The "Movement" is a Chimera

[thuja]

i have commented for kuchinich as a vp. i liked him before i heard of rp. i knew nothing at all about politics except it's generally evil. i thought RP as President could sort out kuchinich on the ideas he has that are not as useful. i like the word chimera.

 

[Corydoras]

Try "thinking" yourself a lunch sometime. Good luck with that!

There are entire industries dependent on freedom of thought. You have nothing substantial to make your case that everything that is important is purely temporal and/or physical.

I can't tell if you're arguing this from the standpoint of the mother, or the child... which is why it should really go ALL the way local; to a decision between the woman and her doctor.

You're simply not understanding that for people for whom abortion is a really important issue, the right to physical integrity is much more important than rights to other property.

 

[FreeTraveler]

There are entire industries dependent on freedom of thought. You have nothing substantial to make your case that everything that is important is purely temporal and/or physical.

I never said that, and I'm sorry you got that impression. As a free person, you have the right to think as you choose, and to enjoy the fruits of your labor that are generated by those thoughts. Thoughts lead to action; denying the fruits of those actions are the ultimate denial of those thoughts, and can lead to death.
If I'm hungry and I decide to climb a tree for a banana, then you steal my banana, I starve. If I don't think of climbing the tree, I starve. It's all inter-related.

On edit: I went back and reread your posts, and I see where you're coming from. My argument isn't that free thought isn't critical, but it's much harder for the government to control your thoughts than to steal the fruits of those thoughts once you've solidified them and put them into practical use. In one sense, taxation IS the theft of your thoughts. If you dream up a new widget and get rich from it, why should somebody be able to steal part of what you earned with your thoughts?

You're simply not understanding that for people for whom abortion is a really important issue, the right to physical integrity is much more important than rights to other property.

Nope, I must be dense here, because I still haven't figured out if you're pro-choice or pro-life. I happen to be pro-liberty, and believe it's up to each woman and her doctor, and has no place in the political process.

 

[FreeTraveler]

i have commented for kuchinich as a vp. i liked him before i heard of rp. i knew nothing at all about politics except it's generally evil. i thought RP as President could sort out kuchinich on the ideas he has that are not as useful. i like the word chimera.

Glad to have you aboard. Dennis thinks it's OK to take what you earn from you and use it for "the greater good". Stay tuned to this discussion, and you'll learn why some of us consider that a very evil idea.

 

[RP4U&ME]

Ok, thanks, I think I get where you're coming from.
Yeah, if you take consent as meaning literally your own personal consent, than I can see what you're arguing. You should have said that you only believe in the parts of the Constitution that you agree with, and oh-by-the-way, you didn't sign it anyway.
Options for change for you don't look too bright. You can either work within the current system that you hate to effect change by electing officials that you believe support your view (good luck with that, RP doesn't go that far), or you can move to another state that has the high level of regard for personal property rights that you crave(better luck).

 

[Independent Operator]

OK, so I'm the one being childish?

Your premises are flawed because they assume no consent.
But there is consent. So end of argument.

Wow, I consented to having my wealth taken. When did i do that?

Actually p2 clearly states "without my consent" not assumed...stated.

next.

You make no sense trying to argue the unarguable. Just admit that you're simple trying justify, because you can not re-define. A is A. It is a Natural Law that can not be bent by your will. Gravity exists my friend.

That is that.

 

[thuja]

Glad to have you aboard. Dennis thinks it's OK to take what you earn from you and use it for "the greater good". Stay tuned to this discussion, and you'll learn why some of us consider that a very evil idea.

thanks. i already consider anything done "for the greater good" as at least very suspicious. i am not for communism.

 

[jorlowitz]

You don't get the point, do you? There are people who believe that the physical integrity of their bodies is more fundamental than taxation.

This discussion seems to be raising meaningless distinctions. If you are a libertarian then you believe the government should never violate your life, body, property (including labor and its profits), thoughts, liberty, etc... There is no KEY or REAL issue. An infringement of personal liberty is an infringement of personal liberty. The only reason the taxation issue would be any different is because work being necessary for survival there is no way to legally escape taxation. The same can be said, however, for a government that has the right to imprison you when it deems you a threat (you liberty is compromised pre-emptively there as well, because your freedom is contingent on the government effectively liking you). I can see an arguable difference because taxes apply to everyone whereas violations of civil liberties only affect the unlucky individual... but who's counting? One is systematic, institutional, and survivable... the other is tyrannical, secretive, and possibly fatal. I still think you can be against either one or both of them and support Ron Paul.

 

[Mesogen]

The income tax is theft and property taxes are theft, but excise taxes and tariffs are not, IMO.

 

[FreeTraveler]

Ok, thanks, I think I get where you're coming from.
Yeah, if you take consent as meaning literally your own personal consent, than I can see what you're arguing. You should have said that you only believe in the parts of the Constitution that you agree with, and oh-by-the-way, you didn't sign it anyway.
Options for change for you don't look too bright. You can either work within the current system that you hate to effect change by electing officials that you believe support your view (good luck with that, RP doesn't go that far), or you can move to another state that has the high level of regard for personal property rights that you crave(better luck).

We're talking philosophy here, and I don't expect to see a truly free society in my lifetime... but if I don't understand the underlying premises of freedom, I can't be consistent in my efforts toward obtaining true freedom for myself and my heirs.

If someone believes the state has a right to my life, how can they eat more than 1000 calories a day or live in anything better than a hovel without dying from the guilt?

I believe that my life is my responsibility, and I am entitled to the rewards that I earn, as well as the responsibility to take care of myself. I live consistent with that philosophy, bounded by restrictions forced on me by the state.

That's why I have no respect for politicians who spout a "for the good of society" philosophy, yet live in huge expensive homes, never miss a meal, and devote their life to stealing from Productive Peter to feed Paul.

 

[FreeTraveler]

The income tax is theft and property taxes are theft, but excise taxes and tariffs are not, IMO.

I have less of an issue with excise taxes myself, because any government at all is going to need revenue to perform services, and if I avail myself of those services, I should be paying a user fee of some sort. Gasoline taxes (more properly user fees) are one example of that. Some anarcho-capitalists argue that all roads should be toll roads, and that police and courts should be self-sustaining. I agree on the police and courts, and think that with the recent gains in technology such as speed passes, toll roads might one day move the costs closer to the user and encourage more competition in transportation modes.

Arguably, we'd have much better mass transit today if the government hadn't subsidized automobiles and trucks extensively in the 40's, 50's and 60's, right up to present day.

Tariffs are still taxes, IMHO. They force you to pay more of your wealth for a product than you would otherwise, and the funds raised by the tariff are spent in ways that you may not choose yourself.

 

[ecliptic]

freedom is messy

You're not going to get ideological purity.

The unstoppable force that is brewing here is much greater than Ron Paul. He is safe because there are now thousands who are already running or building a run for political office. There are millions who are frantically learning about monetary policy and early American history. This is soooooo much bigger than one guy...

... and the gi-normously huge nature of The Restoration .... the "huge tent" aspect of this "thing" .... means ideological purity is unattainable. Freedom is messy. The movement for the Restoration of the Constitution grows exponentially. We are legion.

 

[Corydoras]

Equating tax resistance to murder shows that you have no clue about self-ownership, the sanctity of the individual or the Zero Agression Principle. Watch this little flash animation, then come back and we'll have a reasoned discussion.

http://www.isil.org/resources/philosophy-of-liberty-english.swf

I don't often feel like giving up on a thread, but I'm going to step away from this one, at least for a while.

There are many people who are not libertarians who are backing Ron Paul. I am one of them. If you push the point too far, then many, many people like me are going to leave the Ron Paul movement. If I wanted to support an ideological libertarianism, I would be a Libertarian. I don't and I'm not.

I also think this is the wrong time to raise this issue. Our goal now should be getting Ron Paul elected, and not on insisting on ideological purity among his supporters.

 

[Corydoras]

the gi-normously huge nature of The Restoration .... the "huge tent" aspect of this "thing" .... means ideological purity is unattainable. Freedom is messy. The movement for the Restoration of the Constitution grows exponentially. We are legion.

I hear ya!

But the way things are shaping up, I do not want there to be a split between people who want to focus on the restoration of the American Constitution versus people who believe in a nationless, ahistorical libertarian ideology.

 

[Captain Shays]

The income tax is theft because it assume the government owns your labor..or owns your self and anything the derives from it efforts. That is theft.

How simple can this get?

To amplify your statements consider that if I have four quarters and you have a paper dollar and we both agree that the value of them is the same, if we engage in an exchange,neither of us has gained anything. There was no "income".

Well if what you say is true, which it is, then you being the owners of your labor places a value for doing a certain task, you have not "gained" and "income". You have simply exchanged your labor for something of equal value that I would pay you either in money or something else.

I hope you don't see this as stepping on your toes. I just wanted to agree with you.

 

[MsDoodahs]

Have not read the thread, just the original poll question and first post.

Taxation is theft, and therefore immoral.

 

[FreeTraveler]

I hear ya!

But the way things are shaping up, I do not want there to be a split between people who want to focus on the restoration of the American Constitution versus people who believe in a nationless, ahistorical libertarian ideology.

None of us want that, but it's important to understand the underlying philosophy of government if you want to see substantive change, instead of accepting Obama because he says he'll "change" things. As for libertarian ideology being nationless and ahistorical, if you learn about the Founding Fathers, they were attempting in the Constitution to create as close to a libertarian central government as they felt was possible at the time... and this was before the term "libertarian" had been coined.

 

[Captain Shays]

Jefferson's definition of liberty

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson

 

[RonPaulalways]

I don't believe socialists make up the core of this movement. I believe that the main contingent of this movement that is creating momentum believes in the best principles (constitutionally limited government, individual liberty).

 

[kalami]

Slavery was once allowed by the Constitution too, but that issue has been resolved. What is taxation but part-time slavery? If the fruit of my efforts is to be surrendered, what matter if the recipient be called Master or Civil Servant?

So what about the fruits of your labor that are surrendered because you have to pay more money for orange juice due to frost cutting into supplies? Are you a slave to weather now? I guess the argument to that though is that you can't control weather but taxes are created by people and you can control people?