The End of the All-Male, All-White Cockpit

[jmdrake]

I don't either because it's pretty much a moot issue anyways.

It will be automated in another 20 years or so.

Pilots already are no longer required or even allowed to make rapid cognitive decisions, fly at a basic skill level "hands on", take bold action or, God forbid, fly by the seat of their pants. Individual action is frowned upon. You are a button pusher and soon to be just a monitor, there in case something goes horribly wrong with the systems those buttons and computers are controlling.

But even that is pretty much a dead issue, as the recent 737 MAX crashes proved: too many pilots can no longer fly when the $#@! hits the fan and the "systems" stop working.

Which explains why somebody like United can afford to fill their cockpits with a bunch of wokeness...it doesn't really matter any more.

But it still chaps my ass to know that in New AmeriKa, my son has less of a chance of becoming a professional pilots and my daughter has a much greater chance at the same career, not because one is a better, more competent pilot than the other, but because of their gender.



Yeah, I keep getting told that...unless I'm being told the opposite, that I'm the greatest threat to my own country that exists, and I need to be wiped out.

That'll likely be the last thing I hear before the bullet.

"This is not an assault!"

Yeah. Some time traveler must have gone back to the 1940s and installed fly by wire into the cockpits of the P51 Mustangs flown by the Tuskegee Airmen. I mean there's no way some black pilots back then could have shot down white master race pilots flying jets.



/sarcasm

 

[Anti Federalist]

Yeah. Some time traveler must have gone back to the 1940s and installed fly by wire into the cockpits of the P51 Mustangs flown by the Tuskegee Airmen. I mean there's no way some black pilots back then could have shot down white master race pilots flying jets.



/sarcasm

Not to take anything away from the TA, they were oustanding pilots no doubt.

The fact of the matter is that the P51 was, in a number of ways, a superior fighter.

Lighter and more maneuverable than the Me262, it was jet fighter tech in it's infancy, while the P51 was the ne plus ultra of propeller driven fighters.

The Me262 suffered from a number of design flaws that hampered it's effectiveness a great deal.

 

[acptulsa]

Yeah, the Messerschmitt 262 was strictly an interceptor. Any pilot in one of those who didn't run away from an enemy fighter was a shizakampf who deserved what he invariably got.

 

[sparebulb]

So you're okay with making a straw man argument? Apparently so. For fvcks sake man this argument was already had back in the 1940s with the Tuskegee Airman. They needed a chance to prove that blacks were just as capable of flying as white and they proved it in spades! What keeps blacks from being pilots today? How many have $100,000 which, according to YOUR article, is what it takes just to get started? If you read into your own articles what isn't there, that's not my fault. It's like when you read "They're going to give Fs to white kids and not blacks" into an article that didn't say that at all. I tell you what. If you need me to I'll rent you a copy of the HBO Tuskegee Airman movie as well as Red Tails so you can watch it tonight. And I'll throw in the History Channel documentary on top of it.

I'm speculating here, but I think that the sterling record of the Tuskegee pilots was rooted in that they screened for the best of the best of a large, untapped pool of talent.

I'm also speculating that the training standards were inflexible and perhaps more grueling than for the average flight program.

Along with tough, inflexible standards comes the lack of boo-hoo when someone gets washed out.

Lastly, these men were not selected above their experience level......there was very little to no prior experience level in wartime pilot recruitment....there is only pre-existing aptitude. There are many more flight slots than candidates in wartime. Civilian aviation always has limited slots vs demand for people wanting jobs. Abandoning merit-based hiring into these positions creates a tremendous amount of animosity.

 

[jmdrake]

I'm speculating here, but I think that the sterling record of the Tuskegee pilots was rooted in that they screened for the best of the best of a large, untapped pool of talent.

I'm also speculating that the training standards were inflexible and perhaps more grueling than for the average flight program.

Along with tough, inflexible standards comes the lack of boo-hoo when someone gets washed out.

Lastly, these men were not selected above their experience level......there was very little to no prior experience level in wartime pilot recruitment....there is only pre-existing aptitude. There are many more flight slots than candidates in wartime. Civilian aviation always has limited slots vs demand for people wanting jobs. Abandoning merit-based hiring into these positions creates a tremendous amount of animosity.

Nowhere in the article was there any hint or suggestion of eliminating merit based hiring. Nowhere. If you think that the $100,000 price tag to get into commercial flying isn't artificially limiting a potentially large untapped pool of talent then you are kidding yourself.

 

[sparebulb]

Nowhere in the article was there any hint or suggestion of eliminating merit based hiring. Nowhere. If you think that the $100,000 price tag to get into commercial flying isn't artificially limiting a potentially large untapped pool of talent then you are kidding yourself.

Believe it or not, $100,000 for a training program that has the potential to hire into a company that has automatic flow to a mainline airline is the best deal going in aviation outside of getting into military flight school.

I doubt that there are many young people writing checks for the whole enchilada. The link below indicates that financing is available and payments are deferred as long as the participant is making satisfactory progress. Seems to me that cost is not a barrier.

If I cared more, I would call one of the airline recruitment academies to see what is available to POC's, but just check out this link http://www.aacadetacademy.com/CadetAcademy/Index

 

[Todd]

If I were ever to see I had a female pilot, I'd be like... I'll take the next flight thx

I can assure you from my research that female pilots are the best of the best. Please watch the new documentary Top Gun Maverick.

 

[Invisible Man]

I can assure you from my research that female pilots are the best of the best. Please watch the new documentary Top Gun Maverick.

Or Episodes 7-9 of Star Wars.

I was able to suspend disbelief enough watching those movies to play along with the female lead being a better pilot and light saber fighter than her male counterparts.

But I drew the line with her also being better at reading a map.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Believe it or not, $100,000 for a training program that has the potential to hire into a company that has automatic flow to a mainline airline is the best deal going in aviation outside of getting into military flight school.

I doubt that there are many young people writing checks for the whole enchilada. The link below indicates that financing is available and payments are deferred as long as the participant is making satisfactory progress. Seems to me that cost is not a barrier.

If I cared more, I would call one of the airline recruitment academies to see what is available to POC's, but just check out this link http://www.aacadetacademy.com/CadetAcademy/Index

I just went through all this with my daughter who had a slight interest in an aviation career but really could not cultivate the desire in her to commit to it, which is probably a good thing in the long run.

$100,000 is on the pricey side, but more than likely is what a four year degree program combined with flight training and a an ATP ticket at the end of it all, would cost. Think Embry-Riddle or similar programs or schools.

I came up with a price tag of about $60,000 and a time frame of 18 months by going through an outfit like American Flyers or something similar... [MENTION=991]Matt Collins[/MENTION] was doing this, I don't know how far he got, but that would get you the training and flight time to apply and get accepted to one of the regionals.

For comparison, $100,000 is what you'll pay to go through one of the Merchant Marine academies in the US. There are seven IIRC, the US Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point, New York Maritime Academy, Massachusetts Maritime Academy, Maine Maritime Academy (the best of the bunch I think), Texas Maritime Academy at Texas A&M Galveston, The Great Lakes Maritime Academy, and Cal-Tech Maritime Academy at Oxnard.

You come away from that with a Third Mate's ticket, and a B of S degree. But you'll be another 20 years or more building time and seniority before becoming a captain, if ever, each step from Third, to Second to Chief Mate to Master is years of sea time, more training and more testing.

They tried their damndest to "diversify" as well, including playing fast and loose with testing and training standards, but soon found out that most didn't want to spend the rest of their lives as sea to pursue that path, less so than even the young white men, who usually drop out of deep water sailing after about ten years or so.

I spent 40 years at it, held a "Master Mariner" ticket (until the UN changed the rules and would not allow it anymore), worked every ocean on the globe, and it pretty much broke me.

Point is though, these training costs are not out of line, nor were they put into place to keep poor blacks and woman out of the field. Flying training planes and sailing training ships, building simulators for both and hiring competent training staff ain't cheap.

And is that really where we want to skimp in the name of "diversity"?

In the training of people flying jets and transporting millions of barrels of oil?

 

[Anti Federalist]

Nowhere in the article was there any hint or suggestion of eliminating merit based hiring. Nowhere. If you think that the $100,000 price tag to get into commercial flying isn't artificially limiting a potentially large untapped pool of talent then you are kidding yourself.

Of course not...nobody is ever going to come right out and say it.

But it will happen, because it is happening...sparebulb's a pilot and saw it first hand, so did danke and so have I in my line of work.

Standards will be lowered or fudged or pencil whipped so that a "diversity" box gets checked.

And years ago you could make the case that somebody would die as a result.

But now, like I noted, it's a moot point...there are no "pilots" anymore.

 

[pcosmar]

I have not been Employed since 2006..

I have applied at Walmart as a "Cart Pusher", and was refused..

I applied for a job mucking stalls on a farm,, and couldn't get hired to shovel shit.

I was effectively blackballed for the last 10 good working years I had left.

I can't say there is nothing to it

 

[jmdrake]

I just went through all this with my daughter who had a slight interest in an aviation career but really could not cultivate the desire in her to commit to it, which is probably a good thing in the long run.

$100,000 is on the pricey side, but more than likely is what a four year degree program combined with flight training and a an ATP ticket at the end of it all, would cost. Think Embry-Riddle or similar programs or schools.

I came up with a price tag of about $60,000 and a time frame of 18 months by going through an outfit like American Flyers or something similar... [MENTION=991]Matt Collins[/MENTION] was doing this, I don't know how far he got, but that would get you the training and flight time to apply and get accepted to one of the regionals.

Matt's a pilot now.

For comparison, $100,000 is what you'll pay to go through one of the Merchant Marine academies in the US. There are seven IIRC, the US Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point, New York Maritime Academy, Massachusetts Maritime Academy, Maine Maritime Academy (the best of the bunch I think), Texas Maritime Academy at Texas A&M Galveston, The Great Lakes Maritime Academy, and Cal-Tech Maritime Academy at Oxnard.

You come away from that with a Third Mate's ticket, and a B of S degree. But you'll be another 20 years or more building time and seniority before becoming a captain, if ever, each step from Third, to Second to Chief Mate to Master is years of sea time, more training and more testing.

They tried their damndest to "diversify" as well, including playing fast and loose with testing and training standards, but soon found out that most didn't want to spend the rest of their lives as sea to pursue that path, less so than even the young white men, who usually drop out of deep water sailing after about ten years or so.

Yeah.....unless you've got some women on that tanker you can count me out. At least airlines have stewardesses and they land every day.

I spent 40 years at it, held a "Master Mariner" ticket (until the UN changed the rules and would not allow it anymore), worked every ocean on the globe, and it pretty much broke me.

Point is though, these training costs are not out of line, nor were they put into place to keep poor blacks and woman out of the field. Flying training planes and sailing training ships, building simulators for both and hiring competent training staff ain't cheap.

I didn't say they were. I'm just saying there is nothing in the article to imply that there is some need to "lower standards" in order for there to more blacks in those position. The Williams sisters have proven that blacks can play tennis. Author Ashe did the same years before. And yet pro tennis still doesn't look like the NBA and I don't expect it will any time soon. And tennis is as cheap of a sport to take up as basketball....provided you have access to a court, which isn't any more expensive to make than a basketball court. (There are more basketball courts in black neighborhoods than tennis courts, but you can find tennis courts if you look long and hard enough.) If the Williams sisters opened up an inner city tennis camp to get more blacks in tennis that wouldn't bother me and I wouldn't automatically think they were trying to get the world tennis association to lower standards. And if Larry Bird opened up a suburban basketball camp to get more whites into the NBA that wouldn't bother me either. But I guess that's just me.

And is that really where we want to skimp in the name of "diversity"?

In the training of people flying jets and transporting millions of barrels of oil?

No reason to believe anyone is wanting to skimp anything. That's just a conclusion you jumped to. Anyhow, if you want more pilots, get more people playing Microsoft Flight Simulator. Every black person I know who stuck with that game for more than a year became a pilot. And at least one became a commercial pilot. Me I didn't see the point of a game where I flew a plane that didn't have machine guns and/or missiles.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Matt's a pilot now.

He is...well I'll be dipped.

You know, never mind the rest, I'll cede the point if you want, I don't feel like arguing about it right now.

I'm actually quite elated at that news.

Good for him, hope he has a long, safe and successful career.

Thanks for the good news.

 

[jmdrake]

He is...well I'll be dipped.

You know, never mind the rest, I'll cede the point if you want, I don't feel like arguing about it right now.

I'm actually quite elated at that news.

Good for him, hope he has a long, safe and successful career.

Thanks for the good news.

I'll tell him you said that the next time I talk to him. And I think this was a good and fruitful conversation. When I have grandkids, by the time they have hand eye coordination I'm building them one of these.



On second thought. Why wait? I'll build one for myself.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Ok guys, what issue do you have with female pilots? Personally, I want the pilots flying any plane I am on, to be the most skilled available. I don't care what sex or color they are.

 

[Todd]

Ok guys, what issue do you have with female pilots? Personally, I want the pilots flying any plane I am on, to be the most skilled available. I don't care what sex or color they are.

I think it's just a bunch of guys pulling each others chain. I personally don't care.

Good to hear you .

 

[Matt Collins]

It will be automated in another 20 years or so.

Not even close.

A trained monkey could fly an airplane; it isn't that hard to program from a coding perspective. However pilots get paid to make decisions. And AI is many many many decades from being able to make the same level decision making as a human, if at all.

Not to mention the psychological, marketing, and regulatory factors which are a bigger hurdle than the technilogical factors.

You'll start to see cargo airlines maybe start to have drones or remotely piloted aircraft. But as far as passenger airlines? Nope, no time in the foreseeable future.

But even that is pretty much a dead issue, as the recent 737 MAX crashes proved: too many pilots can no longer fly when the shit hits the fan and the "systems" stop working.

The pilots in those crashes were poorly trained on how to disable a system that was faulty. MCAS took control of the plane and it didn't matter what their stick and rudder skill level was if they couldn't disable the faulted safety overrides.

But it still chaps my ass to know that in New AmeriKa, my son has less of a chance of becoming a professional pilots and my daughter has a much greater chance at the same career, not because one is a better, more competent pilot than the other, but because of their gender.

For the next 10 years, at least, they will be hiring everyone they can.

 

[Matt Collins]

Nowhere in the article was there any hint or suggestion of eliminating merit based hiring. Nowhere. If you think that the $100,000 price tag to get into commercial flying isn't artificially limiting a potentially large untapped pool of talent then you are kidding yourself.

If you go to one or two of the big flight schools, loans from Sallie Mae are given. Anyone can become a pilot as long as you don't have a disqualifying condition.

 

[Matt Collins]

I just went through all this with my daughter who had a slight interest in an aviation career but really could not cultivate the desire in her to commit to it, which is probably a good thing in the long run.

That's really the crux of the problem, young kids don't have much interest anymore. Hell, most of them don't even want to learn to drive.

This will probably start leading to cabotage, if anything.

$100,000 is on the pricey side, but more than likely is what a four year degree program combined with flight training and a an ATP ticket at the end of it all, would cost. Think Embry-Riddle or similar programs or schools.

No, a Pt 141 university BS + flight training is about $200k now. It is nearly impossible to get your tickets for less than $100k.... the only trick to it (besides military) is to buy your own plane and hire a flight instructor... and then sell the plane when you're done.

I came up with a price tag of about $60,000 and a time frame of 18 months by going through an outfit like American Flyers or something similar... @Matt Collins was doing this, I don't know how far he got, but that would get you the training and flight time to apply and get accepted to one of the regionals.

I am a commercial pilot but at the moment I'm back working in politics due to a series of unfortunate events (layoffs, mergers, injury, covid, etc). However I'm actively looking to get into another flying job again. I started in 2016, got all of my ratings in 8 months (I'm not an instructor).