Teenager killed by neighborhood watch captain

Doesnt matter if it is about race or not. All murders are hate crimes. I want to know if the kid lived in that gated community or not. Also, if the kid attacked him Id say it was the kid who acted in self defense. The guy was armed and following him at night. That kid was scared as hell and have every fucking right to defend himself against that guy. That guy should be charged with stalking, and at least 2nd degree murder case closed. This is outrageous. He follows someone at night with a gun when the person hes following defends himself he kills him and claims self defense. Thats like someone breaking into your house at night and when you go to hit him with the baseball bat he shoots you and claims self defense and the cops let him go. OUTRAGEOUS!!!
 
The charges were NOT dropped! They were expunged!

From the article:

Yet public records showed that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later expunged.

What's the difference you ask? Well most things don't go to trial these days. Sometimes prosecutors will offer defendants something called "expungeble probation" in order to get them to plead guilty or no contest. If you keep your nose clear for the required period of time (usually a year) the charge is wiped off your record. But it is not the same as the charges being dropped.

We are both making assumptions based on this article: I am assuming that the charge was dropped, since it says the charge was expunged, and makes no mention of a conviction; while you are assuming that it was a conviction that was expunged, although the article makes no reference to a conviction. Either an arrest or a conviction can be expunged. Unless you have knowledge that there was a conviction, you are jumping to far greater conclusions than I did.

It is not my intention to defend this guy, only to point out that a default charge, not followed by a conviction, is not sufficient evidence to convict the guy in an unrelated case. Zimmerman might be the devil incarnate, but I can't determine that based on such a prior charge, and neither can anyone else.
 
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The pictures of the youngman look like he was in middle school when they were took yet he was 17. That the lable of racist is flying and ...Moreover, the gunlaw in Florida is being demagoged. This smells like a classic Left wing Statist media blitz.
 
We are both making assumptions based on this article: I am assuming that the charge was dropped, since it says the charge was expunged, and makes no mention of a conviction; while you are assuming that it was a conviction that was expunged, although the article makes no reference to a conviction. Either an arrest or a conviction can be expunged. Unless you have knowledge that there was a conviction, you are jumping to far greater conclusions than I did.

It is not my intention to defend this guy, only to point out that a default charge, not followed by a conviction, is not sufficient evidence to convict the guy in an unrelated case. Zimmerman might be the devil incarnate, but I can't determine that based on such a prior charge, and neither can anyone else.

His past record is irrelevant. You people remind me of the spin doctors on tv. Someone had a speeding ticket, cited for jaywalking and cited for music too loud one time. On TV you say. Oh this perp has had several brushes with the law in the past. He has a police record. What was he arrested for resisting arrest? Makes sense. You go by what he did to the kid. Not what he did in the past. Its clear. He stalked the kid, the child defended himself, he shot him and claimed self defense. That guy should be in jail. Common sense. Is everyone stupid? I am completely horrified what it has come to. Everyones brainwashed.
 
We are both making assumptions based on this article: I am assuming that the charge was dropped, since it says the charge was expunged, and makes no mention of a conviction; while you are assuming that it was a conviction that was expunged, although the article makes no reference to a conviction. Either an arrest or a conviction can be expunged. Unless you have knowledge that there was a conviction, you are jumping to far greater conclusions than I did.

It is not my intention to defend this guy, only to point out that a default charge, not followed by a conviction, is not sufficient evidence to convict the guy in an unrelated case. Zimmerman might be the devil incarnate, but I can't determine that based on such a prior charge, and neither can anyone else.

Fair enough. I'm simply going by my own (admittedly limited) legal experience. In Tennessee the word "expunged" means expungible probation. It doesn't mean "charges were dropped". But this is Florida so it could have a different meaning there. Also as reporters aren't lawyers they could have used the wrong term. Regardless, depending on the circumstances dropped charges or even expunged charges can be used as evidence in a later proceeding. It would depend on the type of proceeding and if the defendant chose to testify.
 
His past record is irrelevant. You people remind me of the spin doctors on tv. Someone had a speeding ticket, cited for jaywalking and cited for music too loud one time. On TV you say. Oh this perp has had several brushes with the law in the past. He has a police record. What was he arrested for resisting arrest? Makes sense. You go by what he did to the kid. Not what he did in the past. Its clear. He stalked the kid, the child defended himself, he shot him and claimed self defense. That guy should be in jail. Common sense. Is everyone stupid? I am completely horrified what it has come to. Everyones brainwashed.

I agree. I think the problem with these discussions is the tendency to treat what is really a policy question as a "online trial" with people playing defense attorney. If I was Zimmerman's attorney and this went to trial I would most certainly try to keep his past run ins with the law out. If I was a prosecutor I would do my best to get it in. That's one reason why defendants often do not testify in their own defense even if they really are innocent. Who knows what might get brought out in cross examination?

But the bigger policy question is, why is he not being arrested? Is this a proper application of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law as written? If yes then it clearly should be amended. If no then it needs to be clarified. Some (old) thoughts on the law.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html

Here's the part of the law in question:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


So go through the elements:
1) Was Zimmerman engaged in unlawful activity? No apparently.
2) Was he attacked? Well...that's where the argument is. And that's why this should go to trial IMO. Did Travon finally get pissed at Zimmerman, not knowing Zimmerman had a gun, and decide to beat down this guy he legitimately thought was stalking him? Or did Zimmerman initiate physical contact? (Who punched who first?) A jury should decide that.
3) Did Zimmerman reasonably believe that deadly force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm to himself? Well Travon had no weapon. According to a witness he had overpowered Zimmerman and was beating him up. (Zimmerman sounds like a real punk by the way considering that he couldn't handle a teenager that he outweighed by 100 lbs). This is another matter that a jury should decide.
4) Was anybody else in danger? No. Zimmerman hasn't even alleged that.
5) Was a forcible felony being prevented? No. (I assume "forcible felony" = rape, robbery or kidnapping).

Based on the law as written, prosecutors and police in Florida are not correctly applying it by saying they lack probable cause to arrest Zimmerman.

But here's how the law could/should be clarified.

1) Initiating a disturbance negates the self defense presumption. You shouldn't be able to pick a fight and the automagically claim "self defense". Yes there might be circumstances where it's still legitimate self defense, but you should have the burden to show that.

2) No self defense presumption for a disproportionate use of force. I call this the "take your beating like a man" clause. Zimmerman shot Travon because he was getting his butt whupped. If Travon had pulled a knife or gun that would be a different story. Which reminds me. I wonder how this would be playing out in the legal system and the media now if Travon had pulled a gun when he saw Zimmerman pulling his and killed Zimmerman? That would arguably be a better self defense claim. But would Travon now be facing murder charges as a young black male who killed a neighborhood watch captain?
 
The pictures of the youngman look like he was in middle school when they were took yet he was 17. That the lable of racist is flying and ...Moreover, the gunlaw in Florida is being demagoged. This smells like a classic Left wing Statist media blitz.

You've missed the point if you think there's still a difference between left wing media and right wing media. It's all designed to keep the wool over our eyes and only let us see what they want us to see.
 
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The pictures of the youngman look like he was in middle school when they were took yet he was 17. That the lable of racist is flying and ...Moreover, the gunlaw in Florida is being demagoged. This smells like a classic Left wing Statist media blitz.

Irrelevant. I've seen 17 year olds who look like they're 12 and 12 year olds who look like their 17. As for the "stand your ground" law it's not a gun law. It's a self defense law. It says nothing about guns but instead talks about deadly force. The law applies the same whether the deadly force used is a gun or a knife or a baseball bat. What is clear in this case is that the result is wrong. Was the law poorly written or has it been poorly applied? That's still an open question.
 
As for the "stand your ground" law it's not a gun law. It's a self defense law.

This is truth.^

But the only person in this case with ""stand your Ground" grounds was this kid.

From the initial call of "suspicious person" To the confrontation and shooting.
Zimmerman was wrong.
The call was wrong.
Following was wrong.
Getting out of his vehicle and confronting him was wrong.
And shooting an unarmed kid was wrong.

This is at best, an Authoritarian out of control. and that is giving him all the benefit of doubt.
 
Fair enough. I'm simply going by my own (admittedly limited) legal experience. In Tennessee the word "expunged" means expungible probation. It doesn't mean "charges were dropped". But this is Florida so it could have a different meaning there. Also as reporters aren't lawyers they could have used the wrong term. Regardless, depending on the circumstances dropped charges or even expunged charges can be used as evidence in a later proceeding. It would depend on the type of proceeding and if the defendant chose to testify.

In FL, dismissed charges are eligible for expunction.

As you say, whether his expunged charge would be admissible as evidence of predisposition would be a matter for the court to decide.

My own opinion is that such a prior charge is usually used to justify an arrest for which there usually exists no other justification. But, when such a charge is not trumped up, it is taken too seriously to avoid prosecution. The fact (as it appears) that Zimmerman, faced with such a charge, was able to avoid prosecution is probably evidence that he was innocent of the charge (because of the nature of the charge).

Again, I say this not to defend Zimmerman's actions in this case, but only to call attention to the folly of presuming his guilt, based solely on such a prior charge, especially when there is no evidence that the charge was even prosecuted.

If Zimmerman is convicted, even in the court of public opinion, it should be based on the facts of THIS case.

Having said that, there is an element of the FL law I find troubling. FL's list of forcible felonies could include almost any perceived threat, from the heinous to the frivolous.

Florida forcible felonies are:

- Kidnapping
- Murder
- Manslaughter
- Sexual Battery (Rape)
- Arson
- Treason
- Robbery
- Burglary
- Carjacking
- Home Invasion
- Aggravated Battery
- Aggravated Assault
- Aggravated Stalking
-Any other felony that involves the use or threat of violence against any person
 
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This is truth.^

But the only person in this case with ""stand your Ground" grounds was this kid.

From the initial call of "suspicious person" To the confrontation and shooting.
Zimmerman was wrong.
The call was wrong.
Following was wrong.
Getting out of his vehicle and confronting him was wrong.
And shooting an unarmed kid was wrong.

This is at best, an Authoritarian out of control. and that is giving him all the benefit of doubt.

See:

pcosmar made a solid case for Zimmerman's wrongdoing, without ever bringing up a prior dropped "assaulting an officer" charge.

+rep!
 
See:

pcosmar made a solid case for Zimmerman's wrongdoing, without ever bringing up a prior dropped "assaulting an officer" charge.

+rep!

Thank you.
I don't often think in terms of "legal or illegal", but more in terms of "right and wrong"

(though I do recognize current "law" as a tactical consideration)
 
Total douche bag...he confronted(most likely started a fight) a teenager and got into a scuffle. Stupid people shouldn't own guns.
 
Universal condemnation, assumption of guilt, and claims of understood intent: this thread sure is an interesting read.

I don't know any more about this case than is posted in this thread, but if the guy wasn't arrested at the scene or in the following month after/during the investigation, there has to be some compelling information. I do know that I'm not going to be whipped into a fury by Al Sharpton and the Huffington Post; I'd rather wait and see.
 
I don't either. But his comments could be used to suggest intent. That would take it from 2nd to 1st degree murder.

I agree, so put the guy on trial and move on.......

Letting the race baiters try the case in the media is horse-shit.
 
Universal condemnation, assumption of guilt, and claims of understood intent: this thread sure is an interesting read.

I don't know any more about this case than is posted in this thread, but if the guy wasn't arrested at the scene or in the following month after/during the investigation, there has to be some compelling information. I do know that I'm not going to be whipped into a fury by Al Sharpton and the Huffington Post; I'd rather wait and see.

There is compelling evidence to arrest Zimmerman. There is plenty of evidence in the many 911 calls during that time that cast enough doubt on Zimmerman's story to send this to trial. Yet he's still not arrested. Sure, the evidence may fall through in court, but this should definitely go to trial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WI4x2JPcOA

You can hear the someone screaming (I'm not saying it was the kid, but why would an armed man be screaming like that?) in the background, and then it stops abruptly with the gunshot.
 
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