Swiss vote to ban construction of minarets on mosques

[lester1/2jr]

thread from shiachat

thread

muslim site I go to

 

[Dieseler]

Do you know what the term "discriminating" means? You don't have to completely ban a religion to discriminate against it. Let's say for arguments sake that Ron Paul Forums were barred by the government from using banner advertising but was still allowed to operate. If only RPF was barred by such a law that would be discrimination. The Swiss haven't banned Islam but the is a clear easy case of discrimination. If this was simply about "architecture" than all such architecture. Look at the following and try to tell me with a straight face that banning the minaret but not banning the steeple somehow isn't discrimination.

Yeah life sucks. We're not happy for having to take so many economic refugees thanks to NAFTA either. But passing a law banning private signs in Spanish would also be discrimination and also be wrong. If these foreign countries are tired of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars they should lobby to have the Nobel committee strip Obama of his peace prize.

They need to tear down that ugly shit in the foreground.
Doesn't fit the landscape.

 

[Fozz]

Some people around here need some sensitivity training. It's simple. You move to Switzerland, you adopt every aspect of the Swiss culture. You don't like it, you butt home. And I don't care about Muslims boycotting anything.

Abraham, are Muslims standing for allowing Christians to enter Kaaba? I will give a flying fuck about Muslims in Europe when I will be able to enter Kaaba, ok? Or the building of a cool cathedral near it? And don't give me the bullshit about how good Christians have it in Muslims lands. Go do your taqqiya somewhere else.

Fozz, 70% of the British Muslims want Sharia. Turkey doesn't only because of the Turkish army. And this movement has no future considering it supports a "religion" that touts capital punishment for apostasy, for example.

By the way, if you don't know about an issue, shut up. I know why the Swiss passed this law and it's not due to bigotry. Actually only a bigot would be against this law while touting a religion based on bigotry. Tolerating the intolerant is moronic.

Liberty Star, the Swiss aren't in the EU.

You are one of the most absurd people I have ever seen here. This movement does not support any religion over another, and your quotes around that word show how utterly ignorant you are. You are the one who knows nothing about international politics so you should follow your own advice and shut up. Finally, your comment stating that only a bigot would be against this law is one of the most idiotic statements I have ever read. You have no business associating yourself in any way with liberty.

 

[jmdrake]

They need to tear down that ugly shit in the foreground.
Doesn't fit the landscape.

Some would find the spire in the background "ugly shit". They are both essentially phallic symbols that date back to the Egyptians or before. There's really nothing "Christian" about spires. Christian churches have simpl$y been conned into accepting them. Get rid of both or keep them booth.

Please read: http://www.remnantofgod.org/steeple.htm

 

[BlackTerrel]

Do you know what the term "discriminating" means? You don't have to completely ban a religion to discriminate against it. Let's say for arguments sake that Ron Paul Forums were barred by the government from using banner advertising but was still allowed to operate. If only RPF was barred by such a law that would be discrimination. The Swiss haven't banned Islam but the is a clear easy case of discrimination. If this was simply about "architecture" than all such architecture. Look at the following and try to tell me with a straight face that banning the minaret but not banning the steeple somehow isn't discrimination.

This was a specific fuck you to a specific group of people for no reason other than their religion. People can try to twist it to be something else but that is a joke - there is no other reason for such a move.

 

[paulim]

Good for the swiss. Not so much the law itself. Especially that they don't give a damn about PC, the EU and UN. Funny to see people here want the international organisations to revise a bottom up decision. :o:o:o

 

[klamath]

Why don't we concentrate on our American problems and let the Swiss deal with theirs. Why is it any of our business what the hell the Swiss do? This thread is a little to over the top in judging another country. The vast majority of us feel it was a wrong vote as far as freedom but it is a foreign country, time to move on. It is this kind of attitude that drives foreign interventionism from our country.
If I start posting threads on here about women being stoned to death for adultry in Iran I am sure I would be rightfully flamed for stirring hate for a region of the world we have no business in.
Isn't it time we move back to correcting our problems and let the Swiss deal with theirs?

 

[Fozz]

Why don't we concentrate on our American problems and let the Swiss deal with theirs. Why is it any of our business what the hell the Swiss do? This thread is a little to over the top in judging another country. The vast majority of us feel it was a wrong vote as far as freedom but it is a foreign country, time to move on. It is this kind of attitude that drives foreign interventionism from our country.
If I start posting threads on here about women being stoned to death for adultry in Iran I am sure I would be rightfully flamed for stirring hate for a region of the world we have no business in.
Isn't it time we move back to correcting our problems and let the Swiss deal with theirs?

I strongly oppose this ban but I am not comfortable with the idea of international institutions overturning it.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Why don't we concentrate on our American problems and let the Swiss deal with theirs. Why is it any of our business what the hell the Swiss do? This thread is a little to over the top in judging another country. The vast majority of us feel it was a wrong vote as far as freedom but it is a foreign country, time to move on. It is this kind of attitude that drives foreign interventionism from our country.
If I start posting threads on here about women being stoned to death for adultry in Iran I am sure I would be rightfully flamed for stirring hate for a region of the world we have no business in.
Isn't it time we move back to correcting our problems and let the Swiss deal with theirs?

It's none of our business but it is a fucked up law. A woman being stoned for adultery in Iran is fucked up too.

 

[Danke]

A woman being stoned for adultery in Iran is fucked up too.

Kinda strange they do that when they supposedly revere Jesus as one of the prophets.

 

[AutoDas]

Do you know what the term "discriminating" means? You don't have to completely ban a religion to discriminate against it. Let's say for arguments sake that Ron Paul Forums were barred by the government from using banner advertising but was still allowed to operate. If only RPF was barred by such a law that would be discrimination. The Swiss haven't banned Islam but the is a clear easy case of discrimination. If this was simply about "architecture" than all such architecture. Look at the following and try to tell me with a straight face that banning the minaret but not banning the steeple somehow isn't discrimination.

I don't disagree as long as you're also against zoning laws because this is discrimination against architecture.

Yeah life sucks. We're not happy for having to take so many economic refugees thanks to NAFTA either. But passing a law banning private signs in Spanish would also be discrimination and also be wrong. If these foreign countries are tired of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars they should lobby to have the Nobel committee strip Obama of his peace prize.

The solution is the same. Get rid of the welfare state. [LINK]

 

[TGGRV]

It's amusing to me that people here who cry about the US telling people in the Middle East how they should solve their issues are so hypocritical that they want to tell the Swiss how to solve theirs. According to polls, Germans and Italians would vote the same if they got a referendum. Or that people on here cry about Tibet's right of self-determination and do whatever they want while deny the right of others to do the same. Actually, you are no different than any of the group that forces their way on others - you just have different opinions that you want to force on them.


“The minaret isn’t just the symbol of a religion but of a totally different culture. Large parts of the Islamic world don’t share our basic European values: the legacy of the Enlightenment, the equality of man and woman, the separation of church and state, a justice system independent of the Bible or the Koran and the refusal to impose one’s own beliefs on others with ‘fire and the sword.’ Another factor is likely to have influenced the Swiss vote: Nowhere is life made harder for Christians than in Islamic countries. Those who are intolerant themselves cannot expect unlimited tolerance from others.”

By the way, Abraham, the Nazis were actually inspired by Islam. Where do you think the practice of making Jews(the Nazis didn't mind Christians) wear distinct markings came from, in order to be easily identified for persecution? Oops. And the solution is easy. If you identify with Switzerland more than Islam, then you will stay, if not you will emigrate(in order to be part of a nation, you have to share a common culture, values, language and more or less ethnicity, not just live on a territory like the PC crowd thinks and voting rights actually should be granted based on being part of that nation and willing to pledge yourself to it). And stop acting like Islam is a race. It's like saying that fascists don't choose to be fascists. Obviously, there's the problem that you people want to kill people who commit apostasy.

By the way, I was amused by the Muslim Brotherhood commentary on tolerance and the rest of the claptrap. I'm curious, what are they doing about changing the Quran's duality regarding to the treatment of believers and Kafirs, for example or the treatment of Christians in Muslim countries.

It's simple. You want to stay in Europe, you adapt to the way Europeans are. I'm going to Dubai next week and I won't make out in public with my boyfriend because that's the way their country goes about it. It's pretty common sense that I have no claim in telling Middle Easterns how to rule their countries and I expect them to shut the fuck up about how Europeans rule theirs.

 

[prmd142]

It's amusing to me that people here who cry about the US telling people in the Middle East how they should solve their issues are so hypocritical that they want to tell the Swiss how to solve theirs. According to polls, Germans and Italians would vote the same if they got a referendum. Or that people on here cry about Tibet's right of self-determination and do whatever they want while deny the right of others to do the same. Actually, you are no different than any of the group that forces their way on others - you just have different opinions that you want to force on them.


“The minaret isn’t just the symbol of a religion but of a totally different culture. Large parts of the Islamic world don’t share our basic European values: the legacy of the Enlightenment, the equality of man and woman, the separation of church and state, a justice system independent of the Bible or the Koran and the refusal to impose one’s own beliefs on others with ‘fire and the sword.’ Another factor is likely to have influenced the Swiss vote: Nowhere is life made harder for Christians than in Islamic countries. Those who are intolerant themselves cannot expect unlimited tolerance from others.”

By the way, Abraham, the Nazis were actually inspired by Islam. Where do you think the practice of making Jews(the Nazis didn't mind Christians) wear distinct markings came from, in order to be easily identified for persecution? Oops. And the solution is easy. If you identify with Switzerland more than Islam, then you will stay, if not you will emigrate(in order to be part of a nation, you have to share a common culture, values, language and more or less ethnicity, not just live on a territory like the PC crowd thinks and voting rights actually should be granted based on being part of that nation and willing to pledge yourself to it). And stop acting like Islam is a race. It's like saying that fascists don't choose to be fascists. Obviously, there's the problem that you people want to kill people who commit apostasy.

By the way, I was amused by the Muslim Brotherhood commentary on tolerance and the rest of the claptrap. I'm curious, what are they doing about changing the Quran's duality regarding to the treatment of believers and Kafirs, for example or the treatment of Christians in Muslim countries.

It's simple. You want to stay in Europe, you adapt to the way Europeans are. I'm going to Dubai next week and I won't make out in public with my boyfriend because that's the way their country goes about it. It's pretty common sense that I have no claim in telling Middle Easterns how to rule their countries and I expect them to shut the fuck up about how Europeans rule theirs.

+1

I firmly believe every man has a right to life, liberty & property... and that includes the freedom to follow your religion!

but when someone's right to his religion crosses roads with my rights then I'm not the one to take it bending over... no man who believes in the idea of individual liberty will... I agree there are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.

I can't believe members of this forum condemn the action taken BY PEOPLE themselves & want THE GOVERNMENT to overturn the vote. What happened to 'more power to the people' & 'government, get out of our lives'

 

[LibertyEagle]

This is yet another example of what a sovereign nation decides to do, or not do, is none of our business.

 

[BlackTerrel]

This is yet another example of what a sovereign nation decides to do, or not do, is none of our business.

I think most everyone agrees that it's not our business to go over there and change their laws by force. But we can give commentary that it is a stupid law.

 

[raiha]

So if we want the freedom to be who we are, why should not all other human beings have the freedom to be who they are? Why can't we all be 'us' rather than 'us v. them?'

For the record, I lived in Switzerland on and off for a bit and my Jewish Swiss nearly father-in-law said it was a Swiss idea to force the Jews to wear the Star of David to identify them. He had to run from the Nazis himself so i guess he knew what he was talking about.
They are very odd human beings are the Swiss. If ever you could call a nation OCD, it would be Switzerland. Having said that, they have great ski-slopes, fantastic schlumliflumli and excellent trains.

 

[jmdrake]

By the way, Abraham, the Nazis were actually inspired by Islam. Where do you think the practice of making Jews(the Nazis didn't mind Christians) wear distinct markings came from, in order to be easily identified for persecution?

Wrong. Hitler was inspired by Hinduism. Where do you think the term "Aryan" came from? Also the swazstika is a Hindu symbol.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Priestess-Savitri-Hindu-Aryan-Neo-Nazism/dp/0814731112

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Also Hitler did persecute Christians that didn't conform. And Hitler persecuted gypies. Gypsies are either Christian or Muslim.

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/romgypsies.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
Nazi Germany

Hitler and the Nazis enjoyed widespread support from traditional Christian communities, mainly due to a common cause against the anti-religious German Bolsheviks. Once in power, the Nazis moved to consolidate their power over the German churches and bring them in line with Nazi ideals. The Third Reich founded their own version of Christianity called Positive Christianity which made major changes in its interpretation of the Bible which said that Jesus Christ was the son of God, but was not a Jew and claimed that Christ despised Jews, and that the Jews were the ones solely responsible for Christ's death. Thus, the Nazi government consolidated religious power, using allies to consolidate Protestant churches into the Protestant Reich Church, which was effectively an arm of the Nazi Party.

Dissenting Christians went underground and formed the Confessing Church, which was persecuted as a subversive group by the Nazi government. Many of its leaders were arrested and sent to concentration camps, and left the underground mostly leaderless. Church members continued to engage in various forms of resistance, including hiding Jews during the Holocaust and various attempts, largely unsuccessful, to prod the Christian community to speak out on the part of the Jews.

 

[bobbyw24]

Thanks for this post, John

My father [and his entire family] was put in a concentration camp because his father was part of the German Catholic Anti-Hitler resistance.

 

[Meatwasp]

I think the Ron Paul members of this forum is the most argumentative people I have ever met. Zeez

 

[raiha]

Hey Meatwasp, argumentative is good...it helps to clarify thinking...When it gets acrimonious because another person does not share ones views is when it becomes questionable. Having said that, some fools require a bollocking from time to time and i include myself in there.