Swiss vote to ban construction of minarets on mosques

[Danke]

So the Swiss State, as well as the entire religious establishment, opposed the measure but it passed anyway?



I just became a fan of democracy. Even mob rule can work out sometimes

AmericaFyeah92, where ya been?

 

[Pericles]

So the Swiss State, as well as the entire religious establishment, opposed the measure but it passed anyway?



I just became a fan of democracy. Even mob rule can work out sometimes

The vote to join the UN barely made it 50.1 to 49.9 against, and overturning this vote could lead to a vote to leave the UN. Joining the EU gets beat by 2 to 1 every time. Who knows, could even lead to quitting the Schlengen treaty (passport checks between countries) if the Swiss public gets really mad.

 

[Liberty Star]

Even mob rule can work out sometimes

Without any rational thinking, mob rule always fail in the longrun.

Recent examples of mob rule that led to freedom in Iraq resulted in election of son of a black arab muslim man to the White House and most of that mob is now in constant state of agitatation and unhappiness and who knows for how many decades it would last.
Other major recent example of mob democracy of late 1930s in Germany has resulted in a lingering state of guilt for almost whole western world and still has not fully coped back to normalcy. Short term emotional irrationalities never pay in the long run.

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

AmericaFyeah92, where ya been?

cashin' checks and breakin' necks, what else?

I'm looking to get back into this place haha. I've been perusing the past week it seems WWAAAYYY better: more intelligent discussion, friendly-er, less...extreme.

And there's just so much happening now it's hard NOT to rant about it on the internet

 

[BlackTerrel]

The poster is correct. Do you really believe all the neo-cons yelling ("frothing" at the mouth?) about how all Muslims really just want to take over the world and institute Sharia Law over the US? I sure hope not. As Fozz points out, there's plenty of Muslim countries where Sharia Law isn't even in place.

Can you point out all the neo-cons who have said that all Muslims want to take over the world? Name three.

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

Can you point out all the neo-cons who have said that all Muslims want to take over the world? Name three.

Are you seriously saying you've never heard "They hate our way of life," or "Islamofascists", or "They won't stop until the White House"??

They are too refined to say "All muslims want to take over the world," but that's the message. According to them, we are facing irrational religious fascists who are threatening all of Western civilization. They clearly misunderstand the DEFENSIVE jihad we are facing, compared to the OFFENSIVE one they imagine.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Are you seriously saying you've never heard "They hate our way of life," or "Islamofascists", or "They won't stop until the White House"??

They are too refined to say "All muslims want to take over the world," but that's the message. According to them, we are facing irrational religious fascists who are threatening all of Western civilization. They clearly misunderstand the DEFENSIVE jihad we are facing, compared to the OFFENSIVE one they imagine.

To say that "all neocons are saying that all muslims want to take over the world" and then complaining about frothing at the mouth is a bit ironic no?

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

^save your irony for good causes!

Try not to get offended on behalf of neocons

 

[devil21]

Can you point out all the neo-cons who have said that all Muslims want to take over the world? Name three.

How the hell can I do that? That's just a stupid post. I don't know every person in the country. However, we both know what the "mainstream" view of Republicans is regarding their opinions of muslims. Stop being so disingenuous. Your rhetorical questions, with an absence of any of your own substance, is getting tiring lately.

Nevermind that you completely misinterpreted my original post and put words in my mouth again. I said "all of the neo-cons that are yelling", not "all of the neo-cons are yelling". There is a difference but once again you're so eager to jump on other posters that you don't take the time to comprehend what you've read and formulate a response based on the post, not what you thought you read. Reading comprehension would help you greatly.

The poster is correct. Do you really believe all the neo-cons yelling ("frothing" at the mouth?) about how all Muslims really just want to take over the world and institute Sharia Law over the US? I sure hope not. As Fozz points out, there's plenty of Muslim countries where Sharia Law isn't even in place.

Reread.

 

[BlackTerrel]

How the hell can I do that? That's just a stupid post. I don't know every person in the country.

You don't need to know every person in the country. I said name three who said what you attributed to them. Fuck it name one.

However, we both know what the "mainstream" view of Republicans is regarding their opinions of muslims.

If mainstream Republicans hated Muslims they would find their rights under assault in this country (as they are in Switzerland) and George Bush wouldn't be saying "Islam is a religion of peace". The fact is - America is a very tolerant place.

Nevermind that you completely misinterpreted my original post and put words in my mouth again. I said "all of the neo-cons that are yelling", not "all of the neo-cons are yelling". There is a difference but once again you're so eager to jump on other posters that you don't take the time to comprehend what you've read and formulate a response based on the post, not what you thought you read. Reading comprehension would help you greatly.

Perhaps you should read your own post. You said exactly what I said you did. Regardless show me a neocon who is yelling that all Muslims want to take over the world and implement sharia law in the US.

The fact is Switzerland just passed an incredibly stupid and intolerant law. I like to be thankful that in the US we don't judge entire groups of people based on the actions of a few. The US suffered terrorist attacks, a number of them, but we didn't act like idiots. Switzerland has never had an issue but they responded this way. One of many reasons I am proud to be an American.

 

[BlackTerrel]

^save your irony for good causes!

Try not to get offended on behalf of neocons

I'm not offended. I just don't believe that there are these group of people "out to get Muslims". I call bullshit.

 

[Fozz]

Can you point out all the neo-cons who have said that all Muslims want to take over the world? Name three.

I will go ahead:

Pamela Geller
Virgil Goode
David Horowitz

Why are you defending neoconservatism?

 

[Fozz]

Here is an excerpt from wikipedia on Virgil Goode.

Goode voted in 2007 against a resolution opposing the increase in troop numbers in Iraq, saying that he didn't want to "aid and assist the Islamic jihadists who want the green flag of the crescent and star to wave over the Capitol of the United States and over the White House of this country" and that "radical Muslims" wanted to control the world and put "In Muhammad We Trust" on American currency.

 

[Liberty Star]

Here is an excerpt from wikipedia on Virgil Goode.

Virgil was probably not racially motivated but he had no idea what was to come next as a result of policies he suported. Came across this strange blog today, Congress now wants to question one of the people on this blog for recent WH party crashers fiasco:

http://simplifythepositive.blogspot.com/2008/11/brown-faces-in-high-places.html

It makes it interesting since Iraqis are also considered "brown".

 

[AutoDas]

Yes. But those zoning laws cannot discriminate against a particular religion. If you have a zoning law that bans minarets then steeples would also have to be banned. Someone else in this thread mentioned chickens. One zoning law that barred animal sacrifice was struck down by the supreme court because it was deemed aimed at Santaria.

Are they really discriminating against a particular religion or just the architecture and clash of culture? They can build mosques and practice their religion.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Danish...s_Want_Referendum_On_Minaret_Ban/1891427.html

You know, these countries wouldn't have this "problem" if they didn't feel compelled to accept so many refugees from the Iraq War.

 

[devil21]

You don't need to know every person in the country. I said name three who said what you attributed to them. Fuck it name one.

Shall I start with the media? Or should I just start linking to Republican-oriented forums? You're still being disingenuous and AmericaFYeah already explained it well.

If mainstream Republicans hated Muslims they would find their rights under assault in this country (as they are in Switzerland) and George Bush wouldn't be saying "Islam is a religion of peace". The fact is - America is a very tolerant place.

Last I checked, collective Republicans don't set the agenda and pass laws. The top does and the agenda trickles down to the sheep, who then take the top's opinion and make it their own.
What is this circular argument you're trying to form? The Patriot Act was an obvious example of a curtailing of rights of Muslims in this country. But as expected, it's now affecting non-Muslims too.

Perhaps you should read your own post. You said exactly what I said you did. Regardless show me a neocon who is yelling that all Muslims want to take over the world and implement sharia law in the US.

No, I did not. Maybe it's the known problem with misinterpreting forum posts but I think I was clear. I don't think I can type in much clearer or proper english than I already do. So just ask for clarification next time. Now you know what I meant so revisit what you posted in error.

The fact is Switzerland just passed an incredibly stupid and intolerant law. I like to be thankful that in the US we don't judge entire groups of people based on the actions of a few. The US suffered terrorist attacks, a number of them, but we didn't act like idiots. Switzerland has never had an issue but they responded this way. One of many reasons I am proud to be an American.

We didn't act like idiots? Are you fucking kidding me? We turned into a pre-emptive strike warmongering country that makes torture an official policy, all while passing onerous and unconstitutional laws that restrict the freedoms of everyone in the country, all without even reading the bills. And all without ever addressing what led to the terrorist attack in the first place, which is US interventionism. What could be WORSE for a "free country"? Outright martial law and street executions? I agree that the minaret ban is stupid. I stated that earlier in the thread. Banning the speakers is fine as they are a invasive public nuisance. Did you forget what you were arguing about?

 

[Dieseler]

Are they really discriminating against a particular religion or just the architecture and clash of culture? They can build mosques and practice their religion.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Danish...s_Want_Referendum_On_Minaret_Ban/1891427.html

You know, these countries wouldn't have this "problem" if they didn't feel compelled to accept so many refugees from the Iraq War.

That's really the gist of the thing.
Culturally, I believe the Swiss are resisting change to the look of their countryside and feel they have already given in enough by allowing four of these minarets to pop up along the skyline.
Also,
The earliest mosques were built without minarets, the adhan (call to prayer) was performed elsewhere... Straight out of Wikipedia there..
Minarets are simply architectural in nature and are not necessary to Muslim worship.

Lol, Switzerland is not receiving Arabs, they're Muslim population is mostly from the Balkans, which means they are European already.

They shouldn't have a big problem with this then right?

 

[AutoDas]

Lol, Switzerland is not receiving Arabs, they're Muslim population is mostly from the Balkans, which means they are European already.

Did you click the link? It's not just Switzerland that wants to ban these minarets.

 

[TGGRV]

Some people around here need some sensitivity training. It's simple. You move to Switzerland, you adopt every aspect of the Swiss culture. You don't like it, you butt home. And I don't care about Muslims boycotting anything.

Abraham, are Muslims standing for allowing Christians to enter Kaaba? I will give a flying fuck about Muslims in Europe when I will be able to enter Kaaba, ok? Or the building of a cool cathedral near it? And don't give me the bullshit about how good Christians have it in Muslims lands. Go do your taqqiya somewhere else.

Fozz, 70% of the British Muslims want Sharia. Turkey doesn't only because of the Turkish army. And this movement has no future considering it supports a "religion" that touts capital punishment for apostasy, for example.

By the way, if you don't know about an issue, shut up. I know why the Swiss passed this law and it's not due to bigotry. Actually only a bigot would be against this law while touting a religion based on bigotry. Tolerating the intolerant is moronic.

Liberty Star, the Swiss aren't in the EU.

 

[jmdrake]

Are they really discriminating against a particular religion or just the architecture and clash of culture? They can build mosques and practice their religion.

Do you know what the term "discriminating" means? You don't have to completely ban a religion to discriminate against it. Let's say for arguments sake that Ron Paul Forums were barred by the government from using banner advertising but was still allowed to operate. If only RPF was barred by such a law that would be discrimination. The Swiss haven't banned Islam but the is a clear easy case of discrimination. If this was simply about "architecture" than all such architecture. Look at the following and try to tell me with a straight face that banning the minaret but not banning the steeple somehow isn't discrimination.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Danish...s_Want_Referendum_On_Minaret_Ban/1891427.html

You know, these countries wouldn't have this "problem" if they didn't feel compelled to accept so many refugees from the Iraq War.

Yeah life sucks. We're not happy for having to take so many economic refugees thanks to NAFTA either. But passing a law banning private signs in Spanish would also be discrimination and also be wrong. If these foreign countries are tired of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars they should lobby to have the Nobel committee strip Obama of his peace prize.