STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

[Minarchy4Sale]

What do you mean? My theory may be unyielding, I certainly don't live that way though.

See now, we are making progress! I used to be where you are. I find that the fight for liberty is a battle of inches, and you CAN live your theory, if you find a theory that actually works in the real world! It is necessary to advocate positions that improve our condition and are winnable.

Remember, it took the collectivists a century to get us to this point. We simply cant undo it overnight.

 

[Deborah K]

If they're killing Israeli soldiers they have the moral high ground, easily over cops and teachers here. I don't think that happens in Gaza often though, it's pretty much the children getting killed. Anyways the first step to de-program him would be to get him the hell out of that violent concentration camp so he can see what it is like to live in a more rational and free society. Teachers and cops don't have that excuse though, despite our oppressive government they still have 100% freedom to switch jobs. Really though, playing the ignorant card for an EDUCATOR is just really sad to me, their job is supposed reduce ignorance and they can't even do it for their own mind, let alone the minds of others. I think many teachers AND cops just take the job because it is easy.

Personally if someone said my entire profession was full of scumbags and they gave me a couple reasons to back it up, I would listen to them and look into it. After looking into it I would probably get the hell out.

Ignorance and indoctrination are not the same thing. And your argument doesn't apply to the open minded teacher who went to the CFL event. There was a chance there, to get another teacher on board with us. If you want to see a corrupt system change i.e. our educational system, it will take infiltrating it. Can't do that without teachers who think like we do.

 

[PrairieQueen]

Well that's not me, that's also why I use my real name here. Sometimes I have to rope the passion back in, but I do try to be civilized at all times.

I wasn't directing this at you, just a general observation. :o

And this is not just isolated to this forum either, it's everywhere.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I have lurked here for a long time and almost everyday I consider deleting my account because of threads like this.

So, I know it won't matter to some, but I would like to say WELCOME to any teachers or cops or anyone who is here to learn, like myself. I hope I won't delete my account tomorrow

That's your decision and ultimately your loss. Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. However, people are entitled to their opinion. As I've stated earlier I don't generalize teachers and cops into one group. Some don't know better. Some are oblivious. Some abuse their power, and some are really dedicated to their job. Regardless, it's easy to understand why one would have it out for some of these teachers and officers.

I can respect arguments from both sides, but I will state flat out I would abolish the public school system immediately. The notion, "this is how it is, this is how it will remain, so deal with it" doesn't sit well with me. Furthermore, I take issue with teachers and others using that argument to support a failed system. Public education doesn't work and it's ridiculously expensive.

Edit: I personally welcome all teachers or officers, but don't use your job as an excuse to defend the failed system. You are not a special exception. There is no "I support freedom except...."

 

[LibertyEagle]

Money, for one. When you use money, you use a service that has been completely monopolized by the govt.

Ok, but it's really the Federal Reserve that monopolizes money, right? And they're not a government organization.

That's wrong, but the only alternative as it stands is to live through bartering.

Until we change it, yes.

My stance is that if I want to teach, I should compete within the current system, rather than limit my own job options to a great extent. Why should I handicap myself, especially when it won't save any tax money because they'd simply hire somebody else anyway? It helps no one, not me, not the students, not the taxpayers to do so.

I guess we just differ here. The only way I could bring myself to work for the gummit, is if 1. I thought my actions would serve to reduce said gummit (i.e. dismantle the agency for which I worked), or 2. That through my actions, I would be able to do an end run around what the gummit was attempting to do. For example, figure out a way to avoid using the many government indoctrination programs and instead teach kids about the Constitution, the principles of liberty, etc. Otherwise, to me, it would just be furthering exactly what the government was attempting to impose and I would want no part of it.

This is probably a really severe example, but you know those old men being tried right now for their part in the Khmer Rouge massacre? One of their excuses for murdering so many people, was that if they did not, they themselves would have been murdered. It's only my opinion, but to me, that's not a valid excuse AT ALL.

 

[LibertyEagle]

I have yet to find an anarch that doesnt live completely in unyielding theory. When I do, Ill be sure to make the distinction

Right off the top of my head, go look up some of tremendoustie's posts.

There are some anarcho-capitalists here, that you probably had no idea that were. Because during the campaign, they were working their asses off for Ron Paul and donating money hand over fist, just like every other person. I just don't think we can group people together like that. You know, I hate it when a couple people here do that in their attacks on Christians, traditional conservatives, etc., so I'd just be a hypocrite if I didn't stand up and say something when the same was lobbed in the other direction.

Note: And I'm not speaking about those few whose sole purpose in life seems to be to cause division in the movement, or to destroy it altogether.

 

[Minarchy4Sale]

Go look up some of tremendoustie's posts.

Ill do that. Is he pragmatic anarch or an unyielding one who actually lives his talk?

 

[PrairieQueen]

That's your decision and ultimately your loss. Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. However, people are entitled to their opinion. As I've stated earlier I don't generalize teachers and cops into one group. Some don't know better. Some are oblivious. Some abuse their power, and some are really dedicated to their job. Regardless, it's easy to understand why one would have it out for some of these teachers and officers.

I can respect arguments from both sides, but I will state flat out I would abolish the public school system immediately. The notion, "this is how it is, this is how it will remain, so deal with it" doesn't sit well with me. Furthermore, I take issue with teachers and others using that argument to support a failed system. Public education doesn't work and it's ridiculously expensive.

Edit: I personally welcome all teachers or officers, but don't use your job as an excuse to defend the failed system. You are not a special exception. There is no "I support freedom except...."

I never said they weren't entitled to their opinion. I just think someone that can remain respectful in a debate will have more chance of persuading someone than someone who resorts to name calling and cheap shots

 

[Kraig]

See now, we are making progress! I used to be where you are. I find that the fight for liberty is a battle of inches, and you CAN live your theory, if you find a theory that actually works in the real world! It is necessary to advocate positions that improve our condition and are winnable.

Remember, it took the collectivists a century to get us to this point. We simply cant undo it overnight.

I just don't think I can look for theories in that way, I want what is best, if I can have it or not, I am still going to acknowledge and admire what I believe to be is best. I know we can't undo this shit overnight, I really have no hope of living in what I would consider an ideal society. I DO have hope of living in a much better society than what I have today, and that is why I am here. I don't agree with anyone here 100%, but nearly everyone here shares enough common interest to work towards that better society, if not my ideal one. When we all accomplish that better society, I can then have my own kids in peace, and I will be able teach them what took me 27 years of wading through bullshit to find out, and I'm sure that head start will give them a chance to accomplish much more than I would be able to. Sure, this better society is still quite the lofty goal, and sometimes it seems impossible, but that is my approach to all of this and if we can pull it off I'm sure it will be more than enough to satisfy my anarchist idealism.

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

Well, isn't this a pleasant thread

I suppose such rancor is hard to avoid with a title that commands people to do something and includes the word demon

sheesh...

Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. ...

This was completely uncalled for and detrimental to the cause of liberty

 

[Kraig]

Ignorance and indoctrination are not the same thing. And your argument doesn't apply to the open minded teacher who went to the CFL event. There was a chance there, to get another teacher on board with us. If you want to see a corrupt system change i.e. our educational system, it will take infiltrating it. Can't do that without teachers who think like we do.

See I don't believe it can be changed, and certainly not by infiltrating it. It needs to be removed, dissolved, destroyed, not changed. If you want to try and change it, good luck, just don't ask me to help with what I think is impossible. This is a back issue though, I think we agree on the big ones.

 

[homah]

That's your decision and ultimately your loss. Don't show up if you're so tormented to be here. However, people are entitled to their opinion.

Of course people are entitled to their opinions. That being said, it's understandable that one might be turned off when they see that another poster's first response to an OP is "fuck off." Though, this being the internet, I'm surprised PrairieQueen isn't used to it by now.

PrairieQueen, this thread is representative of most internet forums, sadly.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Well, isn't this a pleasant thread

I suppose such rancor is hard to avoid with a title that commands people to do something and includes the word demon

sheesh...



This was completely uncalled for and detrimental to the cause of liberty

It is most certainly not uncalled for. If she is so tormented to be on the forums and doesn't enjoy being here no one is forcing her to. Do you mind telling me why that is uncalled for or detrimental to the cause of liberty, because I don't see your post as anything other than an attempt to stifle my free thought.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Hey-eeee

I don't need a western Civ lesson or a stupid metaphor.

Radical, dude!

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Of course people are entitled to their opinions. That being said, it's understandable that one might be turned off when they see that another poster's first response to an OP is "fuck off." Though, this being the internet, I'm surprised PrairieQueen isn't used to it by now.

PrairieQueen, this thread is representative of most internet forums, sadly.

Well the original poster has a lot of nerve to try and tell ME how to think, why I should think it, and then use a movement I've worked very hard in as a reason WHY I or somebody else shouldn't be wary of teachers propping up a failed socialist school system.

He didn't simply ask people to tone it down, he flat out started a spam thread on their opinions and went on to patronize them. That deserved a "Oh shutup...give me a break."

 

[Minarchy4Sale]

There are some anarcho-capitalists here, that you probably had no idea that were. Because during the campaign, they were working their asses off for Ron Paul and donating money hand over fist, just like every other person.

I think by definition that someone who engages in politics doesnt really fit the an-cap description, no? I mean, yeah, they may advocate what I consider to be a utiopian vision in the long run, but they arent so myopic as to ignore acting to make real change in the real world...

I just don't think we can group people together like that. You know, I hate it when a couple people here do that in their attacks on Christians, traditional conservatives, etc., so I'd just be a hypocrite if I didn't stand up and say something when the same was lobbed in the other direction.

I see your point. I am getting to the point here though that I was at when *I* was in theory a "libertarian/an-cap", listening to people talking about no government, but afraid to DO anything, because their ideas were so radical and unattainable that to walk that walk for even a day would certainly mean giving up anything good you had in your life. It's a dead end utopian vision akin to communism because it denies reality and assumes some perfect world that will never exist... and the only way to challenge the thinking is to ask why they just talk.....

I will take the point about not lumping them all together though. Im sure some of them have a pragmatic bone or two in their bodies

 

[NYgs23]

Ok, but it's really the Federal Reserve that monopolizes money, right? And they're not a government organization.

I'd say the Fed is as much quasi-govt as it is quasi-private. It operates under the force of the State.

I guess we just differ here. The only way I could bring myself to work for the gummit, is if 1. I thought my actions would serve to reduce said gummit (i.e. dismantle the agency for which I worked), or 2. That through my actions, I would be able to do an end run around what the gummit was attempting to do. For example, figure out a way to avoid using the many government indoctrination programs and instead teach kids about the Constitution, the principles of liberty, etc. Otherwise, to me, it would just be furthering exactly what the government was attempting to impose and I would want no part of it.

Would you be willing to maintain govt roads? If you were, say, a glazier, would you accept contracts to maintain windows in govt buildings? What about firefighting? More importantly, are those glaziers and firefighters behaving immorally, and are they undermining freedom? Admittedly, being a teacher is a bit difference because you can have influence over kids, but there is no reason, no law that suggests it has to be a negative influence.

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

It is most certainly not uncalled for. If she is so tormented to be on the forums and doesn't enjoy being here no one is forcing her to. Do you mind telling me why that is uncalled for or detrimental to the cause of liberty, because I don't see your post as anything other than an attempt to stifle my free thought.

I didn't quote anything but you suggesting she leave. It is detrimental to run people off, and attacking a respectful new poster seems idiotic to me.

And if you think my remarking on that one sentence is an attempt to stifle your free thought... I hardly know what to say

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I didn't quote anything but you suggesting she leave. It is detrimental to run people off, and attacking a respectful new poster seems idiotic to me.

And if you think my remarking on that one sentence is an attempt to stifle your free thought... I hardly know what to say

I don't see how I was running her off. She simply stated she debated her account here, and if she doesn't like being here then no one is forcing her to be and it was her decision but there are going to be people that disagree and fight with each other.

That's not disrespectful, I certainly didn't attack her, and you're completely out of line for trying to start issues with me. Stop being so overly sensitive and butt-hurt ya pansy.

Edit: Because not even she took it the wrong way like you did if you read her response.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Well the original poster has a lot of nerve to try and tell ME how to think, why I should think it, and then use a movement I've worked very hard in as a reason WHY I or somebody else shouldn't be wary of teachers propping up a failed socialist school system.

He didn't simply ask people to tone it down, he flat out started a spam thread on their opinions and went on to patronize them. That deserved a "Oh shutup...give me a break."

And, yet, Western Civilization was started because of a social act of someone who was the most worthy choosing to instead lower themselves to that of a servant.