Stewart Rhodes, founder of Oathkeepers, was right about federal gov't attacking Bundy Ranch

[kcchiefs6465]

 

[Deborah K]

Stewart, I should cordially introduce you to the RPF membership. Bryan, our fearless administrator/owner of the site is a huge fan of the Oathkeepers and sees the OK as one of the best hopes for our cause. There are many members of your group who are also members of this forum. We are a feisty bunch here, but truly do respect your work.

I met Stewart in '12 when he graciously agreed to speak at P.A.U.L Festival. Here is his speech.

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

What is your opinion on the recent case in Georgia where a baby was disfigured in the execution of an early morning drug raid?

Would you consider that to be outside of Constitutional legitimacy? Or for that matter, the same to the arresting of those for vices which have no victims?

Is there a vetting process to become an Oathkeeper? Must one prove their profession as a peace officer rather than a police officer?

They are quite frankly shooting people down (or otherwise blatantly murdering them) daily. I find myself frustrated in the lack of the peace officer's objection. We are told tales of bad apples versus good apples but forgive me if I'm frank: I have not heard a one denounce that permanent injury and probable blinding of a baby. I just recently visited the Habersham Sheriff's website. They have a banner that they are for the children. Not one mention of this case. Do you consider the problem, as I do, to be systemic? Why or why not?

Yes, it is systematic. You can blame the drug war for the militarization of the police, and for the destruction of the Fourth Amendment. The original justification for SWAT teams was for hostage situations, where it was necessary to enter a home to try to prevent a hostage being killed. I see no legitimacy whatsoever for SWAT being used to serve warrants. Which is precisely why we protested the SWAT raid that killed Marine Veteran Jose Guerena, in Tuscon a couple years ago.

Such raids do not respect the principle of a man's home being his castle, they do not respect the Fourth Amendment (you sure are not "secure" in your home or person when you can be subjected to a Delta Force style raid at any moment, with armed men in body armor kicking in your door, shooting your dogs, and sticking M4s in your family's faces. That is life in a police state. Nor does it respect the Second Amendment. If you dare try to protect your family against these unknown gunmen, like Guerenna did, you will be gunned down on site. If you don't, and it turns out to have been the cartel, then you and your family will be murdered, and possibly raped and tortured first. So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

That's why we protested the Tucson Guerena SWAT raid and we oppose all such raids on principle. Knock on the door like decent human beings, and treat the people inside like decent human beings, who are presumed innocent until proven guilty. If they are a serious security risk, then pull them over on the way home from the store or from work and do the search of their home while they sit on the side of the road. That is what they COULD have done with Guerena. He worked grave shift at a mine. He got off work at 7am. They could easily have stopped him on the way home, or even just popped into the mine right before his shift ended, and have the manager call him up to the manager's office, and then tell him to sit down and chill while they searched his house.

Frankly, if he had REALLY been a cartel member, and a real bad guy, he could have easily set his home up to kill that whole SWAT team. At the time, we had a retired Special Forces Major on our Board of Directors, the late Maj. Rex H. McTyeire (may he rest in peace) and in a speech right after the protest, Rex stated that a REAL bad guy would have set up an M60 machine-gun on a tripod in the garage, at pelvis level, all dialed in with a T&E Mechanism (Transversing and Elevating mechanism) so that when the wanna be Delta SWAT team got all stacked up in the front entry, and in front of the tin garage door, he could have just raked a long burst THROUGH THE GARAGE WALL and garage door and wiped them all out before they even knew what hit them. That is what a real bad guy would do. And he pointed out that this is precisely why the real Delta guys don't go in through the fatal funnels and predictable entry points of doorways. They go in through a wall. He was in SF from Vietnam through the 90s and he saw the first SWAT teams come in to Ft. Bragg to get training from Delta, and he knew it was not going to end well.

His point was that these SWAT teams think they are so high speed, like Delta, but most of them really aren't "all that" and they would get their asses handed to them by any real bad guy with decent infantry training who actually prepared his ground in advance, with just a machine gun, let alone Claymore mines. So, riding right up to the drive way, rock music blasting (a longer version of the video shows them doing that) to get all pumped up, jumping out and then stacking in front of a thin door, and thin walls WITH NO COVER whatsoever, all in a nice little line up, balls to ass, waiting to toothpaste tube through the front door, only really works on people who are NOT real bad guys. Against real hardened cartel guys? It's a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak

Watch that video and image them doing that to a real bad guy who set an ambush as the good Major said could be done.

So, such "tactics" really only work against soft targets, like average Joes and Janes in their underwear, who have not hardened their home and have not laid a trap.

Stewart

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

Stewart, would you mind posting some of what you wrote in the email to me? I know there are questions in this thread that I had trouble answering accurately. Maybe you could clear that up if you have the time?

Sure. Here is what I emailed to Deborah:

We chose to leave [on Tuesday, April 29], once it became clear the gaggle of wanna-be warlords would not even cooperate with us so we could give them timely reports on what we saw while out on patrol (and we ran steady patrols on the highways starting Friday night, all the way to the next Tuesday), and after one of our FLIR handheld infrared units was stolen out of our truck. And our local volunteers from Vegas who were going to take over the scout patrols for us also became so offended by the libelous video of the gaggle voting that we were deserters and traitors that the Vegas Oath Keepers no longer wanted to run patrols on the highways. That video was released on Monday, but our Vegas guys didn't see it till Tuesday, and that is when they told us they didn't want to run patrols for such people.

Fact was, we had Oath Keepers still on the ground before, during, and after that whole debacle. We officially pulled out because the security team would not cooperate with us, so we didn't see the point in sticking around. But they never 'forced" us to do anything. They just ran their mouths. The only time they used force was in assaulting an old combat vet Marine [and another senior citizen Oath Keeper in his 60s] on the night of the drone strike tip.

I think it is accurate to say that sides were taken, and we were falsely accused of running away, but we countered that we had in fact already agreed that Oath Keepers would deploy out as scouts, and that is what we did all weekend and up to Tuesday. You can link to our video rebuttal for that.

[we had already coordinated with Jerry DeLemus, camp commander, on Oath Keepers going out as scouts on the highways, earlier that day, long before the drone tip came in. And that is precisely what we did that night, and every night from then on, till Tuesday. And he knew we were out on patrol because both I, and my VP David Helms, talked to him on the phone at around 1am Saturday morning, on April 26 (same night/early morning after drone strike tip) while we were on patrol, and he also knew our Marine combat veteran Steve Homan was out on patrol because Steve drove into the camp late Sunday night?Monday morning to talk to Jerry (and that is when the hand-held FLIR infrared scope was stolen out of the truck Steve was driving). And yet, later that same morning, Monday April 28th, he libeled us when he joined in that "vote" to falsely accuse us of deserting our posts].

On my being vindicated: Yes, I think I now am. This confirms that the Obama admin really was considering a military strike. And in answer to those saying "but the document forbid armed drones being used" I think they misunderstand what the DOD Directive does. It is from the Secretary of Defense, not the President, and it grants discretionary authority to low level commanders to use force to assist nearly any public official, for nearly anything, except that it states that domestic use of unarmed drones must be approved by the Secretary of Defense (making it clear they can use them, but have to get his signature) and it states that armed drones are not authorized by that document. But that doesn't mean the President cannot OK the use of armed drones, nor does it mean the Secretary of Defense cannot authorize their use independent of this document. It just says that they are not authorized by this Directive, period. You can bet that Obama still reserves his "right" and power to use armed drones anywhere on the planet, including here at home.

So, my hunch is that they were considering an array of possible options in a military strike, and that one among several options was an armed drone strike (useful for them because it removes the risk of harm to pilots, aircraft, and soldiers from the .50 caliber rifles that were present among the Bundy volunteers). Just a guess, but probably also among those options, ranking downward in perceived heavy-handedness, was probably a strike by C-130 gunship, or by Apache helicopters, or by Little Bird helicopters with mini-guns (like were used in Somalia during the "Blackhawk Down" incident), and then down to snipers firing out of helicopters, with a blocking force inserted on the ground between the volunteer camp and the Bundy ranch to keep the volunteers from being able to come to their aid while a snatch team assaulted the actual Bundy residence (either inserted by ground vehicle or by helicopter) .

That last option could have been done easily since the volunteer camp was nearly a mile away from the Bundy home, and all they really would have had to do was put a couple of trucks across the road just above the volunteer camp so the volunteers would have had to run across the desert to assist the family, and by the time they got there, it would have been over (and that doesn't even require a blocking force to stop them. Just let them try to run a mile, in the dark, all loaded down with rifles and gear, across the desert. That would have taken at least ten minutes for the very fittest among them, in a full out run, with no consideration to being tactical).

I think they had all those options on the table, and for each, a legal analysis as well as a tactical and strategic analysis. And for the drone option, I think they did indeed get an opinion or memo from the DOJ, just like the DOJ issued memos on torture or the use of the laws of war against Americans, by John Yoo and Jay Bybee during the Bush years. And those memos were then put into practice by the DOD.

In this case, they got the go ahead to do it, legally, and were all set to do it, but then someone high up decided against it, or against any overwhelming use of military force., And they likely did not have the confidence to try to do it in a more conventional "law enforcement" SWAT type raid because of the presence of well armed volunteers at the actual ranch. They could have done it, but it would have been messy, and such a move would itself likely sparked a reaction nearly as bad as a more overt military strike, given the known presence of Bundy children and women.

Again, just my educated guesses. I think they decided to wait it out till things die down, and then if they are going to arrest Cliven Bundy for anything, they can just catch him on the way to or from church, or on the way to or from the grocery or local feed store, or whatever.

And we knew from the beginning that is what sane people would do, but we cannot rely on this government to be sane. Look at Waco. And that is precisely why we were there - to be a buffer between the Bundy family and the Feds to prevent another Waco.

I will be doing an analysis of the defense of the Bundy ranch, and it will go into more detail.

Thanks again, and I am glad things turned out OK for you after Paul Fest.

Stewart

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

Thanks for coming, Stewart.

No sweat. Sorry it's so late. Likely past most folks' bedtime.

Stewart

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

Thanks for coming, Stewart.

No sweat. Sorry it's so late. Likely past most folks' bedtime.

Stewart

 

[Deborah K]

I really do appreciate this, Stewart. Thanks again. You're a stand-up guy.

deb

 

[Origanalist]

Thanks for showing up Stewart. I really do wish it was earlier, as I'm about to call it a night. Been way too busy lately. I hope this thread goes on for a while, and I really hope you continue to check in here.

 

[fr33]

Can we expect more proactive exercises from Oath Keepers in the future at similar events?

Like for example the the potential BLM land-grab that might happen in Texas? http://www.rfdtv.com/story/25206377/oklahoma-texas-border-dispute-has-ranchers-worried

 

[Anti Federalist]

Damn, missed it.

Glad you stopped by, you helped out a family member on personal level a couple years back, and I have not forgotten and I continue to support OK financially.

Keep up the good work.

 

[William Tell]

Stewart, I am submitting this question from a friend:

"Hi Stewart, I would like to know how to select a lawyer for defending against false resisting arrest charges. A trustworthy lawyer who won't sell his client down the river."

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

One of the best ways to start to clearly understand what happened on the night of Friday, April 25, when we got the phone tip of a possible drone strike, is to listen to this interview I did with John Jacob of Radio Free Redoubt:

http://radiofreeredoubt.podbean.com/e/stewart-rhodes-interview-drone-strike-intelligence/

I gave that interview at shortly after 8pm that night, on the 25th. I think the whole thing is worth listening to, but on the topic of what we thought was the best course of action, I said this:

“the point of putting this out is to prevent it from happening,. And of course we’re taking a risk of credibility by doing this, but given the threat to life, we felt, frankly, honor bound to let people know – to let the folks out there know, so they could make a choice of whether to stay on that ranch or not. Our advice to them is to get off the “X”, even the guys pulling guard, they can still pull guard, but they don’t have to be sitting in a big clump, in the middle of a clearing. They can go out to the perimeter, they can go on patrol, etc. That’s what I think they should do.”

And as I said above, we had already arranged to have Oath Keepers deploy out as mobile scouts on the highways around the ranch, and both north and south on interstate 15. We arranged that earlier that day, long before the drone strike tip came in. And one of the reasons we had arranged that is that we saw that those running the camp were not taking security seriously, and were not putting into place effective, basic measures that any competent infantry commander would do. We had strongly recommended that they dig in, and we had a veteran who had been a Marine infantry platoon SGT who offered to help them dig in correctly, with overhead cover. That was rejected.

That same Marine vet and I had gone out and bought all the materials to make mylar lined, camouflaged individual shelters that would conceal the men from infrared observation from the air. As an aside, we set guys to building those covers, but when I returned from going back to Montana to get more volunteers and more supplies, I found that only half of the FLIR shelters had been built. I found that out after the initial call on the drone strike tip, and I imediately tasked four Oath Keepers from Montana with the job of finishing those infrared blocking shelters, and when I left the camp to go pick up Sheriff Denny Peyman at the airport, I told Ben Stoble, one of the guys from Montana who was acting as Jerry's executive officer "anyone who is going to stay here [in the main camp area] needs to be dug in deep, in a spider hole, with a mylar cover over them."

To my knowledge, that advice was not followed. They did not dig in as a unit. Some individuals may have dug holes, but not like a serious, coordinated defensive position, that was properly moved off where they had been, and placed in a way so they were dispersed enough, but still mutually supporting.

A few days before, that same Marine veteran Platoon SGT also tried to get them to move the volunteer camp closer to the actual Bundy ranch, so they could actually fulfill their role of being a buffer between the Bundy family and any attackers. But that was also ignored, and so, as I said above to Deborah, the volunteer camp remained about a mile away from the actual Bundy residence, where they could have been easily blocked and contained and therefore ineffective at actually protecting the family.

And we had concerns about how the Bundy family was no longer really running things on their own ranch, and were letting out of state people pretty much just do as they saw fit, while Oath Keepers was being cut out of the leadership meetings, despite having three Board members present. That happened while I was gone.

So, days before, we had already decided that it was best for us to separate out as a separate unit, and perform the needed function of running patrols. And I spoke directly with Jerry DeLemus about that on the afternoon of the 25th, and he agreed to us doing that.

Stewart

 

[JK/SEA]

new day bump.

i live in the PNW...missed Stewart last night. Thanks for appearing on RPF Stewart. Don't be a stranger.

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

new day bump.

i live in the PNW...missed Stewart last night. Thanks for appearing on RPF Stewart. Don't be a stranger.

I'll still take questions. Have to travel into town today to take my sister to a doctor's appointment this afternoon, but I can chat a bit before that, and then tonight when I get back home.

Stewart

 

[tod evans]

Hi Stewart.

I have a question regarding Oathkeepers in general...

Given the disparity between a layman's reading of our constitution and the Supreme Courts, can you say with any certainty that your organization is going to back one faction or the other?

 

[MelissaCato]

Thank you for all you do and God Bless all OathKeepers.

 

[Stewart Rhodes]

Can we expect more proactive exercises from Oath Keepers in the future at similar events?

Like for example the the potential BLM land-grab that might happen in Texas? http://www.rfdtv.com/story/25206377/oklahoma-texas-border-dispute-has-ranchers-worried

Our Texas chapter is scheduled to attend an open carry rally in that area, and their chapter president recently attended a symposium on that issue. So, I think the answer there is yes, but I will leave that particular case up to the Texas chapter. As I said above, in general we support nullification of unconstitutional actions by the Feds, and especially where they violate the Bill of Rights, and due process in general. Both were happening at Bundy Ranch, and if that is any indication, we will see more of such heavy-handedness.

However, I think the best counter is not for Oath Keepers or other national groups to try to be the nation's "constitutional fire department" for the whole country, running around to each "fire" that pops up, but instead to organize and train volunteer "constitutional fire" departments in each community. By that I mean we need to build neighborhood watches, posses (behind a constitutional Sheriff) and town and county militia (a REAL militia made up of all able-bodied people in that town or county, not just a few. A good place to start would be to get the local VFW members off the bar-stool and organized, but in the long run if you can get it sanctioned by the town or county government, that would put you in the strongest position, as with a posse. But even if the local politicians won't officially sanction it, you still MUST organize as a community for defense. It is necessary). Again, look at Michoacan. It takes a whole community to do it right. In Michoacan, they called it "Community Police" but was obviously really the community militia.

And that is the real point of our CPT program. It is not for Oath Keepers to become THE emergency response and security element for each community. The real job is for Oath Keepers to form training cadre who then go out and train and organize the rest of the community. That is why we use the Special Forces A Team as a model for our CPTs, because, while SF teams can be operational units, their real power comes from their ability to act as trainers and "community organizers." That is where they are a very serious force multiplier. We are doing the same, in communities all over the nation.

And whether you do it through our CPT program, or through something else entirely you create, who cares, so long as you get it done. Organize your own local community.

Down at Bunkerville, during the Bundy standoff, we saw that communications (or the lack thereof) was one of the most glaring deficiencies. And one of the first things I did when we got involved was buy 20 FRS/MURS short range hand-held radios and give them out, and then over 20 hand-held Boefeng dual band, hand-held HAM radios, because almost nobody had any radios of any kind among the volunteers. Plenty of guns and ammo, but no commo.

And then Justin Giles, one of our Alaska leaders, flew in with a Two Meter radio and antenna (the antenna was a folding unit all neatly tucked away in a big duffle bag he checked in as luggage). Until he arrived and set that tall Two meter antenna and radio up, the volunteer camp could not even talk to the security team at the Bundy house directly over the radio because there was a hill in between them. They had to have a guy sit on the hill top and relay messages. Justin's radio and antenna took care of that, and that unit became THE comms unit for the entire camp. And it stayed there even after Justin returned to Alaska, with the promise from camp leadership that he would get it back, and even when the rest of us in Oath Keepers leadership left, we let them keep his radio and antenna there, because without it, THEY HAD NO COMMS able to talk over that hill. And he never did get his radio and antenna back.

And after Justin set up that radio and antenna, they still had no General class HAM with the gear to talk to the rest of the world, and though we could find General Class HAMs in the area, we could find NONE with the balls to actually go out there and provide that ability to talk to the world, in case the cell phones were shut off.

I had to bring my own Montana Oath Keepers communications specialist, Paul Stramer, down from NW Montana to fulfill that incredibly urgent need. He drove down with a mobile commo truck with the radios, antenna, etc to be able to talk to the whole world. He also brought down mobile units we then put in various rental cars for our on the road scout patrols to use. Paul set up his comm base in a hotel room in Mesquit, Nevada, 20 miles North of the Ranch, so that even if the ranch was raided, he could get the word out to the world. And from there, our mobile scout units had a 50 mile radius of mobile radio comms with him and each other using the mobile units that plugged into the car cigaret lighters, and using antennas with magnets you just stick on the roof. So, even if the cell towers were shut down, we could still tell the world what was happening.

It should not have taken an Oath Keeper from Alaska, and then one from Montana, to do all of that. The locals should have had it squared away in advance. And, each and every responding militia ALSO should have had that basic comms capability when they arrived, but none of them did. I call that a big, fat, FAIL.

When we started the CPT program, which calls for 12 man field teams containing two comms specialists, two medical specialists, and two engineers, and the rest being security specialists, we got some smart ass emails telling us we are reinventing the wheel, since the HAM radio network, and the emergency response community already had it handled. But where were they at Bundy ranch? Nowhere. Sure, we located some HAM radio guys, but all the technical ability and high-speed equipment is useless as a fart in a tornado if you don't have the balls to show up (there was a General Class HAM we found right there in Mesquite, but he wouldn't return our calls).

Lesson learned: Develop a communications team in each team, each unit, each neighborhood, each community response and mutual aid group, each posse, etc. You gotta have comms. As we used to say in the Army, if you ain't got comms, you ain't got shit.

And even with Justin and Paul, we still had a shortage of comms ability. Paul needed another HAM operator at the ranch who could then talk to Paul, off-ranch, to get the word out on anything happening there. In all the entire camp, he found only two other guys who were HAM radio operators with the minimum capability, and one of them was another guy we had brought from Montana! So, out of some 70 volunteers, only two radio guys other than Paul. Again, FAIL.

You can read Paul's AAR here:

http://www.paulstramer.net/2014/05/communications-at-bundy-ranch-and.html

And by the way, Oath Keepers helped him buy some of the gear he used down there, and we are helping him buy more he needs for any future events we deploy to. Thanks to our Oath Keepers National Comms leader, Rocky, I now have a powerful radio and antenna, with power system, packed in a hard case, and Paul and I can just jump on a plane and go anywhere with this mobile unit, and he can talk to the world.

But YOU need to do the same in your own community. Once again, it should NOT take some guy from Montana flying in or driving in to provide comms.

Stewart

 

[Keith and stuff]

I don't hold anything against Stewart or Jerry or any of the other people trying to help. It was a dangerous place where pressure was coming from all sides. There were even likely agent provocateurs and so on. Everyone made it out alive. Lessons were learned by a lot of people.

Great work Stewart!

 

[Deborah K]

And then Justin Giles, one of our Alaska leaders, flew in with a Two Meter radio and antenna (the antenna was a folding unit all neatly tucked away in a big duffle bag he checked in as luggage). Until he arrived and set that tall Two meter antenna and radio up, the volunteer camp could not even talk to the security team at the Bundy house directly over the radio because there was a hill in between them. They had to have a guy sit on the hill top and relay messages. Justin's radio and antenna took care of that, and that unit became THE comms unit for the entire camp. And it stayed there even after Justin returned to Alaska, with the promise from camp leadership that he would get it back, and even when the rest of us in Oath Keepers leadership left, we let them keep his radio and antenna there, because without it, THEY HAD NO COMMS able to talk over that hill. And he never did get his radio and antenna back.

This is just despicable.

And after Justin set up that radio and antenna, they still had no General class HAM with the gear to talk to the rest of the world, and though we could find General Class HAMs in the area, we could find NONE with the balls to actually go out there and provide that ability to talk to the world, in case the cell phones were shut off.

Lesson learned: Develop a communications team in each team, each unit, each neighborhood, each community response and mutual aid group, each posse, etc. You gotta have comms. As we used to say in the Army, if you ain't got comms, you ain't got shit.

My husband and I both have tech licenses. And, we're members of the local CERT team. I plan on showing them what you wrote here, Stewart. And, I think maybe we should get general licenses now, even though we plan on leaving Cali.

 

[Deborah K]

Bump