Something is Really Bothering Me

[Scofield]

just because we don't agree with the government, or support its actions, we can still show respect to the flag, to our nation, our people. our flag stands for more than just the government, it stands for us, and i'll always stand for it.

I don't need to wave a flag or recite the Pledge of Allegiance to show my patriotism. What you are talking about is [blind] nationalism, not patriotism.

We, or at least most, on this forum show more patriotism in our everyday lives than the average American can even comprehend. Don't try to tell us we are unpatriotic or ungrateful for the sacrifices our founders went through.

 

[Elwar]

I tend to just say the parts of the pledge that I agree with:

I pledge allegiance to...the United States of America...one nation, under God, indivisible with LIBERTY and justice for all. (I tend to say the word liberty a lot louder to the point where people look).

My religion looks down on me worshipping a flag (false idol).

 

[powerofreason]

I tend to just say the parts of the pledge that I agree with:

I pledge allegiance to...the United States of America...one nation, under God, indivisible with LIBERTY and justice for all. (I tend to say the word liberty a lot louder to the point where people look).

My religion looks down on me worshipping a flag (false idol).

The indivisible part is really disgusting to me. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, but at least the country isn't divided! Oh joy!

 

[constituent]

just because we don't agree with the government, or support its actions, we can still show respect to the flag, to our nation, our people. our flag stands for more than just the government, it stands for us, and i'll always stand for it.

hey w/ever floats your boat man, as long as you don't count me as "we" or "us."

 

[user]

Sure we do. You just do not deserve any respect.

"We"? So you are among those throwing things at someone who understands the country is in trouble, because they won't participate in a prayer to the government?

 

[tremendoustie]

I am a senior in public high school. Every day in school I stand up for the pledge of allegiance. Lately, I've felt more and more disgusted by it. I stopped saying it since last year, but I do put my hand over my heart and stand up and look at the flag. Reasons I hate the pledge:

1. It was written by a national socialist (nazi) flag salesman.

2. The original salute to the flag was this:

3. I am pledging allegiance to the republic (the government) of America, which I hate heart and soul. I love America but I hate the American government, and all government for that matter.

4. Its brainwashing and its a demand of obedience. I'm not an obedient little slave.

I consider myself to be a deeply principled person. The pledge may not have a lot of meaning to a lot of people, its just something kids in school recite every day without thinking about it. But it really bothers me. Should I take a stand and stay seated for the pledge from now on? Would that be brave or foolish, in your opinion?

If asked why I won't do the pledge I'll say it violates my morals. If pressed further I'll say that I do not support organizations that operate through violence and coercion. How's that?

I think you should do it!

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvS_7GioJgk&feature=channel_page

It makes no sense to pledge allegiance to a flag, or a republic. What if that republic acts immorally? Our pledge of allegiance should be to what is right.

Edit: Ah, I see the vid was already posted ...

 

[Bontemps]

I don't need to wave a flag or recite the Pledge of Allegiance to show my patriotism. What you are talking about is [blind] nationalism, not patriotism.

We, or at least most, on this forum show more patriotism in our everyday lives than the average American can even comprehend. Don't try to tell us we are unpatriotic or ungrateful for the sacrifices our founders went through.

out of context. i did not say once that you need to recite or wave anything to show patriotism, just pride. have a little, don't cast off anybody who has pride in their country as blind nationalism, i'm here for a reason.

 

[Bontemps]

hey w/ever floats your boat man, as long as you don't count me as "we" or "us."

read beyond the text please.

 

[Elwar]

The indivisible part is really disgusting to me. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, but at least the country isn't divided! Oh joy!

Ya, I wish it was invisible instead. That would be cool.

 

[Bontemps]

Ya, I wish it was invisible instead. That would be cool.

totally thought that was what it was for like the first 10 years of my life

 

[Battlecruiser]

I was also bothered by the Pledge in junior year after I did a project on it and realized what I had been mindlessly chanting before. The history of the pledge was troublesome, but one of the phrases that I did not want to say was "under god", which was added around the 1950s. As an atheist, I found it wrong that the pledge was endorsing religion, and I felt it to be a violation of separation of church and state. So I always replaced "under god" with "under no god" during senior year.

 

[emazur]

School attendance is compulsory bud. If there was a free market in education I'd probably be out of school and working the past 4 or 5 years. Could I choose to go to a private school? No. My parents can't afford it. If they didn't have to pay property taxes they probably could. Private schools are still State-approved anyways. Its not like the market for education isn't extremely unfair and restricted. Did I agree to that? No.

I don't have experience with this myself, but have you considered dropping out (at 18 I believe you can do this legally) and getting a GED while working part or full time?

And give this a listen just to give you an idea of what kinds of alternatives are out there:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99056483

Personally I despised college, the teachers, the curriculum, and didn't care for the people. Ayn Rand:

Observe that today’s resurgence of tribalism is not a product of the lower classes—of the poor, the helpless, the ignorant—but of the intellectuals, the college-educated “elitists” (which is a purely tribalistic term). Observe the proliferation of grotesque herds or gangs—hippies, yippies, beatniks, peaceniks, Women’s Libs, Gay Libs, Jesus Freaks, Earth Children—which are not tribes, but shifting aggregates of people desperately seeking tribal “protection.”

The common denominator of all such gangs is the belief in motion (mass demonstrations), not action—in chanting, not arguing—in demanding, not achieving—in feeling, not thinking—in denouncing “outsiders,” not in pursuing values—in focusing only on the “now,” the “today” without a “tomorrow”—in seeking to return to “nature,” to “the earth,” to the mud, to physical labor, i.e., to all the things which a perceptual mentality is able to handle. You don’t see advocates of reason and science clogging a street in the belief that using their bodies to stop traffic, will solve any problem.

And I haven't read this but I like the sound of it:
http://www.amazon.com/Teenage-Liberation-Handbook-School-Education/dp/0962959170

 

[powerofreason]

I'm no fan of Ayn Rand but thats a great Ayn Rand quote. So true.

 

[powerofreason]

Dropping out may have been an option except:

a) Parents would never accept it.

b) I'm in the top 15% of my class. I am an underachiever because I just find the whole education system repulsive, and I feel that dropping out would in a way be throwing away all the work I've gone through to get to this point. If I knew I was going to drop out one day I could have had a lot more fun in high school lol.

c) In America, high school dropout = loser. I know that there's always the GED, but still. The stigma is there and people will automatically assume you're an idiot if they learn you dropped out.

 

[user]

c) In America, high school dropout = loser. I know that there's always the GED, but still. The stigma is there and people will automatically assume you're an idiot if they learn you dropped out.

This probably seems like a big deal right now but it's not much of a problem.

 

[user]

I'm no fan of Ayn Rand but thats a great Ayn Rand quote. So true.

I'm just glad to hear Ayn Rand apparently defending the poor!

 

[newbitech]

This probably seems like a big deal right now but it's not much of a problem.

its not a problem. if you use your experience, confidence, and spend time refining your skills rather than partying and playing video games you will be in charge of people who might otherwise think you an idiot regardless of your background.

I speak from experience here. I quit H.S. early to start working even though I was an IB student with straight A's up until 11th grade. I was recruited by the navy for nuclear A school with a 98 on my asvab. I scored over 1300 on my SAT's and have an IQ of 112. This was in 1995. I went to work instead of going to college. Would I like to have a degree? Sure would. Would I like to have 80K debt instead of the 10k I have now? Nope. Would I trade my experience of the last 10 years for a master degree in my field? Nope.

I have been in and out of jobs over the last 2 years through no fault of my own. I have managed teams of people who had 2, 4, and 6 year degrees. Did their degrees help them more than the training that my experience provided? Nope.

I am working out a contract right now that will hopefully put me in to the 60k bring home category (after tax). I am leaning totally upon my experience and confidence and knowledge I gained through self study.

No my life hasn't been perfect easy or smooth. Was there an easier way to get to where I am today? Possibly. I am going on 32 and my peers are old men (50's-60's) with degrees and experience.

You can get a better education for free by honing your internet research skills. This education translate directly into real world experience that can be used on any resume. No college degree prepares you for what is going on in the real business world.

I digress. The stigma most young people feel about completing H.S. and getting a degree is a travesty. Growing up should be about pursuing your dreams and sadly, a paid education does not deliver. The sooner a young person learns that in order to be successful, he or she must find opportunity by trial and error the sooner they can become happy and productive adults. Learning to deal with failure should come early in life and not be postponed by going after an expensive piece of paper that will ultimately be worthless by the time it would really become useful.

 

[user]

its not a problem. if you use your experience, confidence, and spend time refining your skills rather than partying and playing video games you will be in charge of people who might otherwise think you an idiot regardless of your background.

I speak from experience here. I quit H.S. early to start working even though I was an IB student with straight A's up until 11th grade. I was recruited by the navy for nuclear A school with a 98 on my asvab. I scored over 1300 on my SAT's and have an IQ of 112. This was in 1995. I went to work instead of going to college. Would I like to have a degree? Sure would. Would I like to have 80K debt instead of the 10k I have now? Nope. Would I trade my experience of the last 10 years for a master degree in my field? Nope.

I have been in and out of jobs over the last 2 years through no fault of my own. I have managed teams of people who had 2, 4, and 6 year degrees. Did their degrees help them more than the training that my experience provided? Nope.

I am working out a contract right now that will hopefully put me in to the 60k bring home category (after tax). I am leaning totally upon my experience and confidence and knowledge I gained through self study.

No my life hasn't been perfect easy or smooth. Was there an easier way to get to where I am today? Possibly. I am going on 32 and my peers are old men (50's-60's) with degrees and experience.

You can get a better education for free by honing your internet research skills. This education translate directly into real world experience that can be used on any resume. No college degree prepares you for what is going on in the real business world.

I digress. The stigma most young people feel about completing H.S. and getting a degree is a travesty. Growing up should be about pursuing your dreams and sadly, a paid education does not deliver. The sooner a young person learns that in order to be successful, he or she must find opportunity by trial and error the sooner they can become happy and productive adults. Learning to deal with failure should come early in life and not be postponed by going after an expensive piece of paper that will ultimately be worthless by the time it would really become useful.

I absolutely agree, but I blame the government and its allies for that stigma. Kids that age shouldn't have to take that kind of a risk just to have a better life, so they're really in a difficult position.

The way it is today, even the few kids that are able to figure out what a scam school is while they're still kids also have to be willing to take that huge risk to avoid school. That's just not right at all.

 

[CoreyBowen999]

Thanks for bringing this up man and I can tell you that as a sophomore in high school I do not stand for the pledge nor recite it. Luckily I have only been confronted about it once and it did not escalate.

 

[Roxi]

just rewrite it in your own words like "I pledge to fight for freedom, in the United states of america, unto the republic for which it stood when the founders wrote the constitution....."

then don't put your hand on your heart, try to be louder than everyone else, but not so loud they say your "disrupting the class"

prepare to be called names