Something is Really Bothering Me

[powerofreason]

Civil Disobedience!

Is it technically civil disobedience? I don't think I'm breaking any laws. Just a Hitlerian school rule.

 

[sparebulb]

For three years of middle school, we had to recite the pledge every morning. It didn't seem quite right to me so I never did it. I stood respectfully, but never recited the words. No one noticed or cared. That is one less idol that I have worshiped in my life. The only people that should be forced to recite the pledge every morning are the people in Washington.

 

[Bossobass]

Is it technically civil disobedience? I don't think I'm breaking any laws. Just a Hitlerian school rule.

It's not civil disobedience. It's Constitutionally authorized freedom of choice.

West Virginia State Board of Education v Barnette, 1943, SCOTUS ruled that the pledge can't be forced on a student or any other citizen.

Excerpts from the decision:

But the refusal of these persons to participate in the ceremony does not interfere with or deny rights of others to do so. Nor is there any question in this case that their behavior is peaceable and orderly. The sole conflict is between authority and rights of the individual.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

Bosso

 

[s35wf]

I pledge alligence to the flag of the united states of america


(why to a flag; material idol???)

and to the republic for which it stands

(we are NO longer a republic; they want democracy; actually we are facist now)

one nation under god
(we fallen from god's grace; we are bombing innocents )
indivisable
with liberty and justice for all
(What liberty or justice???; our reps are looting our country and stealing from its people)


i will not pledge during these troubled times; ill pledge when we return to actually being a republic, end the wars, and turn back into a country that offers its peoples liberty and justice.

thats what id tell em while sitting in the prinicples office

 

[satchelmcqueen]

i was raised in church , and for the most part, it was a good one with honest people. every year we would have a thing called Bible School which was just a week of night services divided into different age groups/classes, where we would study whatever from the bible and then do some kind of fun craft or learn a song.

at the beginning we would always say a pledge to the Christian flag (? never got that..where is that in the Bible??) and then we would say the pledge to the us flag. i never thought much about that then.

knowing what i know now, i just cant believe we did that in church, pledging to a flag or country. not only do i think that is breaking the "thou shalt not have no other gods before me", but to me i dont pledge to any government or flag.

 

[t0rnado]

I'm a junior in high school and we're forced to stand for the pledge every day here(North Eastern NJ). I stood in 9th and 10th grade even though I didn't want to. Then in September of this year, I decided not to stand.

I didn't stand for a few days and the absentminded teacher did not notice. A few weeks into the school year, she noticed and started yelling at me. I sat in my desk while the pledge was playing and she kept saying, "Get up! You have to stand." and I simply said, "No I don't."

At that point, she said that I was being disrespectful and handed me a detention form which I refused to sign. I thought that if I signed it, I would be admitting to doing something wrong. Then I was sent to the Vice Principal where she started talking to me about patriotism. She said that she'd get a Vietnam veteran to come in to talk to me. I told her that there were previous court rulings on this matter so I did not have to stand. She kept spewing bullshit about unity which annoyed me.

I told her about the history of the flag and she realized that she couldn't convince me to stand. Then, the next day, I was called into the school conference room and had to argue with a 9th grade history teacher who was "patriotic". He told me about people dieing in wars, 9/11, etc. He told me that some of the teacher's relatives died in Vietnam and the Vice Principal asked me if I'd go to war if there was a draft. I just laughed at that point.

Then I came home and learned that the Vice Principal had called my parents and told them I was being disrespectful. My parents didn't want trouble so they told her that I'd stand.

I know the laws pretty well and I know that there have been previous rulings on this matter, where the judge has said that the government cannot coerce anyone into standing. I could have sent a letter to the ACLU and pressed on with this matter, but I have other things to worry about like the SATs, the ACTs, etc.

Right now, NJ schools can't spend any money on anything including lawyers, so all I'd have to do is threaten them with a law suit. I plan on doing it next year when I'm a senior.

Presently, I stand with my back to the flag.

 

[user]

I'm a junior in high school and we're forced to stand for the pledge every day here(North Eastern NJ). I stood in 9th and 10th grade even though I didn't want to. Then in September of this year, I decided not to stand.

I didn't stand for a few days and the absentminded teacher did not notice. A few weeks into the school year, she noticed and started yelling at me. I sat in my desk while the pledge was playing and she kept saying, "Get up! You have to stand." and I simply said, "No I don't."

At that point, she said that I was being disrespectful and handed me a detention form which I refused to sign. I thought that if I signed it, I would be admitting to doing something wrong. Then I was sent to the Vice Principal where she started talking to me about patriotism. She said that she'd get a Vietnam veteran to come in to talk to me. I told her that there were previous court rulings on this matter so I did not have to stand. She kept spewing bullshit about unity which annoyed me.

I told her about the history of the flag and she realized that she couldn't convince me to stand. Then, the next day, I was called into the school conference room and had to argue with a 9th grade history teacher who was "patriotic". He told me about people dieing in wars, 9/11, etc. He told me that some of the teacher's relatives died in Vietnam and the Vice Principal asked me if I'd go to war if there was a draft. I just laughed at that point.

Then I came home and learned that the Vice Principal had called my parents and told them I was being disrespectful. My parents didn't want trouble so they told her that I'd stand.

I know the laws pretty well and I know that there have been previous rulings on this matter, where the judge has said that the government cannot coerce anyone into standing. I could have sent a letter to the ACLU and pressed on with this matter, but I have other things to worry about like the SATs, the ACTs, etc.

Right now, NJ schools can't spend any money on anything including lawyers, so all I'd have to do is threaten them with a law suit. I plan on doing it next year when I'm a senior.

Presently, I stand with my back to the flag.

Nice work! I hope when you go after them next year, they can't use the fact that you stood for now against you.

 

[Bruno]

I'm a junior in high school and we're forced to stand for the pledge every day here(North Eastern NJ). I stood in 9th and 10th grade even though I didn't want to. Then in September of this year, I decided not to stand.

I didn't stand for a few days and the absentminded teacher did not notice. A few weeks into the school year, she noticed and started yelling at me. I sat in my desk while the pledge was playing and she kept saying, "Get up! You have to stand." and I simply said, "No I don't."

At that point, she said that I was being disrespectful and handed me a detention form which I refused to sign. I thought that if I signed it, I would be admitting to doing something wrong. Then I was sent to the Vice Principal where she started talking to me about patriotism. She said that she'd get a Vietnam veteran to come in to talk to me. I told her that there were previous court rulings on this matter so I did not have to stand. She kept spewing bullshit about unity which annoyed me.

I told her about the history of the flag and she realized that she couldn't convince me to stand. Then, the next day, I was called into the school conference room and had to argue with a 9th grade history teacher who was "patriotic". He told me about people dieing in wars, 9/11, etc. He told me that some of the teacher's relatives died in Vietnam and the Vice Principal asked me if I'd go to war if there was a draft. I just laughed at that point.

Then I came home and learned that the Vice Principal had called my parents and told them I was being disrespectful. My parents didn't want trouble so they told her that I'd stand.

I know the laws pretty well and I know that there have been previous rulings on this matter, where the judge has said that the government cannot coerce anyone into standing. I could have sent a letter to the ACLU and pressed on with this matter, but I have other things to worry about like the SATs, the ACTs, etc.

Right now, NJ schools can't spend any money on anything including lawyers, so all I'd have to do is threaten them with a law suit. I plan on doing it next year when I'm a senior.

Presently, I stand with my back to the flag.

Thank you for sharing your story. Can you provide any links so I can learn more of the history of the flag? I've searched and only found history of the meaning of the stars and stripes, flag timelines, etc. Thanks.

 

[t0rnado]

Thank you for sharing your story. Can you provide any links so I can learn more of the history of the flag? I've searched and only found history of the meaning of the stars and stripes, flag timelines, etc. Thanks.

Ah, sorry, I meant the history of the pledge. It was created by a Christian socialist in the early 20th century and then edited during the second Red Scare. They used to have kids do the Bellamy salute until we learned about how Hitler did that too.

 

[agitator]

Nice job people. I agree with most of the posts here. However, although your parents pay taxes to support government schools, you are not forced to attend. Only if you are under 18 can your parents force you to do so. And in that case, well, you are under 18 and do not posses the same rights as an adult.

If your are under 18, it is between you and your parents, and your parents and the administrators.

18 and over, it is you. Don't like it, go somewhere else or decide to preform "civil disobedience."

Hats off to your division to take this on.

 

[Bruno]

Ah, sorry, I meant the history of the pledge. It was created by a Christian socialist in the early 20th century and then edited during the second Red Scare. They used to have kids do the Bellamy salute until we learned about how Hitler did that too.

Ok, thanks. I'll do a little more research on that. I don't know that history, either (just repeated the pledge 5,000 times because I was told to)

 

[powerofreason]

Nice job people. I agree with most of the posts here. However, although your parents pay taxes to support government schools, you are not forced to attend. Only if you are under 18 can your parents force you to do so. And in that case, well, you are under 18 and do not posses the same rights as an adult.

If your are under 18, it is between you and your parents, and your parents and the administrators.

18 and over, it is you. Don't like it, go somewhere else or decide to preform "civil disobedience."

Hats off to your division to take this on.

At this point, it makes little sense not to finish out the school year and get my diploma. Kinda makes the other 12 years worth it, ya know?

So thats not really a fair argument, that I am not actually forced to go to school at this point.

 

[jmag]

I don't mind the pledge because it still contains the words "republic" and "liberty". I see it as pledging allegiance to those ideals and necessarily in defiance of those elements that have eroded those ideals.

 

[newbitech]

i have season tickets to pro football games. It is traditional and socially demanded to stand take off your hat and put it over your heart during the singing of the national anthem.

I don't. I have had security people yell at me to take off my hat. I have had people around me throw stuff at me. Its a pretty humbling experience, but to be honest, I smile inside thinking that I am doing more to respect my country and all of its symbols by sitting quietly and taking the abuse from people who have no right to scream insults and throw stuff.

I laugh inside because they do not realize that by screaming and throwing things during the tradition ceremony they are showing the disrespect. I then use the opportunity afterward to explain to those around me who were also interrupted by the screaming and throwing of things that our country is in trouble and saluting the flag or participating in the traditional ceremonies without understanding the foundation of these acts is shallow and irresponsible.

Good luck to you kid, and don't worry about finishing high school, you have learned more than most at this stage. All you will need to do is take that confidence and experience into the marketplace and you will be able to earn a living and survive without compromising your morals and principles.

Take your stand now.

 

[angelatc]

Do what the president does.

That was not during the pledge. That was during the national anthem.

 

[angelatc]

I laugh inside because they do not realize that by screaming and throwing things during the tradition ceremony they are showing the disrespect.

Sure we do. You just do not deserve any respect.

 

[newbitech]

Sure we do. You just do not deserve any respect.

if you are among the idiots throwing stuff and yelling at me, what does that say about you?

 

[Bontemps]

if you are among the idiots throwing stuff and yelling at me, what does that say about you?

just because we don't agree with the government, or support its actions, we can still show respect to the flag, to our nation, our people. our flag stands for more than just the government, it stands for us, and i'll always stand for it.

 

[newbitech]

just because we don't agree with the government, or support its actions, we can still show respect to the flag, to our nation, our people. our flag stands for more than just the government, it stands for us, and i'll always stand for it.

of course we can. the point I was making is that people will throw stuff, and yell and scream DURING the ceremony. This is how they choose to spend that time. I choose to sit there comfortably in my seat knowing that more than 90% of those folks who do "stand for the flag" during the ceremony will not actually do anything about it when the ideals, freedom, and liberty that I express get destroyed. This is how I choose to protest THEIR negative actions/inaction during this time of ceremony.

I will honor my country and what the flag stands for in other ways. I choose to sit out the ceremonies because I believe them to be a farce.

 

[Athan]

The only thing that bothers me is the fact that it says "for the land of the free and the home of the brave."

The only thing I see is the land of the socialist, and home of the coward.