Something is Really Bothering Me

[psalm82x3]

If I do go through with this, and I'm strongly leaning toward it at this point, I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Its going to be very clear that I'm not trying to be a troublemaker or attention-getter. My guess of what will happen is my teacher will tell me to stand up, thinking I'm not paying attention or something. I'll just shake my head no at that point. If he comes over to me I'll quietly tell him I'm not doing the pledge anymore, as it violates what I believe in (freedom). If at this point he wants to make it a problem, he'll get a problem alright. If he tells me to go my administrator I'm not going anywhere. I can easily see getting in-school suspension at that point but I wonder whats going to happen if I keep staying sitting during the pledge. I'm not gonna worry about it.

You need to chill out and do it the right way. You need to ask for an exemption ahead of time.

 

[powerofreason]

You may be an adult, but you are surrounded by school kids when you are at school, and depending on the state, you may still be considered a minor for some purposes as long as you stay in school. Also, by going to school, you are implicitly agreeing to abide their rules. But do ask for an exemption and make your concerns known to the principal.

Anyways, thanks for bringing that picture to everyone's attention here. That is quite a history lesson you gave us.

School attendance is compulsory bud. If there was a free market in education I'd probably be out of school and working the past 4 or 5 years. Could I choose to go to a private school? No. My parents can't afford it. If they didn't have to pay property taxes they probably could. Private schools are still State-approved anyways. Its not like the market for education isn't extremely unfair and restricted. Did I agree to that? No.

 

[powerofreason]

Son, you need to chill out and do it the right way. You need to ask for an exemption ahead of time.

I respect your opinion but I disagree. I'm not going to bow down to these people. I'm not in any way obligated to do the pledge of allegiance and I'm going to exercise my right not to pledge. The rules say otherwise, I realize that.

 

[Scofield]

If I do go through with this, and I'm strongly leaning toward it at this point, I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Its going to be very clear that I'm not trying to be a troublemaker or attention-getter. My guess of what will happen is my teacher will tell me to stand up, thinking I'm not paying attention or something. I'll just shake my head no at that point. If he comes over to me I'll quietly tell him I'm not doing the pledge anymore, as it violates what I believe in (freedom). If at this point he wants to make it a problem, he'll get a problem alright. If he tells me to go my administrator I'm not going anywhere. I can easily see getting in-school suspension at that point but I wonder whats going to happen if I keep staying sitting during the pledge. I'm not gonna worry about it.

I agree with most of your plan, except, I would alter one thing. If you are told to go to the administrator's office, simply go to the office and make your argument to the administrator.

Tell him or her that you refuse to do the pledge, and list your reasons as for why. If he or she punishes you, you can contact a lawyer and find out if Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 is applicable to school administrators.

The right said administrator violated when he or she punished you, is your right to freedom of speech, or rather lack of speech. You have a right to speak, or not speak, and your decision to not engage in the Pledge of Allegiance (Go ahead and re-read that part: A pledge of Allegiance...sounds like something Hitler would advocate) is you choosing to rejoice in your right to speak/not speak freely. You are choosing not to incriminate yourself, by not stating any allegiance to the Crown. I also think there is a Supreme Court case out there which states you do not have to stand for the pledge of allegiance.

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't be certain any of the above would work. It does sound good on paper, though.

Edit: The only thing I worry about is that you (your parents) signed a contract when they enrolled you in that school, and said contract could strip you of your rights. The government won't be able to punish you for not partaking in the pledge, but if your contract states you must partake, the school does have the power to enforce that regulation.

 

[psalm82x3]

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't be certain any of the above would work. It does sound good on paper, though.

Thank you Scofield for adding a voice of reason. I think a lawyer may be called for as well, but definitely not a hot-head. Chill.

 

[almantimes2]

There's already about 6 other people in my class that don't stand during the pledge along with me.

The strange thing is that there all Obama freaks.
I do however stand up when the national anthem plays.

 

[Paulitical Correctness]

I don't really see any hotheadedness going on here...

Besides, the "proper" and "chill" way of going about things clearly doesn't get through.

Do what you feel is right, none of us can decide that. The passion younger members of this movement has will either make or break us (use it wisely...)

 

[Bruno]

There's already about 6 other people in my class that don't stand during the pledge along with me.

The strange thing is that there all Obama freaks.:confused:
I do however stand up when the national anthem plays.

They don't know why they are not standing, they are just following Obama's lead.

 

[Xenophage]

I am a senior in public high school. Every day in school I stand up for the pledge of allegiance. Lately, I've felt more and more disgusted by it. I stopped saying it since last year, but I do put my hand over my heart and stand up and look at the flag. Reasons I hate the pledge:

1. It was written by a national socialist (nazi) flag salesman.

2. The original salute to the flag was this:

3. I am pledging allegiance to the republic (the government) of America, which I hate heart and soul. I love America but I hate the American government, and all government for that matter.

4. Its brainwashing and its a demand of obedience. I'm not an obedient little slave.

I consider myself to be a deeply principled person. The pledge may not have a lot of meaning to a lot of people, its just something kids in school recite every day without thinking about it. But it really bothers me. Should I take a stand and stay seated for the pledge from now on? Would that be brave or foolish, in your opinion?

If asked why I won't do the pledge I'll say it violates my morals. If pressed further I'll say that I do not support organizations that operate through violence and coercion. How's that?

I started refusing to say the pledge in 4th grade. I got in a lot of trouble at school and was generally miserable for it, but stubborn. Looking back, I find it a source of pride, so it paid off

 

[powerofreason]

I agree with most of your plan, except, I would alter one thing. If you are told to go to the administrator's office, simply go to the office and make your argument to the administrator.

Tell him or her that you refuse to do the pledge, and list your reasons as for why. If he or she punishes you, you can contact a lawyer and find out if Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 is applicable to school administrators.

The right said administrator violated when he or she punished you, is your right to freedom of speech, or rather lack of speech. You have a right to speak, or not speak, and your decision to not engage in the Pledge of Allegiance (Go ahead and re-read that part: A pledge of Allegiance...sounds like something Hitler would advocate) is you choosing to rejoice in your right to speak/not speak freely. You are choosing not to incriminate yourself, by not stating any allegiance to the Crown. I also think there is a Supreme Court case out there which states you do not have to stand for the pledge of allegiance.

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't be certain any of the above would work. It does sound good on paper, though.

Edit: The only thing I worry about is that you (your parents) signed a contract when they enrolled you in that school, and said contract could strip you of your rights. The government won't be able to punish you for not partaking in the pledge, but if your contract states you must partake, the school does have the power to enforce that regulation.

Legally, I may be stripped of my rights. The law is wrong. I don't go by the laws, I go by whats right, according to the non-aggression principle (don't harm person or property). Getting suspended is not a punishment for me, thats why I don't care. I'd just be getting a nice little vacation from school. I only have 4 classes, 3 of which are pretty easy, the other is moderately tedious. And clearly any contracts were signed under duress as my parents are forced to school me and pay property taxes. Its not a real contract. And I'm definitely not hiring a lawyer. I don't have any money and I certainly wouldn't ask my parents to pay up. Maybe the ACLU will get involved. I doubt it. I'm not expecting this to be a big deal.

Also, I'm not going to college, so I'm not at risk of losing out in that area. I plan on going to technical school, possibly for phlebotomy. Still deciding.

Absolute worst case scenario is I get expelled for repeated disobedience, in that case I would probably get a G.E.D. if they wouldn't give me a diploma. Not really sure how expulsion works. My parents wouldn't be happy obviously but I'd be very satisfied knowing that I stood up for myself and what I believe in and didn't back down.

 

[psalm82x3]

I don't really see any hotheadedness going on here...

Besides, the "proper" and "chill" way of going about things clearly doesn't get through.

Do what you feel is right, none of us can decide that. The passion younger members of this movement has will either make or break us (use it wisely...)

Um, Powerofreason posted hot-headedly, please re-read his posts.

The proper and chill way does work. It is the Ron Paul way. Notice that Ron Paul himself does not make salt like Ghandi or sit down like Rosa.

Christian non-violence like that of Quakers, Thoreau, Tolstoy, Ghandi, MLK, and Rosa also historically works, but is highly dangerous, and should not be encouraged or condoned at gradeschools even, or especially, when done by an 18 year-old. I also, as I posted earlier, do not even encourage adults to partake in Christian non-violence, because I encourage them to go the Ron Paul way. Speak your mind, reason with people, try and get the income tax repealed, but pay your taxes in the meantime. That is the Ron Paul way.

 

[powerofreason]

This week is February vacation at my school, so I will be starting my disobedience next monday. I'll let you all know what happens.

 

[Scofield]

Another thing, YOU [powerofreason] didn't sign the contract. No contract can be enforced unless entered into legally and by your own will. You can use that in your argument as well. I anxiously await to hear back as to how it went, and I wish you the best of luck.

Hopefully you don't get punished, and your message gets across. Do your best to get your message across, and if you are punished, take all the steps necessary to send a nice "fuck you" to the school.

 

[psalm82x3]

This week is February vacation at my school, so I will be starting my disobedience next monday. I'll let you all know what happens.

I am beginning to wonder if you are being disingenuous, and are not trying to entrap people. Please stop. This is a forum to discuss the ideas of Ron Paul who does not actively encourage civil disobedience, and certainly not where it could cause a commotion in a classroom. Mods...please review.

 

[powerofreason]

I am beginning to wonder if you are being disingenuous, and are not trying to entrap people. Please stop. This is a forum to discuss the ideas of Ron Paul who does not actively encourage civil disobedience, and certainly not where it could cause a commotion in a classroom. Mods...please review.

I told you I'll be doing this in a study hall and I won't be doing anything to draw extra attention to myself. I disagree with your views on civil disobedience and I have a hard time believing Ron Paul would look down on what I'm doing. I don't agree with Ron Paul 100% of the time, that doesn't mean I can't be on this forum. I'm standing up for my natural rights in my own way. If you want to passively submit to your oppressors thats your choice, ok?

Edit: And what the heck do you mean by "trying to entrap people" ????

 

[Scofield]

I am beginning to wonder if you are being disingenuous, and are not trying to entrap people. Please stop. This is a forum to discuss the ideas of Ron Paul who does not actively encourage civil disobedience, and certainly not where it could cause a commotion in a classroom. Mods...please review.

Ron Paul absolutely does support civil disobedience.

You can skip to the 5:00 minute mark in the video if you don't want to watch it all.

 

[Paulitical Correctness]

Mods...please review.

Wth? Because you and OP don't align on "appropriate" civil disobedience?

Requesting that the mods review someone's opposing opinion is awful authoritarian of you.

 

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

Ron Paul absolutely does support civil disobedience.

You can skip to the 5:00 minute mark in the video if you don't want to watch it all.

this

 

[Bruno]

Ron Paul absolutely does support civil disobedience.

"I think civil disobedience is a very important tactic." Ron Paul, 09/2008

 

[dude58677]

I am a senior in public high school. Every day in school I stand up for the pledge of allegiance. Lately, I've felt more and more disgusted by it. I stopped saying it since last year, but I do put my hand over my heart and stand up and look at the flag. Reasons I hate the pledge:

1. It was written by a national socialist (nazi) flag salesman.

2. The original salute to the flag was this:

3. I am pledging allegiance to the republic (the government) of America, which I hate heart and soul. I love America but I hate the American government, and all government for that matter.

4. Its brainwashing and its a demand of obedience. I'm not an obedient little slave.

I consider myself to be a deeply principled person. The pledge may not have a lot of meaning to a lot of people, its just something kids in school recite every day without thinking about it. But it really bothers me. Should I take a stand and stay seated for the pledge from now on? Would that be brave or foolish, in your opinion?

If asked why I won't do the pledge I'll say it violates my morals. If pressed further I'll say that I do not support organizations that operate through violence and coercion. How's that?

Civil Disobedience!