Smoote-Hawley Tarriff

[Fox McCloud]

I'm going to leave this...right....here:

 

[nobody's_hero]

You're a good poster and a Ron Paul supporter, it's just frustrating that you don't agree with us on this issue.

Same to you, although, our 'us' is much smaller than your 'us', given the poll results floating around in that other thread. I think it was around 75% for 'removal of all trade barriers'.

But, despite being in the minority, and despite the fact that those in charge will never listen to the 'protectionists' on RPF, I still waste my time on these issues, when there are more critical issues that we could be working towards.

It's just . . . hard to stay out of these 'free trade' threads when you're basically seeing the exact opposite in what the free traders assure us is a positive shift for this economy.

 

[-C-]

If what you're advocating is protectionism, such as tarrifs, fixed exchange rates of currencies, and essentially other anti-free trade/market measures....these people here will chew you up and spit you out. Probably ban you once or twice after everyone becomes inflamed and rages at, and about you, for a couple of days.

So stop making sense.

 

[romacox]

Same to you, although, our 'us' is much smaller than your 'us', given the poll results floating around in that other thread. I think it was around 75% for 'removal of all trade barriers'.

But, despite being in the minority, and despite the fact that those in charge will never listen to the 'protectionists' on RPF, I still waste my time on these issues, when there are more critical issues that we could be working towards.

It's just . . . hard to stay out of these 'free trade' threads when you're basically seeing the exact opposite in what the free traders assure us is a positive shift for this economy.

Yes like end the FED, and their move toward a "Global Governance". That would do wounder take care of all the misinformation in our textbooks since Woodrow Wilson, correct the economy, ext . An audit of the Fed would reveal much truth about these free trade deals.

 

[Bossobass]

Nope, if other countries want to put import-tariffs & raise the prices of their domestic goods then so be it, we needn't "reciprocate" & raise prices of goods here, that'd be stupidity

And I find it quite funny that all the "tariffers" seem to think that the only reason the country is where it is because of not having tariffs & if we'd tariffs everything would be great People are missing the basic point that all of these problems are caused by Fed, warfare-welfare-state, overregulation & overtaxation & if these things are taken care of then there'd be so many businesses who'd want to set up shop here & there'd be so many jobs & productivity that tariffs won't be needed anyway.

It should be obvious to any rational person that even if tariffs are raised on the manufacturing imports to protect local manufacturing industries, it'd raise the prices quite a bit & there'd be more price inflation than there already is so again, if other countries want to raise their domestic prices then let them but that doesn't mean we should be just as stupid as them. Again, economic problems that are there have been caused by Fed, overregulation & overtaxation so deregulation, cutting taxes & having sound money is the cure, NOT tariffs.

You seem to have it backwards.

If any country has anything we need/want and we have anything they need/want, reciprocity removes the tariffs and other barriers. If that country wishes to only export while placing impossible barriers on imports, (especially when that country engages in dumping and other mafia tactics) while promising to set aside a percentage of the enormous prosperity that results in to perpetuate US government deficit spending for the privilege, tariffs it is. That's free trade in the real world.

Free Traders are all the same. Free trade does not exist and never has and never will. It's a corporate slogan and nothing more.

For those of us who actually still make shit people in the rest of the world want to buy, free trade is a bullshit sandwich to go with your mug of piss. You face 100% tax, 19% VAT and 6% Duty, but if they have a knock off cheap version of your very same product, order it and it will be at your doorstep in 5 days via air freight, no VAT, no TAX, no DUTY.

Honestly, why people want to take that shit for decades while they carry the "Free Trade is GOOD" signs into every public discussion is too baffling for me to comprehend.

Mega corporations do not pay US taxes and can spill a billion gallons of oil in the ocean, cover it up with poisonous chemicals and walk away with impunity while decreeing that the US taxpayer should eat the damages, so spare me the oppressive tax/regulations angle. Taxation and regulations are written by the megas and handed to their congress-slaves to enact to eliminate small business from the equation.

Free trade assures their move offshore will be a 100% success while small business withers on the vine domestically. That's because they know we'd kick the shit out of them on a level playing field.

It blows to spend your own money to develop a unique and high quality product because every red cent of available capital goes to the government (and through welfare, straight into the coffers of the megas) and when Indians, Chinese, Europeans, Japanese, etc., contact you wanting to purchase your product, you have to say no because their countries trade barriers double the price of your wares or block them altogether. It blows even more to hear average citizens crying "Free Trade, you dumb whiners!".

Bosso

 

[Jace]

..

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Same to you, although, our 'us' is much smaller than your 'us', given the poll results floating around in that other thread. I think it was around 75% for 'removal of all trade barriers'.

But, despite being in the minority, and despite the fact that those in charge will never listen to the 'protectionists' on RPF, I still waste my time on these issues, when there are more critical issues that we could be working towards.

It's just . . . hard to stay out of these 'free trade' threads when you're basically seeing the exact opposite in what the free traders assure us is a positive shift for this economy.

The Fed is still the number 1 issue, and the income tax number 2.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

You seem to have it backwards.

If any country has anything we need/want and we have anything they need/want, reciprocity removes the tariffs and other barriers. If that country wishes to only export while placing impossible barriers on imports, (especially when that country engages in dumping and other mafia tactics) while promising to set aside a percentage of the enormous prosperity that results in to perpetuate US government deficit spending for the privilege, tariffs it is. That's free trade in the real world.

You can't seem get your economics straight.

The living standards of people in a country depend on the cheap & abundant supply of all the desirable goods/services. Even if a country is blocking our exports, it's hurting it's own people, subjecting them to lesser living standards, & if we "retaliate" then that raises prices of goods in America & less goods are available domestically, they are much costlier than they otherwise would be & thereby Americans are subjected to lower living standards.

Your position of "reciprocity" is like saying you wouldn't buy something from a person unless he buys something from you, imagine how terrible your life will be if YOU PERSONALLY tried to produce everything that others wanted & in return to buy what you want from them, you wouldn't be able to make everything cost-effectively & of high quality & YOUR PERSONAL living standard will be TERRIBLE. Now, apply the same logic to the country as a whole & realize the problems it causes.

If a country doesn't buy anything from us then somebody else will but that's no reason for us to increase costs & lower living standards of Americans by forcing them to buy costlier, less cost-effective goods. If we're getting cheaper goods from someone then that allows our enterpreneurs & local capital to focus on meeting our other demands or demands of those nations who do want our exports & that will create jobs & prosperity for Americans, unnecessarily raising prices & lowering the supply of cheaper products will NOT do that.

And blaming other countries for buying our deficit is just as ludicrous as blaming the banks for giving your loans, well, other countries aren't forcing our government to waste on warfare-welfare, they shouldn't be doing that anyway, this blame-game of blaming other nations for the mistakes of our poor governance is the height of ludicrousness.

Free Traders are all the same. Free trade does not exist and never has and never will. It's a corporate slogan and nothing more.

Sure, they talk about "free trade" but they're NOT for it, they're for "corporatized regulated managed trade" & blaming REAL free trade because of that is like blaming "patriotism" because of "Patriot Act" is crap. It just doesn't make sense.

For those of us who actually still make shit people in the rest of the world want to buy, free trade is a bullshit sandwich to go with your mug of piss. You face 100% tax, 19% VAT and 6% Duty, but if they have a knock off cheap version of your very same product, order it and it will be at your doorstep in 5 days via air freight, no VAT, no TAX, no DUTY.

This is ludicrous, it's GOOD that they're offering us cheap products so we don't need to make them here, so that our enterpreneurs & capital can focus on OTHER stuff that people here need & we'll work on producing those other things cheaply & of high quality here, & if they don't take it from us, who cares, we're getting their stuff cheaply & creating the rest ourselves while their people are forced to pay higher prices & subjected to lower living standards.

You guys here are just playing the political blame-game, if we can't solve our problems then blame someone else for them, that's what you're doing.

AGAIN, our real problems are Fed, unsound currency, over-regulation, over-taxation, socialism wasting savings/capital & corporatized agreements like NAFTA, CAFTA, etc which are NOT free trade, they benefit big corps at the cost of smaller industries, & if these things are gotten rid of then that'll in itself bring lots of jobs, abundant goods/services & higher living standards for America as a whole.

Honestly, why people want to take that shit for decades while they carry the "Free Trade is GOOD" signs into every public discussion is too baffling for me to comprehend.

Yeah, well, that requires understanding economics, the classical economics which has always been about sound money, deregulated markets, minimum taxation & free trade.

Mega corporations do not pay US taxes and can spill a billion gallons of oil in the ocean, cover it up with poisonous chemicals and walk away with impunity while decreeing that the US taxpayer should eat the damages, so spare me the oppressive tax/regulations angle. Taxation and regulations are written by the megas and handed to their congress-slaves to enact to eliminate small business from the equation.

Why is it SO DIFFICULT for people here to understand that NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO are NOT part of the REAL free trade. Seriously, Ron has been saying this for YEARS. And if Congress isn't doing their job then that's the problem of Congress, raising domestic prices of goods by imposing tariffs on imports & subjecting Americans to higher prices & lower living standards is NOT going to help. And guess what, because Congress does NOT work for the people, all the more reasons to disallow them the ability to impose tariffs because early American history is very clear that politicians have always wanted to put tariffs on competing foreign goods to protect their favored local businesses & thereby allowing local businesses that fund politicians to squeeze much higher prices from the American people. Tariffs even played a significant role in Northern politicians using tariffs to protect Northern businesses & forcing the South to buy much costlier goods.

Free trade assures their move offshore will be a 100% success while small business withers on the vine domestically. That's because they know we'd kick the shit out of them on a level playing field.

Corporations are leaving America because of over-regulation, over-taxation, if they're gotten rid of then many of them around the world would definitely want to set up shop here & create jobs & produce more cheaper, high quality goods/services.

It blows to spend your own money to develop a unique and high quality product because every red cent of available capital goes to the government (and through welfare, straight into the coffers of the megas) and when Indians, Chinese, Europeans, Japanese, etc., contact you wanting to purchase your product, you have to say no because their countries trade barriers double the price of your wares or block them altogether. It blows even more to hear average citizens crying "Free Trade, you dumb whiners!".[/QUOTE]

It's important to understand free trade, not just the theory but how it has worked in practice. Free trade has a long history that predates the Athenian Empire. It has been implemented across time with results that are consistent over the centuries. Free trade has winners and losers.

It is extreme intellectual dishonesty of you "tariffers" that it's the classical economics which supports sound free market money, deregulated markets, minimum taxation AND free trade that you hail all its other aspects & yet see free trade as something sinister *facepalm*

How did most of guys find out about Fed & the monatary system, who showed you the right way of going about a sound currency, who told about less taxation & deregulation? It was the classical & Austrian economics & just because you can't understand how free trade works or what REAL free trade is, you start criticizing the same schoool of economics that liberated you from your mainstream regulated, centrally planned economics? REALLY REALLY intellectually dishonest.

America rose when it had high tariffs while Britain declined under free trade.

America rose INSPITE of tariffs, NOT because, it surpassed Britain, naturally because it was a much much bigger country with more natural & human resources & largely unregulated, untaxed environment allowed it prosper like no other nation ever had but that was INSPITE of tariffs, NOT because of them.

In fact, tariffs had been one of the main tools of favoritism & corporatism within America until the early 20th century because that's the only power politicians had of sucking money out of the Americans, tariffs were regularly used to favor local businesses that bribed politicians & they were a source of enormous corporatism, & they even played a significant role in the Civil War as corporatist Northern politicians had for decades used tariffs on Southern imports in order to make Northern manufacturing goods more competitive as well as to gather government revenue in order to subsidize Northern businesses.

All this nonsense about this guy & that guy was for "free trade" & then he did so & so bad things is ludicrous, they talked about "free trade", in the same way "Patriot Act" is NOT about patriotism, it's a misnomer & misleads people, in the same, they use the word "free trade" when they talk about NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, etc etc which are NOT the REAL free trade anyway, they're corporatized trade agreements that benefit the biggies & NONE of the free traders here support that.

Again, the problems of America stem from Fed, unsound currency, over-regulation, over-taxation, destruction of capital through socialism & corporatism, unless these issues are resolved, you're going to get America to rise again, & making goods costlier & thereby lowering Americans' living standards by putting tariffs is NOT going to do that.

 

[The Grinning Maniac]

Your position of "reciprocity" is like saying you wouldn't buy something from a person unless he buys something from you, imagine how terrible your life will be if YOU PERSONALLY tried to produce everything that others wanted & in return to buy what you want from them, you wouldn't be able to make everything cost-effectively & of high quality & YOUR PERSONAL living standard will be TERRIBLE. Now, apply the same logic to the country as a whole & realize the problems it causes.

That logic doesn't follow, because the country as a whole should be capable of producing everything that everyone needs and trading equally. We used to, didn't we?

This is ludicrous, it's GOOD that they're offering us cheap products so we don't need to make them here, so that our enterpreneurs & capital can focus on OTHER stuff that people here need & we'll work on producing those other things cheaply & of high quality here

....What things? There's an entire economy's worth of new stuff that the Chinese CAN'T make? Explain. Give me an example.

As an aside, think of all the creative businesses we could have if we legalized every drug, prostitution and high-explosives for civilian use.

"Bob's House of Acid and Ass"
(I'm actually slightly serious.)

If we're going to have a service economy, let's get SERIOUS.

As an aside, I have a question. You'll hate it I'm sure, but what about barring US manufacturers from having their plants overseas if they want to do business with America? Do you see that as having undesirable effects?

 

[showpan]

One of the problems with the free trade argument is that other countries are not on board. They still charge us to do business there but we no longer charge them. This is not going to change anytime soon. Lower tariffs did not result in them doing the same. High tariffs in this country have resulted in at least 150 years of proven growth within this nation. Corrupt politicians have used them to punish others just as people kill, not guns. The only way to accomplish Ron Paul's goal of 0 taxes would be e return to the old system that made this country the biggest industrialized nation in the world. High tariffs and no taxes. He would also eliminate the many regulations that have been designed to steal money and kill our growth and jobs. This would essentially set up a "free market" within this country and wean us off the dependency of the British....oops, I mean the Chinese who can now buy up our land and contribute as much as they want to Obama's campaign.
I do actually want a free market....I want it here.
I do not want to be the worlds halfway house, police, bank, enablers...or whatever else they have planned for us.

 

[showpan]

it double posted again...lol

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

That logic doesn't follow, because the country as a whole should be capable of producing everything that everyone needs and trading equally. We used to, didn't we?

Here's what is NOT logical. Raising prices on domestic goods by imposing tariffs, which means goods are costlier for Americans to buy, which means they'll be able to enjoy LESS goods/services & therefore, have a lower living standard.

Again, let's say you decide that YOU PERSONALLY would make your own fridge, your own TV, grow your own food on your land, etc etc How efficient would that be? Would you be able to make everything & do it as well as it can be done? Probably not. So isn't it more efficient if you'd focus on doing things that you CAN do well & buy rest of the stuff cheaply & cost-effectively from others who CAN make it more cost-effectively from others from the income you have?

The idea that a country should be able to meet all its citizens' needs is chimerical & only those people who believe in CENTRAL-PLANNING would contemplate anything like that. Freedom & free markets DON'T work like that.

When you've freedom, people will want to buy the most cost-effective goods/services so putting unnecessary costs by putting tariffs & thereby raising prices & lowering people's living standards does NOT help. Again, if someone is providing us with goods more cost-effectively AND if we're not over-regulated & over-taxed then enterpreneurs here will move our local labor & capital to meet our OTHER local demands that they CAN meet more easily, not to mention capital from other countries will also come here as well & create OTHER goods/services more cost-effectively & improve living standards of America as a whole.

....What things? There's an entire economy's worth of new stuff that the Chinese CAN'T make? Explain. Give me an example.

Here's the thing, I don't believe in communist central-planning so I don't know what goods/services enterpreneurs will be interested in producing if we're NOT over-regulated & over-taxed & allow freedom to prosper but if they're given an unregulated untaxed market to work with then they'll produce things that have a demand in America as well as in other countries & things that they CAN do well.

Some of you people here act as if China is the only country that exists other than US & like China is some cornucopia that produces everything & does it really well, when that's NOT the truth at all. Our problems are local, over-regulation that's choking enterpreneurship & over-taxation & socialism that's destroying capital, & causing the capital to run to other countries, these issues need fixing & things will automatically get better if we let freedom work its magic, for the most part, freedom is what turned destitute slave colonies into the most powerful Republic ever.

As an aside, think of all the creative businesses we could have if we legalized every drug, prostitution and high-explosives for civilian use.

"Bob's House of Acid and Ass"
(I'm actually slightly serious.)

If we're going to have a service economy, let's get SERIOUS.

Service economy is what developed countries depend on, it's a natural progression while developing countries depend highly on labor-intensive LOW-PAID manufacturing; if a country/government tries to "direct" capital & labor into a certain industry against the natural inclination of the markets then that only hurts the people even more; and besides, if we're "lucky" to have an economic collapse & thereby see a tremendous drop in our living standards & income-expectations then we might see more manufacturing jobs coming back in as well as more destitution & poverty like we see in China, India, etc I'm sure you guys will love it then

As an aside, I have a question. You'll hate it I'm sure, but what about barring US manufacturers from having their plants overseas if they want to do business with America? Do you see that as having undesirable effects?

It's economic effects aside, if you believe in government dictatorship & that Americans don't deserve their freedoms then nothing wrong with that

On the side of economics, if an American business is producing the same goods more cost-effectively overseas then blocking them again has the effect of unnecessarily forcing Americans to buy more costlier goods than they need to, which means they're subjected to lower living standards than they would've'd otherwise.

On the issue of "lost jobs", it again comes down to the question of WHY? Why do businesses leave America? The answer again, comes down to over-regulation choking enterpreneurship, & over-taxation & socialism destroying capital, & causing the capital to go overseas. If we've free markets then we'll've enough jobs & goods/services & a good living standard that we won't be bothered about some American companies going overseas or China using tariffs on our exports to the effect of lowering THEIR people's living standards.

One of the problems with the free trade argument is that other countries are not on board.

As has been pointed out many a times, it does NOT matter. Putting retaliatory tariffs on our imports only raises our domestic prices & thereby Americans are able to enjoy LESS goods/services than they otherwise would & that lowers Americans' living standards; subjecting one's own citizens to lower living standards because some other country is doing it to their citizens is stupidity.

As I've said, if China blocks our exports then that labor & capital which goes into things that we export to them, will go into other areas, & into other local & foreign demands for goods/services, the labor & capital merely relocates. Again, the REAL problem today is that of over-regulation choking enterpreneurship & over-taxation & socialism destroying American capital & causing American capital to go overseas as well as capital in other countries is reluctant to come here due to over-regulation & over-taxation so solving these issues are the crux of the matter; putting tariffs on imports is like treating the symptoms instead of treating the disease, that's doesn't help.

They still charge us to do business there but we no longer charge them.

They aren't charging "us", they're essentially charging THEIR PEOPLE & forcing them to pay higher prices on our products while allowing local corporations to make higher profits at the expense of ordinary people & thereby subjecting THEIR PEOPLE to lower living standards, we ought NOT to do the same to our people.

High tariffs in this country have resulted in at least 150 years of proven growth within this nation.

Nope, America grew IN SPITE of politicians & corporations raping Americans with higher costs & tariffs, NOT because of it. America grew because it was a largely unregulated, untaxed market which allowed enterpreneurial spirit to prosper & allowed labor & capital to be go into productive areas AND America & Americans would've been BETTER OFF without politicians & corporatist businesses looting American people with tariffs & higher prices for goods/services.

Corrupt politicians have used them to punish others just as people kill, not guns.

This is how socialists also argue that just because politicians misuse regulation doesn't mean we shouldn't have regulation but such arguments are fallacious to the core, politicians always have & always will misuse their power to benefit those businesses that bribe & fund them, back then they used tariffs, today they do it in the name of "regulation" so if you get rid of regulation & hand tariffs back to them then they'll again use them to benefit their favored businesses so that they could make higher profits at the expense of American people paying higher prices for goods & having lower living standards.

The only way to accomplish Ron Paul's goal of 0 taxes would be e return to the old system that made this country the biggest industrialized nation in the world. High tariffs and no taxes.

As has been pointed out many a times before, tariffs DEFINITELY are a TAX on the American people as American people are forced to pay much higher prices for goods, & what's worse is that tariffs are an inequitable form of taxation, a socialist type of tax since not every American will buy imported goods & not every American will buy them to the same extent, so some Americans will be paying higher tariff-tax than others which is akin to a policy adopted by socialist governments that think they can treat all their citizens differently but in a free society, that should NOT happen, all Americans MUST be treated EQUALLY by their government & thus, the tax must equal or equitable, which is where tariffs fail completely.

He would also eliminate the many regulations that have been designed to steal money and kill our growth and jobs.

If that much is done then you won't need tariffs anyway; further, tariffs are ALSO a form of market regulation which also needs to be done away with in order to rid ourselves of favoritism & corporatism.

This would essentially set up a "free market"
I do actually want a free market....I want it here.

Tariffs are incompatible with free markets, tariffs are used to protect inefficient businesses at the expense of more efficient businesses & at the expense of American people.

 

[showpan]

Here's what is NOT logical. Raising prices on domestic goods by imposing tariffs, which means goods are costlier for Americans to buy, which means they'll be able to enjoy LESS goods/services & therefore, have a lower living standard.

Tariffs do not raise the price for goods made and sold here. They raise the price on cheap foreign goods that in many cases have been copied and use slave and child labor. Your logic is flawed because of this and the fact that most of what we export are decent paying jobs and now 1/4 of this country has a living standard comparable to a 3rd world country. Tariffs are still imposed on our goods and China is doing quite well, their people aren't, but their economy makes ours look silly now that we have chewed our own feet off.

The idea that a country should be able to meet all its citizens' needs is chimerical & only those people who believe in CENTRAL-PLANNING would contemplate anything like that. Freedom & free markets DON'T work like that.

There is no such things as a free market.

When you've freedom, people will want to buy the most cost-effective goods/services so putting unnecessary costs by putting tariffs & thereby raising prices & lowering people's living standards does NOT help. Again, if someone is providing us with goods more cost-effectively AND if we're not over-regulated & over-taxed then enterpreneurs here will move our local labor & capital to meet our OTHER local demands that they CAN meet more easily, not to mention capital from other countries will also come here as well & create OTHER goods/services more cost-effectively & improve living standards of America as a whole.

This country is dying....see my first response.

Some of you people here act as if China is the only country that exists other than US & like China is some cornucopia that produces everything & does it really well, when that's NOT the truth at all. Our problems are local, over-regulation that's choking enterpreneurship & over-taxation & socialism that's destroying capital, & causing the capital to run to other countries, these issues need fixing & things will automatically get better if we let freedom work its magic, for the most part, freedom is what turned destitute slave colonies into the most powerful Republic ever.

It's not socialism that has destroyed capitol, it's greed.

Service economy is what developed countries depend on, it's a natural progression while developing countries depend highly on labor-intensive LOW-PAID manufacturing; if a country/government tries to "direct" capital & labor into a certain industry against the natural inclination of the markets then that only hurts the people even more; and besides, if we're "lucky" to have an economic collapse & thereby see a tremendous drop in our living standards & income-expectations then we might see more manufacturing jobs coming back in as well as more destitution & poverty like we see in China, India, etc I'm sure you guys will love it then

This country will not and cannot survive on a service economy. You are not going to take 10 Million people from manufacturing and turn them into "doctors and lawyers"....instead, what has actually happened, is that some of them now work at Walmart and McDonalds......how much of a pay cut was it? The rest are still unemployed. Developed nations like we once were, rely on manufacturing to support service. As more and more people get fired, more and more "service" jobs and companies are disappearing. It's happening weekly, companies closing, more people are unemployed. Less taxes are collected, and now the government is on the verge of financial ruin, along with 1/4 of the countries population. We are in a depression.

It's economic effects aside, if you believe in government dictatorship & that Americans don't deserve their freedoms then nothing wrong with that

Corporate fascism is taking hold and it is the direct result of dismantling a strong middle class. Without money and jobs, the people cannot fight back.

On the side of economics, if an American business is producing the same goods more cost-effectively overseas then blocking them again has the effect of unnecessarily forcing Americans to buy more costlier goods than they need to, which means they're subjected to lower living standards than they would've'd otherwise.

Again, the living standards have already been lowered by the removal of tariffs. The unemployment in this country is a direct result of NAFTA. Immigration is an indirect result.

On the issue of "lost jobs", it again comes down to the question of WHY? Why do businesses leave America? The answer again, comes down to over-regulation choking enterpreneurship, & over-taxation & socialism destroying capital, & causing the capital to go overseas. If we've free markets then we'll've enough jobs & goods/services & a good living standard that we won't be bothered about some American companies going overseas or China using tariffs on our exports to the effect of lowering THEIR people's living standards.

Why did companies leave, they were payed to leave.

As has been pointed out many a times, it does NOT matter. Putting retaliatory tariffs on our imports only raises our domestic prices & thereby Americans are able to enjoy LESS goods/services than they otherwise would & that lowers Americans' living standards; subjecting one's own citizens to lower living standards because some other country is doing it to their citizens is stupidity.

Stupid is what we have now, dog food that kills, drywall that makes people sick, baby toys that make them ill. Less choice, higher prices, smaller cans, less services....you are like opposite day.

As I've said, if China blocks our exports then that labor & capital which goes into things that we export to them, will go into other areas, & into other local & foreign demands for goods/services, the labor & capital merely relocates. Again, the REAL problem today is that of over-regulation choking enterpreneurship & over-taxation & socialism destroying American capital & causing American capital to go overseas as well as capital in other countries is reluctant to come here due to over-regulation & over-taxation so solving these issues are the crux of the matter; putting tariffs on imports is like treating the symptoms instead of treating the disease, that's doesn't help.

NAFTA and the FED killed this country...without jobs, people can't survive, they loose their homes, they can't buy cars, they can't buy food, they can't pay taxes...local government can no longer survive, state governments start to go bankrupt and federal government is doomed......if you think that this wasn't planned, you are still sleeping.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

Tariffs do not raise the price for goods made and sold here. They raise the price on cheap foreign goods that in many cases have been copied and use slave and child labor.

Yes, tariffs block cheaper imports which means people here are FORCED to buy COSTLIER local products & their living standard goes down because MORE of their income is spent on buying LESS goods/services.

And most of those people in China are NOT slaves, they get PAID for their work & they can leave the work & choose another one, that's NOT slavery unless you're going to be making COMMUNIST "wage slavery" argument which wouldn't be surprising at all with all the anti-freedom communist arguments you're making anyway.

There's nothing wrong as such about child-labor either, if those children don't work what they can then their family's income goes down & most would be starved & die anyway.

Tariffs are still imposed on our goods and China is doing quite well, their people aren't

Eventually the TRUTH comes out, china & its businesses are doing very well because of tariffs but NOT its people & that's exactly what tariffs do, they help the government & businesses make more money BUT the people suffer

There is no such things as a free market.

Of course not when there are so many communists/socialists like you in the world who believe in leeching off other people

It's not socialism that has destroyed capitol, it's greed.

Typical communist/socialist response, making generic statements & then suggesting anti-liberty anti-freedom communist/socialist COERCIVE "solutions"

You are not going to take 10 Million people from manufacturing and turn them into "doctors and lawyers"....instead, what has actually happened, is that some of them now work at Walmart and McDonalds......how much of a pay cut was it? The rest are still unemployed.

So you want OTHERS to pay HIGHER PRICES & thereby have lower living standard just so that these 10 million could be better off? That's exactly what defines socialism, some people FORCED to suffer for others

Who says they need to be "doctors & lawyers"? They don't. They should earn according to what work they're capable of doing or improve/increase their skills in order to command higher wages, that's how a NON-communist/socialist free society works ie people earn according to their skill & talent.

Again, I've mentioned over & over again, tariffs are NOT going to magically solve these problems, the real problems are Fed, over-regulation, over-taxation & destruction of capital through socialism & causing the capital to go overseas; and UNLESS these things are gotten rid of NOTHING is going to change, putting tariffs will just raise prices & lower the living standard of the country as a whole.

Developed nations like we once were, rely on manufacturing to support service. As more and more people get fired, more and more "service" jobs and companies are disappearing. It's happening weekly, companies closing, more people are unemployed. Less taxes are collected, and now the government is on the verge of financial ruin, along with 1/4 of the countries population. We are in a depression.

See above.

Tariffs are NOT going to solve any of these problems & it's sheer economic ignorance to think otherwise, tariffs will only raise prices & lower the living standard of America as a whole.

Corporate fascism is taking hold and it is the direct result of dismantling a strong middle class. Without money and jobs, the people cannot fight back.

And tariffs will make people even poorer as the income is further "redistributed" by forcing some people to pay higher prices for goods for the sake of other people securing a little higher wage; the prosperity of the country is dictated by the amount of goods/services available within the country & blocking cheaper products to protect costlier products leads to REDUCTION in the amount of goods/services available within the country & the general living standard of Americans is lowered & they become poorer, just like they do under ANY form of socialism INCLUDING tariff-related socialism.

Again, the living standards have already been lowered by the removal of tariffs. The unemployment in this country is a direct result of NAFTA. Immigration is an indirect result.

Again, living standards have been lowered by Fed, over-regulation, over-taxation, socialism destroying the capital & causing it to go overseas; just putting tariffs is NOT going to make things right, it's another kind of socialism & only a way of raising prices & lowering living standards further. Until the aforementioned issues are gotten rid of, things are not going to improve.

Why did companies leave, they were payed to leave.

Another ridiculous conspiracy theory *facepalm* It's possible that SOME of the conspiracy theories are true but that does NOT mean that EVERYTIHNG is a conspiracy.

They left because it was unprofitable for them to run their businesses here & wage-laws, over-regulation & over-taxation, etc were the main reasons.

Stupid is what we have now, dog food that kills, drywall that makes people sick, baby toys that make them ill. Less choice, higher prices, smaller cans, less services....you are like opposite day.

None of that is going to improve by putting tariffs & thereby forcing people to pay higher prices & lower their living standard.

And it's not even funny that you're accusing me of the things that you are because if we look at your approach at the economy as a whole, YOU are the one who wants LESS CHOICES by blocking foreign products, YOU want HIGHER PRICES by blocking CHEAPER foreign products.

NAFTA and the FED killed this country...without jobs, people can't survive, they loose their homes, they can't buy cars, they can't buy food, they can't pay taxes...local government can no longer survive, state governments start to go bankrupt and federal government is doomed......if you think that this wasn't planned, you are still sleeping.

And if you think tariffs are going to fix all these problems then YOU are sleeping. Seriously, it's not even funny that you overlook the REAL problems & trumpet for your socialist policy of tariffs which is completely based on DOGMA & NOT on reason, logic & SOUND ECONOMICS.

 

[Jace]

..

 

[showpan]

So you want OTHERS to pay HIGHER PRICES & thereby have lower living standard just so that these 10 million could be better off? That's exactly what defines socialism, some people FORCED to suffer for others

Who says they need to be "doctors & lawyers"? They don't. They should earn according to what work they're capable of doing or improve/increase their skills in order to command higher wages, that's how a NON-communist/socialist free society works ie people earn according to their skill & talent.

You must really hate Americans. Just because you keep repeating your lies does not make it truth. It's more like 25 MILLION who have to suffer so that a handful of elitists can make more money from their shares. How can anyone earn what they are worth when the only manufacturing jobs are making Big Macs. It is clear what you think about other people.

Citigroup Plutonomy Report Part 1
Oct 16, 2005

- The World is dividing into two blocs - the Plutonomy and the rest.
The U.S., UK, and Canada are the key Plutonomies - economies powered by the wealthy. Continental Europe (ex-Italy) and Japan are in the egalitarian bloc.

- Equity risk premium embedded in "global imbalances" are unwarranted.
In plutonomies the rich absorb a disproportionate chunk of the economy and have a massive impact on reported aggregate numbers like savings rates, current account deficits, consumption levels, etc.

This imbalance in inequality expresses itself in the standard scary "global imbalances". We worry less.

- There is no "average consumer" in a Plutonomy.

Indeed, traditional thinking is likely to have issues with most of it. We will posit that:
the world is dividing into two blocs - the plutonomies, where economic growth is powered by and largely consumed by the wealthy few, and the rest.
Plutonomies have occurred before in sixteenth century Spain, in seventeenth century Holland, the Gilded Age and the Roaring Twenties in the U.S.

What are the common drivers of Plutonomy?

Disruptive technology-driven productivity gains,
creative financial innovation,
capitalist-friendly cooperative governments,
an international dimension of immigrants and
overseas conquests invigorating wealth creation,
the rule of law, and
patenting inventions.

Often these wealth waves involve great complexity, exploited best by the rich and educated of the time.

We project that the plutonomies (the U.S., UK, and Canada) will likely see even more income inequality, disproportionately feeding off a further rise in the profit share in their economies, capitalist-friendly governments, more technology-driven productivity, and globalization.

In a plutonomy there is no such animal as "the U.S. consumer" or "the UK consumer", or indeed the "Russian consumer".
There are rich consumers, few in number, but disproportionate in the gigantic slice of income and consumption they take. There are the rest, the "non-rich", the multitudinous many, but only accounting for surprisingly small bites of the national pie. i.e., focus on the "average" consumer are flawed from the start.

Citigroup Plutonomy Report Part 2
Mar 5 2006

RISKS -- WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
Our whole plutonomy thesis is based on the idea that the rich will keep getting richer. This thesis is not without its risks. For example, a policy error leading to asset deflation, would likely damage plutonomy. Furthermore, the rising wealth gap between the rich and poor will probably at some point lead to a political backlash. Whilst the rich are getting a greater share of the wealth, and the poor a lesser share, political enfrachisement remains as was -- one person, one vote (in the plutonomies). At some point it is likely that labor will fight back against the rising profit share of the rich and there will be a political backlash against the rising wealth of the rich. This could be felt through higher taxation on the rich (or indirectly though higher corporate taxes/regulation) or through trying to protect indigenous [home-grown] laborers, in a push-back on globalization -- either anti-mmigration, or protectionism. We don’t see this happening yet, though there are signs of rising political tensions. However we are keeping a close eye on developments.

 

[romacox]

For me the wake up call came in a serious of events as a business owner since 1984. I noticed we had to take many twists and turns in what we sold to succeed, but for many years thought it was normal "supply and demand" coupled with competition, at work.

Coming from a family of farmers and ranchers, I knew what had happened to them, and listened to their warnings.

I had no clue that what happened to the farmers and ranchers was now happening to the business world until a few years ago. We were installing windows and doors for several different companies like Sears, Home Depot, independent builders. Norandex, individuals ext.

1. One of the companies we installed for had an unusually good salesman...one of the few that did accurate measurements. He suddenly quit when the company sold out to an international corporation, and he said something that still haunts me. He said, "big changes are coming, and you installers had better stick together", but he said no more.

2. In Florida workman's comp costs a minimum of 20,000 per year for the construction industry (every State is different). However if one has no more than 3 owners on the payroll, they can hire up to 2 employees, and file for Workman's Comp Exemption.

Suddenly the companies we were installing for decreased the amount they were willing to pay, and insisted that we had to obtain workman's comp on everyone regardless of the law. It did not make much sense, but I still wasn't getting the whole picture. We did some digging, and found that by using a payroll service geared to the Construction industry, they could provide us affordable workman's comp ins. However eventually the corporations said we could no longer use the payroll service. Interestingly enough, even the Workman's comp office issued warnings against using payroll services in this manner, which made retaining our legal employees impossible..

3. The small builders were going out of business as bigger and bigger building corporations took over. The inspection codes that the small builders had to adhere to were still on the books, but now being ignored. Roofs (among many other things) were improperly done, and the City inspectors were passing them. If a City inspector passes a home, the builder and City are protected from a law suits. The inspections were suppose to protect the homeowner, but now protects the builder instead.

4. The walls and concrete slabs had always been properly prepared so our installations were accomplished in one trip. But suddenly walls were crooked, and the slab was not properly prepared. My husband and crew made 3 trips explaining to one slab layer what had to be corrected so that they could install the sliding glass door. Each time the man shook his head indicating he understood. On the last trip we discovered he spoke no English, and could not read blue prints.

5. One of the corporations we worked for offered us the following: if we hired two companies (ones they chose) under us as subcontractors, they would pay us $1000.00 per week per company, and the corporation would take care of payroll. We ran the usual background check, and discovered the two owners had DWIs, and could not legally drive, could not obtain liability insurance, or workman's comp. Due to the liability, we turned the deal down. We lost the work, but the two illegal employers and their employees were hired...I guess they had someone willing to accept the offer.

That is when I knew something was wrong, and began to do major research to figure out what was happening. I discovered that the very same game played on the farmers and ranchers are now being played on workers and small business owners. It is the same game the British Empire used to gain control of their various colonies, but now it is on a global scale.

6. Even more recently I have been researching old documents, and comparing them with newer ones. (old dictionaries with new ones, original Constitution with amended one, older text books with newer ones. ext). I am totally blown away with what I am discovering.

Our Founding Fathers and history was definitely not perfect, but it is no where near as bad as we have been taught. Many word definitions from the time of our Founding Fathers to now have a totally opposite definition making understanding of the Constitution all askew. All roads point to this having all started under Woodrow Wilson, and his creation of the Federal Reserve (Central Banks).

Having studied some sociology and psychology I know a big red flag is when people say words like all, always or never....like "all tariffs are bad." History shows some have been used for bad purposes, but some have accomplished good results as the Founding Fathers intended them to do.

P.S. other industries are reporting similarly. Here is one about the FAA licensing people to work on planes who cannot speak English http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-260490

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Having studied some sociology and psychology I know a big red flag is when people say words like all, always or never....like "all tariffs are bad." History shows some have been used for bad purposes, but some have accomplished good results as the Founding Fathers intended them to do.

How about "all rape is bad"? Or "all theft is bad"?

 

[romacox]

How about "all rape is bad"? Or "all theft is bad"?

I usually don't like to get involved in taking a whole article out of context by discussing one very small portion of it. But...

I said red flags...you do understand that term, right? Besides that, show me where history has ever indicated theft or rape was ever anything but bad.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

I usually don't like to get involved in taking a whole article out of context by discussing one very small portion of it. But...

I said red flags...you do understand that term, right? Besides that, show me where history has ever indicated theft or rape was ever anything but bad.

I agree. Theft and rape is always bad. So we agree that taxes are all bad.