Reason's Steve Chapman on keeping Birthright Citizenship

[Knightskye]

http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/28/citizenship-should-remain-a-bi/singlepage

He especially has me convinced with this part:

It would be bad for common-sense reasons as well. To start with, it would call into question the status of every new baby.
A report by the Immigration Policy Center pointed out that "all American parents would, going forward, have to prove the citizenship of their children through a cumbersome bureaucratic process."

This obligation is not something "we" are going to impose on "them." It would be a burden on all new parents, including those whose ancestors debarked at Plymouth Rock.

I know Rand Paul and George Will want to end it, but can they refute Chapman's arguments? Can you?

 

[Elwar]

Policy shouldn't be set based on the fear of a cumbersome process.

Why not get rid of legal immigration? There's a huge process you have to go through to get your citizenship. Might as well get rid of legal immigration too.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Invite him over to Ron Paul Forums to start a thread if he wants some intellectual masterbation and watch his position go down in flames.

 

[kkassam]

I haven't yet read the article, but how about this libertarian argument (and note, I am for open immigration).

No one has the right to vote for politicians or policies which would take rights away from another person, the fewer people to whom the franchise and welfare rights are extended, the better. So, no, immigrants and children of immigrants, while they should be able to live and work in the country in perpetuity (think of something like a lifelong guest worker status or Singapore's immigration policies) should never be given "citizenship".

 

[Michael Landon]

Well, if we get rid of birth right citizenship, then it looks like I would no longer be a US citizen. I was born in Wisconsin, both of my parents were born in Wisconsin, both of my grandparents were born in Wisconsin but all of my great grandparents were born outside of the United States and NONE of them became nationalized citizens of the US so, basically, they were illegal immigrants and thus their children, my grandparents, would be illegal as well.

Damn.

Any ideas as to which foreign country I should consider "returning" to? It's either Germany or Ireland.

- ML

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Well, if we get rid of birth right citizenship, then it looks like I would no longer be a US citizen. I was born in Wisconsin, both of my parents were born in Wisconsin, both of my grandparents were born in Wisconsin but all of my great grandparents were born outside of the United States and NONE of them became nationalized citizens of the US so, basically, they were illegal immigrants and thus their children, my grandparents, would be illegal as well.

Damn.

Any ideas as to which foreign country I should consider "returning" to? It's either Germany or Ireland.

- ML

Well, I am the last person who advocates this non sense of a republic and I don't know what I am talking about because I am unlicensed but let's go there.

Citizenship is about allegiance. In this case allegiance to the concept of a republic. Birth has absolutely nothing to do with allegiance. Citizenship is a privilege an individual voluntarily applies for because they are loyal. If you apply for citizenship you would receive something in return to illustrate evidence of citizenship.

Citizenship is not about law because everyone in the land is subject to local custom or law regardless of citizenship. Citizenship is not a requirement to live, work, or travel in any of the several states as these are natural rights. States can trespass uninvited aliens but none of them spend the money to do it. I reckon the citizens don't want to pay for it.

So what are privileges and immunities of citizenship? The privilege to vote, the privilege of interstate travel, the privilege to take up residency in any state, the immunity of invasion, the immunity of unlawful government, etc. However today virtually everything is a privilege.

Since government regulates citizenship it takes natural born individuals at their word provided they have evidence of domestic birth in the form of affidavits, a family bible entry, or in modern America a state issued birth certificate. Aliens are subject to additional regulation.

I call your post.... BS...

 

[daviddee]

...

 

[TheDriver]

his position go down in flames.

God forbid someone has a different position than a few loud mouths on this or any other forum.

 

[South Park Fan]

Since rights are natural and cannot be bestowed upon by a human entity, what exactly does citizenship give someone? Ideally, nobody ought to be given citizenship.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

God forbid someone has a different position than a few loud mouths on this or any other forum.

The author of this article wrote up several paragraphs and cited nothing to support his claim or even acknowledged the concept of citizenship prior to the unlawfully ratified 14th Amendment. Nor does the author even acknowledge the concept of homesteading which is the legalese justification for stealing from the Indians.

So when I say go down in flames, I mean historically go down in flames because his whole argument is bogus in the context of United States history. If you are going to write up a bunch of bullshit without any citation of facts. Be prepared for criticism from smart or in this case, smart ass loudmouths.

 

[TheDriver]

The author of this article wrote up several paragraphs and cited nothing to support his claim or even acknowledged the concept of citizenship prior to the unlawfully ratified 14th Amendment. Nor does the author even acknowledge the concept of homesteading which is the legalese justification for stealing from the Indians.

So when I say go down in flames, I mean historically go down in flames because his whole argument is bogus in the context of United States history. If you are going to write up a bunch of bullshit without any citation of facts. Be prepared for criticism from smart or in this case, smart ass loudmouths.

Your critique is probably warranted. I was implying on the issue in general. Many are divided on the illegal immigration issue.... no secret about that.

 

[slothman]

If birthright, i.e. 14th amend., is removed then how is citizenship determined?

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

http://www.flowofhistory.org/themes/movement_settlement/uspolicytimeline.php

http://www.aclu.org/voting-rights/voting-rights-act-timeline

The events in these time lines would make a good starting research outline.

 

[Knightskye]

You'd need to relax the rules to apply for a green card before you amended the Constitution to get rid of birthright citizenship.

And then you'd need an uncomplicated way for new parents to apply for citizenship for their children.

 

[cindy25]

this will never pass via constitutional amendment; 38 states=impossible.
NY, CA, WA, OR, HI, PA, MI, WI, NJ, MA, CT, RI, VT,

thats 13, there are more that would never pass this

 

[Xenophage]

Personally, I like birthright citizenship and I'm in favor of easy immigration laws. Totally disagree with Rand Paul on this issue.

Our problems with illegal immigration stem from two issues: 1, our economy stinks and 2, it takes forever to legally immigrate.

Get the economy back on track and there'll be enough jobs to go around. Fix the immigration process and people won't need to jump the fences (or run through the fields, whatever).

A legal immigrant is less likely to be involved in crime, because... well, an illegal immigrant is already a criminal. Get it? Legal immigrants have more to lose.

Anyway, people aren't going to stop coming over here just because you build more barricades. They'll find ways around, and it'll become increasingly more expensive to keep them out. Remove the incentives to be illegal!

On the other hand, local property owners have every right to defend their property and construct walls.

 

[Elwar]

I had an idea for funding government. Charge every immigrant $100,000 to become a citizen. Or $50,000 for each child of a citizen.

No citizen is ever required to pay any taxes in the US.

All other funding for the government would be a citizen exempt sales tax.

 

[teamrican1]

Anyway, people aren't going to stop coming over here just because you build more barricades. They'll find ways around, and it'll become increasingly more expensive to keep them out. Remove the incentives to be illegal!

On the other hand, local property owners have every right to defend their property and construct walls.

I think you are partially missing the point though. The point of the birthright citizenship reform is to ensure they don't get "citizenship", not necessarily to keep them out altogether. Citizenship is essentially voting rights, and since most Mexicans vote "badly" from our perspective, restricting their right to vote is a net positive for the liberty movement. Since most of us don't believe in democracy in the first place, we can afford to be cynical on this. Denying Mexican illegals the "right" to vote is not denying them any fundamental right from our perspective. The only reason the left supports birthright citizenship and extending the franchise to illegals is because they know it will increase their own power. Illegals can stay here and live and work for all I care. I just don't want them voting. We should bring back the literacy tests (enforced fairly this time of course) too, but that's another issue.

 

[Icymudpuppy]

I look forward to people regardless of place of birth having to show knowledge of our constitution and history of our republic prior to getting a vote.

 

[roho76]

I think if you were born here "You" have the right to stay here. Send there parents back, the ones who came here illegally and broke the law, with the option to take their kids with them or leave them here to prosper while they try to get in legally. I bet they take their kids with them. Breeding in our country does not guarantee you citizenship, especially if you committed a felony to do so.

And also to clarify my point. I am not advocating the state take their children from them. Just let them know that their children are natural citizens and they have that right if they want to leave them here, which will never happen. Problem solved.