Trump to terminate birthright citizenship

The count is very stale, denying reality is always stale.

I noted just a few minutes ago the profound alteration made by the removal of but a single letter from TheCount's moniker.

I will leave it as an exercise for y'all to dope out which one to drop.

ARF ARF ARF...
 
I noted just a few minutes ago the profound alteration made by the removal of but a single letter from TheCount's moniker.

I will leave it as an exercise for y'all to dope out which one to drop.

ARF ARF ARF...

 
How? The 14th amendment doesn't say anything about parents.

Circular Reasoning.

"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
They are subject to the jurisdiction thereof just by being born here? But not until they are actually birthed here. Or does it have something to do with who brought them into this world? So they are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof in mom's belly while she is here?
 
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I noted just a few minutes ago the profound alteration made by the removal of but a single letter from TheCount's moniker.

I will leave it as an exercise for y'all to dope out which one to drop.

ARF ARF ARF...

We should have a poll. :D
 
Circular Reasoning.

"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
They are subject to the jurisdiction thereof just by being born here?

No, it means if they're born in a hospital here and a birth certificate is issued in "their" name by that state. That BC and the name on it eventually becomes what the government has jurisdiction over, along with the SS# that identifies the name as "US Citizen". In the current commercial legal system, jurisdiction has nothing to do with the physical body, except by consent. It is jurisdiction over the "name" legal fiction that the physical body identifies as throughout the course of its life.

But not until they are actually birthed here. Or does it have something to do with who brought them into this world? So they are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof in mom's belly while she is here?

Again, it's not about jurisdiction over the physical body. It means jurisdiction over the legal fiction "name".
 
Nowhere in the ruling does he cite the attorney general's opinion that you quoted.
It just uses the same definition of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"



How? The 14th amendment doesn't say anything about parents.
It is part of the known intent and standard interpretation, if the status of the parents wasn't the issue then children born to ambassadors or invaders would be citizens and so would the children of "Indians not taxed".

AGAIN:

The Key Phrase: ‘Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof’

Howard and Trumbull see the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” as key in determining the limits of citizenship. In a response to Anton in the Washington Post, Elizabeth Wydra dismisses the importance of this phrase as a fixation of those who “deny the plain meaning of the citizenship clause.”

However, the meaning of this phrase was the central topic of debate precisely because it qualified who was to be considered a citizen in the citizenship clause. It is this phrase that made it clear that Indians were not included because even though they were born on American soil, they were not under the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States.

For Sen. Trumbull, “It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens.” Senator Johnson agreed, stating that he knows “of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born of parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States.”

Jurisdiction, says Sen. Howard, “ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States […], that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.” In other words, the citizenship clause does not cover those who are not under the United States’ full and complete jurisdiction.

Williams clarifies this point at the end of the debate. “In one sense,” he says, “all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States [they are still expected to obey the laws of the land and be punished for breaking them], but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense [they are still subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign government to which they owe allegiance].”


Two-thirds of the senators present for the vote agreed that no further clarification was needed to make sure the amendment excluded Indians. Only those under the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States are included in the clause. The fact that this amendment did not authorize birthright citizenship as it exists today is demonstrated further by the fact that Native Americans did not gain U.S. citizenship en masse when this amendment passed, in 1868, but 56 years later, with an act of Congress.

Regardless of whether we should have birthright citizenship today or not, it is clear that the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment did not intend individuals not subject to the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States to be included as citizens. It is hard to believe that they would have accepted our modern conception of “birthright citizenship,” in which any person, regardless of whether they are in the country legally, and regardless of their parents’ citizenship, can claim U.S. citizenship.

It is clear that individuals within the territory of the United States, under a tourist or student visa, or who have crossed the border illegally, are not under the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States, but are still under the jurisdiction, at least in part, of a foreign nation.
...
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/23/...t-citizenship/
 
AGAIN:

For Sen. Trumbull, “It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens.” Senator Johnson agreed, stating that he knows “of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born of parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States.”

Jurisdiction, says Sen. Howard, “ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States […], that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.” In other words, the citizenship clause does not cover those who are not under the United States’ full and complete jurisdiction.

Williams clarifies this point at the end of the debate. “In one sense,” he says, “all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States [they are still expected to obey the laws of the land and be punished for breaking them], but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense [they are still subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign government to which they owe allegiance].”
Your source doesn't cite any of these quotes because:
  • They're talking about Indians in every case.
  • Other senators disagreed with them during the debate.
  • The debate immediately before this debate was about children of foreigners, and yet the person that you're quoting ignores that part to instead quote the part about Indians. Let's find out why, shall we?

Here, have some context:

Sen. Trumball: "Does the Government of the United States pretend to take jurisdiction of murders and robberies and other crimes committed by one Indian upon another? Are they subject to our jurisdiction in any just sense? They are not subject to our jurisdiction. We do not exercise jurisdiction over them. It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.

Sen. Johnson: "The honorable member from Illinois... supposes and states very positively that the Indians are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. With due deference to my friend from Illinois, I think he is in error. They are within the territorial limits of the United States.

...

"when, therefore, the courts come to consider the meaning of this provision, that all persons born within the limits of the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens, and are called upon to decide whether Indians born within the United States, with whom we are now making treaties are citizens, I think that they will decide that they have become citizens by virtue of this amendment."

Sen. Hendricks: "If the Indian is bound to obey the law he is subject to the jurisdiction of the country;"

Sen. Doolittle: "The immediate question is whether the language which he uses, "all persons subject to the jurisdiction of the United States," includes these Indians. I maintain that it does;"

All those quotes, by the way, are from a debate about adding "Indians not taxed" to section 1 of the 14th amendment in order to prevent the amendment from applying to Indians. It did not pass.

Now, for the part about children of foreigners... you know, the debate that was only one single page away in the Congressional record...

Sen. Conness: "The proposition before us, I will say, Mr. President, relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. We have declared that by law; now it is proposed to incorporate the same provision in the fundamental instrument of the nation. I am in favor of doing so. I voted for the proposition that the children of all parentage whatever, born in California, should be regarded and treated as citizens of the United States, entitled to equal civil rights with other citizens of the United States.

...

"I beg my honorable friend from Pennsylvania to give himself no further trouble on account of the Chinese in California or on the Pacific coast. We are fully aware of the nature of that class of people and their influence among us, and feel entirely able to take care of them and to provide against any evils that may flow from their presence among us. We are entirely ready to accept the provision proposed in this constitutional amendment, that the children born here of Mongolian parents shall be declared by the Constitution of the United States to be entitled to civil rights and to equal protection before the law with others."

No one disagreed.
 
Your source doesn't cite any of these quotes because:
  • They're talking about Indians in every case.
  • Other senators disagreed with them during the debate.
  • The debate immediately before this debate was about children of foreigners, and yet the person that you're quoting ignores that part to instead quote the part about Indians. Let's find out why, shall we?

Here, have some context:



All those quotes, by the way, are from a debate about adding "Indians not taxed" to section 1 of the 14th amendment in order to prevent the amendment from applying to Indians. It did not pass.

Now, for the part about children of foreigners... you know, the debate that was only one single page away in the Congressional record...



No one disagreed.
The Attorney General and the court accepted the meaning of "under the jurisdiction thereof" espoused by the Senators cited but that doesn't matter because in all the cases contemplated the parents under discussion were here legally, the ruling in Wong Kim Ark does take a broader interpretation but even it can't help illegals because they are foreign invaders occupying our soil.

It can be debated whether it would take a Constitutional amendment to end birthright citizenship for the children of legal visitors and dual citizens but it doesn't take one to end it for illegals, nobody was even stupid enough to try to apply it to them until the 1960's.
 
All the debate on this topic, just goes to show that it should in fact to go the Supreme Court and have it debated and adjudicated. Then we can instead just argue whether the supreme court got it wrong. But it is obvious that the answer as of now is not crystal clear and laws should be so.
 
Interesting. Ron Paul supported repealing birthright citizenship, but I don’t recall the details of how he wanted to do it.

Best option would be a Constitutional Amendment. That’s a high hurdle, but worth pursuing.

It seems like the courts are usually involved in interpreting the law, and constantly changing interpretation by activist courts is a problem. When the court has a wrong interpretation of the intent, is it not up to lawmakers to clarify?

An executive order to change law is not constitutional at all.

That's why I have always preferred Originalists. Because what they do is apply the Founders' intent. It's not too hard to figure out when reading what they wrote at the time.
 
The Attorney General and the court accepted the meaning of "under the jurisdiction thereof" espoused by the Senators cited but that doesn't matter because in all the cases contemplated the parents under discussion were here legally, the ruling in Wong Kim Ark does take a broader interpretation but even it can't help illegals because they are foreign invaders occupying our soil.

It can be debated whether it would take a Constitutional amendment to end birthright citizenship for the children of legal visitors and dual citizens but it doesn't take one to end it for illegals, nobody was even stupid enough to try to apply it to them until the 1960's.

That is because the 1950's is when the UCC took over as supreme law of the land. Uniform Commercial Code, since adopted by every state. You and TheCount's argument is great and all but it has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on current legal procedures or definitions. Citing discussions from the 1800's? Ha. Try citing a case from the 1800's in a courtroom today and see how far that gets you. EVERYTHING changed in 1930 when the US Inc declared bankruptcy. The entire system has been changed since then and, most notably, the adoption of the UCC.
 
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