Rand Paul to Obama: "Prioritize" Passage of Trans-Pacific Partnership

Oh. I didn't click the link to see who actually wrote the article. Libertarians certainly shouldn't take the same position on free trade that Pat Buchanan takes. I understand the managed trade/sovereignty argument and the opposition to TPP based on that, but I've seen a lot of protectionist rhetoric here as well that runs counter to libertarianism.

Let me get this straight. You trust Barack Obama over Pat Buchannan? Because, like it or not, Obama is president and will be doing the negotiation on this crap. Goodness, don't be stupid! Don't blindly follow anyone! Peter Thiel, member of the Bilderberg group, gives "our cause" a bunch of money. All of a sudden being anti Bilderberg is a problem. (Never mind some years ago they supposedly didn't exist). And now Rand's maybe supporting a global managed trade agenda, something Ron has always been against, and we're supposed to support it because it's Rand?
 
I'm getting a little tired of the way this forum is ready to crucify Rand after every little soundbite. Dude's in campaign mode. He's gonna say some repulsive things. He even gonna DO some repulsive things.

Yeah. But what this? How is supporting another farce trade deal going to help him in the primaries when most Tea Party types are against NAFTA?
 
This stuff is really off topic.

:rolleyes:

I was merely responding to some poorly-thought-out assertions...sorry if it causes you any distress..

But, in reality, most/all political issues, SURELY including this one, revolve around 'money'...and i believe the reality is that VERY VERY VERY few, if any, Rand Paul supporters, or any other Republicrats here, have any honest understandings as to even the basics of 'their' stinking rotten money system...the rottenness/insanity of 'our' money system trumps/supercedes all issues 'economic'...it seems to me talking about these other relatively trivial economic issues when your unit of account has been debauched is really really stoooooooooooooooooooooooooopid...you 'flail at the leaves of the tree of evil, never striking the root$'...

Leaves feed roots. Kudzu is the hardest weed in the world to kill. You can kill it by digging up the roots (very hard) or you can kill it by cutting off it's food supply through covering up its leaves with black plastic (very easy). A word to the wise is sufficient.
 
I'm getting a little tired of the way this forum is ready to crucify Rand after every little soundbite. Dude's in campaign mode. He's gonna say some repulsive things. He even gonna DO some repulsive things.
This I know: Rand has been working in the liberty movement since I've been in diapers. I know he's the real deal because I've seen his videos when he was campaigning for Ron. I know he's the real deal because the Establishment came out HARD against him in his senate race. I know he's the real deal because he almost made the DOE cry over low flow toilets. I know he's the real deal because he came out swinging against some big names like Janet Yellen, David Barron, and John Brennan.
Rand Paul is the Christ of politics. He's doing the work that is so disgusting and filthy, that none of us will do it. It's going to take some lying, some cheating, and all around nastiness - while we sit behind our keyboards and act pious.
Rand Paul sold out the liberty movement? Christ on a cracker, Rand *IS* the liberty movement. He is our Trojan horse. If anybody wants to try the direct method talk to Ron Paul and see how that works out.


Whoa...hyperbole much? The "Christ" of politics? Next you'll be calling him The Messiah.
 
Whoa...hyperbole much? The "Christ" of politics? Next you'll be calling him The Messiah.

Yeah, I bit my tongue and didn't respond to that. I wanted to, though. Heh. Is very brave to say something like that among folks here given the pride that people have in the movement in whole and what they have done to advance in synergy. Ron, through his own voice, was very clear to say and understand that it was never about him, the man, and that it never would be. To assume otherwise, as was shown in that post with regard to Paul junior and the liberty movement being about him and him alone, is guaranteed fail and we would do well to acknowledge this.
 
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Whoa...hyperbole much? The "Christ" of politics? Next you'll be calling him The Messiah.

Yeah that's hyperbole but it's also true in the sense that Rand is as close to 'taking the next step', politically, as this movement is going to get for the foreseeable future. He is a game changer.
 
Whoa...hyperbole much? The "Christ" of politics? Next you'll be calling him The Messiah.

Jesus went to hell to pay for our sins (allegedly). Rand is going through hell to pay for our freedom. This is what I meant by the "Christ of Politics".
 
Jesus went to hell to pay for our sins (allegedly). Rand is going through hell to pay for our freedom. This is what I meant by the "Christ of Politics".

I wouldn't use that metaphor. We really don't know what he's going through, his motivations, his thoughts etc. He 's already made some compromises on freedom that he may not be able to take back. Unless you are somehow privy to information that we aren't. I think most people understand the game playing aspect, but comparing it in any way to the crucifixion of Christ is a bit over the top.
 
I wouldn't use that metaphor. We really don't know what he's going through, his motivations, his thoughts etc. He 's already made some compromises on freedom that he may not be able to take back. Unless you are somehow privy to information that we aren't. I think most people understand the game playing aspect, but comparing it in any way to the crucifixion of Christ is a bit over the top.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Carlybee again.

^This. I can't stand the hero worship aspect of the Obama cult where everything wrong he does is explained away by "the republicans made him do it" or some other lame excuse. I haven't yet asked any of my Obama supporting friends what they think about him sending troops back to Iraq. Anyway, back to Rand. I support the "Frodo" analogy. Frodo and Sam disguised themselves as orcs to sneak into Morodor and destroy the ring of power. Gandalf and the rest of the fellowship did a frontal assault to distract the enemy from Frodo's infiltration. Ron is Gandalf. Rand is Frodo. Jesse Benton is either Sam or Gollum, I'm not sure which.
 
I think I would argue that it makes the trade freer than it was before, because it lowers or eliminates tariffs, but it's obviously not the ideal concept of free trade that most of us understand. Free trade is simply trade between two countries with no taxes on imports and exports and no regulations. But the question is whether or not the lower tariffs contained in these trade agreements trump the regulations, including some bad regulations. I'm not exactly sure how I would vote on it and what conclusion I would come to if I were a member of the U.S Senate, but I would imagine that Rand is in favor of this agreement because he supports lowering tariffs between countries.

Ron Paul has spoken out against this agreement. Do you trust Ron or Rand more?

Rand Paul spoke out against this agreement in 2013. Do you trust Rand or Rand more?
 
I've contacted his office before when he's said something that I didn't agree with, when he gave an interview on CNN where he sounded pretty soft on the abortion issue. A day after I called, Rand's office put out a statement clarifying what Rand said in the CNN interview and his position on abortion.

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Good for you. I hope you will educate yourself enough on the TPP to understand that tacit support for it is just as bad as being soft on abortion. Seriously. The TPP is worse than high tariffs. It's giving up (more) national sovereignty.
 
I'm glad I'm not a purist. I don't think I could ever support a politician for any political office if I had to agree with them on every single issue in order to support them.

Is there any one issue that Rand could lose you on? If Rand said "I fully support a woman's right to choose and will never try to undermine Roe v. Wade" would you still support him? Oh I know you'd call his office, but would you still support him? Say if Rand said "While I support the 2nd amendment, we have to stop these mass shootings. Therefore I support mandatory GPS tracking for all newly manufactured guns." Would you still support him then? I get that this issue isn't as important to you as others. But if there isn't some issue that you're not willing to compromise on then you need to re-examine yourself.
 
So where are all of the comments about how Justin Amash is a sellout and can no longer be supported? He has the same position as Rand on this.

https://www.facebook.com/repjustinamash/posts/208102755927263

"Here's the roll call for H R 3078, United States-Colombia Trade Promotion Agreement Implementation Act. The bill approves the text of the trade agreement and makes corresponding changes to U.S. customs law. Like the other trade agreements in this vote series, the Colombia agreement reduces government interference in trade. The agreement does not move as quickly as I'd prefer, but it's a good first step. It will ensure that our producers have a level playing field when selling in Colombia while also giving Americans access to a greater variety of products and services. I voted yes. It passed 262-167."

I take it you don't understand the difference between a bilateral trade agreement and a multilateral trade agreement? One inevitably includes some new international governing body. The other most often does not.
 
If tariffs were the only means of supporting a limited central government, like the constitution states, and income and corprate and "user" taxes were eliminated, bet your ass I would be in favor of tariffs.

What I am not in favor of is ceding even more regulatory authority to foreign interests.

We already have enough "Regulation without Representation".

I agree. External taxation >>>>> internal taxation. I've made this argument before but some here have drunk too long on the fake free trade kool aid to get it. Imagine a world where internal taxes were zero. No IRS to hassle you about your income. No sales tax enforcers to hassle you about your sales. No interface with the gubbit revenoors until you were ready to import something, and then the guy from the other country is having to do the interfacing. Arguably a much freer world. But what we have is increasing internal taxes and regulations (internet sales taxes are on the horizon as is "tax by mile" highway taxes) coupled with the idea that we must "free" the rest of the world. I will say this. I know it's an unpopular opinion around here. But it's interesting that in the war between the states, the states with the slave labor force were the "free traders". Why are there no serious proposals about internal free trade?
 
To be fair, of course, if you actually look at the words Rand actually SAID, you can't really tell whether he supports the TPP or NOT. I generally like TNA, but this article and headline is pretty misleading.
 
To be fair, of course, if you actually look at the words Rand actually SAID, you can't really tell whether he supports the TPP or NOT. I generally like TNA, but this article and headline is pretty misleading.

That's pretty much the modus operandi around these parts, read an article and attribute what the writer said to Randal saying it.
 
Let me get this straight. You trust Barack Obama over Pat Buchannan? Because, like it or not, Obama is president and will be doing the negotiation on this crap. Goodness, don't be stupid! Don't blindly follow anyone! Peter Thiel, member of the Bilderberg group, gives "our cause" a bunch of money. All of a sudden being anti Bilderberg is a problem. (Never mind some years ago they supposedly didn't exist). And now Rand's maybe supporting a global managed trade agenda, something Ron has always been against, and we're supposed to support it because it's Rand?

Well, you support Paul Krugman over Rand Paul on this. As someone else pointed earlier, practically all of the hardcore "progressives" oppose the TPP.
 
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Well, you support Paul Krugman over Rand Paul on this. As someone else pointed earlier, practically all of the hardcore "progressives" oppose the TPP.

And you support Barack Obama and Rand Paul over Ron Paul and Rand Paul. I'll take Ron Paul and (last year's) Rand Paul. :rolleyes:
 
krugman on TPP for reference

The Opinion Pages | Op-Ed Columnist

No Big Deal

FEB. 27, 2014


Paul Krugman


Everyone knows that the Obama administration’s domestic economic agenda is stalled in the face of scorched-earth opposition from Republicans. And that’s a bad thing: The U.S. economy would be in much better shape if Obama administration proposals like the American Jobs Act had become law.

It’s less well known that the administration’s international economic agenda is also stalled, for very different reasons. In particular, the centerpiece of that agenda — the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership, or T.P.P. — doesn’t seem to be making much progress, thanks to a combination of negotiating difficulties abroad and bipartisan skepticism at home.

And you know what? That’s O.K. It’s far from clear that the T.P.P. is a good idea. It’s even less clear that it’s something on which President Obama should be spending political capital. I am in general a free trader, but I’ll be undismayed and even a bit relieved if the T.P.P. just fades away.

The first thing you need to know about trade deals in general is that they aren’t what they used to be. The glory days of trade negotiations — the days of deals like the Kennedy Round of the 1960s, which sharply reduced tariffs around the world — are long behind us.

Why? Basically, old-fashioned trade deals are a victim of their own success: there just isn’t much more protectionism to eliminate. Average U.S. tariff rates have fallen by two-thirds since 1960. The most recent report on American import restraints by the International Trade Commission puts their total cost at less than 0.01 percent of G.D.P.

Implicit protection of services — rules and regulations that have the effect of, say, blocking foreign competition in insurance — surely impose additional costs. But the fact remains that, these days, “trade agreements” are mainly about other things. What they’re really about, in particular, is property rights — things like the ability to enforce patents on drugs and copyrights on movies. And so it is with T.P.P.

There’s a lot of hype about T.P.P., from both supporters and opponents. Supporters like to talk about the fact that the countries at the negotiating table comprise around 40 percent of the world economy, which they imply means that the agreement would be hugely significant. But trade among these players is already fairly free, so the T.P.P. wouldn’t make that much difference.

Meanwhile, opponents portray the T.P.P. as a huge plot, suggesting that it would destroy national sovereignty and transfer all the power to corporations. This, too, is hugely overblown. Corporate interests would get somewhat more ability to seek legal recourse against government actions, but, no, the Obama administration isn’t secretly bargaining away democracy.

What the T.P.P. would do, however, is increase the ability of certain corporations to assert control over intellectual property. Again, think drug patents and movie rights.

Is this a good thing from a global point of view? Doubtful. The kind of property rights we’re talking about here can alternatively be described as legal monopolies. True, temporary monopolies are, in fact, how we reward new ideas; but arguing that we need even more monopolization is very dubious — and has nothing at all to do with classical arguments for free trade.

Now, the corporations benefiting from enhanced control over intellectual property would often be American. But this doesn’t mean that the T.P.P. is in our national interest. What’s good for Big Pharma is by no means always good for America.

In short, there isn’t a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view. Nor does there seem to be anything like a political consensus in favor, abroad or at home.

Abroad, the news from the latest meeting of negotiators sounds like what you usually hear when trade talks are going nowhere: assertions of forward movement but nothing substantive. At home, both Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader, and Nancy Pelosi, the top Democrat in the House, have come out against giving the president crucial “fast-track” authority, meaning that any agreement can receive a clean, up-or-down vote.

So what I wonder is why the president is pushing the T.P.P. at all. The economic case is weak, at best, and his own party doesn’t like it. Why waste time and political capital on this project?

My guess is that we’re looking at a combination of Beltway conventional wisdom — Very Serious People always support entitlement cuts and trade deals — and officials caught in a 1990s time warp, still living in the days when New Democrats tried to prove that they weren’t old-style liberals by going all in for globalization. Whatever the motivations, however, the push for T.P.P. seems almost weirdly out of touch with both economic and political reality.

So don’t cry for T.P.P. If the big trade deal comes to nothing, as seems likely, it will be, well, no big deal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/krugman-no-big-deal.html?_r=0




Krugman's essential point is that supporting TPP is pandering to Hollywood, Big-Pharma, etal. interests in global "legal monopolies" on intellectual property. It has very little to do with tariff reduction.

He also concedes to "Corporate interests would get somewhat more ability to seek legal recourse against government actions"; which is my primary concern. I do NOT believe Foreign Corporations should have ANY legal recourse in "International Law" against our government beyond diplomatic negotiations, or domestic court proceedings.
 
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