Rand Paul: feds may have unfairly 'targeted' dad's supporters

[margomaps]

See I reject that logic. You have to remember that Williams ties this production to wages idea to only lower level unskilled workers. If you were right and this was the case, I'd get my burger from McDonalds a lot faster. But it isn't the case. Because they aren't tied, the employer bases wages around demand.

I'll let someone else grapple with you on this one, because like I said, I haven't thought a whole lot about that issue.

Socialists may use Keynes but I am not a socialist. I do not like redistribution of wealth.

Awesome, at least we have something in common!

You are right in the fact that this is not black and white, but I think that Keynes theory can do more to further liberty than this gold, hard money economic style. I still have yet to get a response on how a gold economic system would work. What happens when i find a bunch of gold and drop it in the market? Or what happens when you limit the currency to what we have in gold and the richest people start hoarding money?

I'm also not an expert on monetary theory, so I'm not going to try talking about it until I'm better informed.

Let me turn the tables on you a little bit though: what is it about Keynes's philosophy that you find appealing/sensible? And further, do you see his approaches as being compatible with your view of liberty? Please elaborate so I can better understand your point of view.

 

[TrueFreedom]

I've been reading this thing called the constitution lately...

can someone here tell me which enumerated power of congress limits individuals right to trade with whatever they want within a particular state?

Which power of congress allows them to stop people from making "coins"? I seem to be unable to find that one either.

Just because our government does something, it doesn't make it right and doesn't make it legal.

I'm of the opinion that legal tender laws are on quite flimsy constitutional grounds. In fact, I'd say those grounds are non-existent...but there is probably some sorrupt supreme court case that says they are fine for bizzaro reasons.

This is what happens when we get into economic debates that may talk about the Federal Reserve and what laws are on the books and what Supreme Court cases have been passed. We get this "oh the laws are corrupt", or "well it's not really a law". I don't get it. It's always some kind of conspiracy. Congress has the power to coin money, article 1 section 8. Using the necessary and proper clause they can determine whichever way they want to do that, and by saying that you cannot make a coin of your own and call it currency is how they did it......the statue is in this thread. Don't always go back to some corrupt conspiracy argument, it only fuels this mainstream idea that Ron is a kook......

 

[Kalash]

Screw the whole thing.

All money is worthless.

I want to go on the golem standard!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork
-See the Currency Section.

(There are a LOT of spoilers if you click through to the "Making Money" book page.)



Making Money - Terry Pratchett

A good book.

Really.
Right on par with Ron Paul's The Ron Paul Money Book. (Kind of.)
There are a few things you should know from the previous books, but as a stand alone- it should work pretty well.

 

[torchbearer]

The federal reserve is printing counterfeit money, I don't see the FBI crashing their branches.

 

[bdmarti]

I still have yet to get a response on how a gold economic system would work. What happens when i find a bunch of gold and drop it in the market? Or what happens when you limit the currency to what we have in gold and the richest people start hoarding money?

As far as I can see, you have a problem with LEGAL TENDER laws and not with gold as money.

The problems you cite as being those of "gold" are actually those of legal tender being enforced upon a particular commodity money.

If any arbitrary commodity were used as money it would be subject to the same problems you cite as far as market floods and droughts.

I also think you overstate the problem though. It takes real work and energy to extract gold. You can't just type trillions of ounces of gold into existence. Sure you can mine gold...maybe even a lot of it...and if too much were flooding the market, people would be inclined to use something else as currency. In this way, the demand for gold would drop and the market would self regulate...that is unless LEGAL TENDER laws got in the way.

From the other direction, you also over state the problem. Sure, the rich people could "hoard" the gold, but then what would they buy goods and services with? The less gold they let flow through the markets, the more valuable the remaining gold would be and the higher prices would get. In addition, absent legal tender laws, the market would just shift to alternate currencies.

 

[TrueFreedom]

The federal reserve is printing counterfeit money, I don't see the FBI crashing their branches.

They not printing counterfeit money. You have no legal justification to back that up whatsoever. The Federal Reserve is printing legal US currency, they were created by the Congress, and the Congress can use the necessary and proper clause to allow the Federal Reserve to coin the money. Show legal backing or Supreme Court rulings for that statement or quit saying it because it marginalizes Ron and his supporters.....

 

[bdmarti]

... Congress has the power to coin money, article 1 section 8. Using the necessary and proper clause they can determine whichever way they want to do that, and by saying that you cannot make a coin of your own and call it currency is how they did it......the statue is in this thread. Don't always go back to some corrupt conspiracy argument, it only fuels this mainstream idea that Ron is a kook......

The power to coin money means exactly that: they can make coins. It doesn't mean they can LIMIT my powers to make coins and your saying so is strange. It's like saying that if I can bake a cake that you can't...I can ride a bike, so you can't...and so on.


If you'd like to educate, here is a portion of a helpful essay that will teach you a few things about the matter:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/holloway012003.html

Here you can actually read about how the supreme court ruled against the constitutionality of legal tender laws and then how president Grant stacked the court and all of the sudden legal tender was suddenly constitutional.

Even if you don't like the tone of agenda of the essay itself (and I do) it points you at all the proper case law and history to learn for yourself about the corruption and "conspiracies" behind our legal tender laws.

 

[TrueFreedom]

The power to coin money means exactly that: they can make coins. It doesn't mean they can LIMIT my powers to make coins and your saying so is strange. It's like saying that if I can bake a cake that you can't...I can ride a bike, so you can't...and so on.


If you'd like to educate, here is a portion of a helpful essay that will teach you a few things about the matter:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/holloway012003.html

Here you can actually read about how the supreme court ruled against the constitutionality of legal tender laws and then how president Grant stacked the court and all of the sudden legal tender was suddenly constitutional.

Even if you don't like the tone of agenda of the essay itself (and I do) it points you at all the proper case law and history to learn for yourself about the corruption and "conspiracies" behind our legal tender laws.

You could not be anymore wrong. The Congress does actually say I can bake a cake and you can't. Congress can coin money.....you can't. Why do I say that? Because the US Code says that. The US Code is a collection of all the laws in this country. And funny enough it has this one.....

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Which says Whoever.....makes......any coins of gold or silver or other metals....

It's illegal by law.

 

[TrueFreedom]

The power to coin money means exactly that: they can make coins. It doesn't mean they can LIMIT my powers to make coins and your saying so is strange. It's like saying that if I can bake a cake that you can't...I can ride a bike, so you can't...and so on.


If you'd like to educate, here is a portion of a helpful essay that will teach you a few things about the matter:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/holloway012003.html

Here you can actually read about how the supreme court ruled against the constitutionality of legal tender laws and then how president Grant stacked the court and all of the sudden legal tender was suddenly constitutional.

Even if you don't like the tone of agenda of the essay itself (and I do) it points you at all the proper case law and history to learn for yourself about the corruption and "conspiracies" behind our legal tender laws.

And again notice how we go back to this CONSPIRACY again. Well, it was legal until President Grant stacked the court.......come on guys, we are better than this...

 

[Trigonx]

Truefreedom, do you understand who and what the Federal Reserve is?

 

[TrueFreedom]

Truefreedom, do you understand who and what the Federal Reserve is?

Absolutely, they are a quasi governmental agency created by Congress that creates our money and is a haven for conspiracy theorists who believe that they are out to chip all of us and use their powers for one world global domination and other outlandish claims, it is also incorrectly said to be unconstitutional when it clearly is.

 

[DjLoTi]

No offense but who cares what Rand says... All I care about is Ron.

 

[Melissa]

Um not a government agency at all. They are a Private Bank I think you better read about them before saying much more.

 

[bdmarti]

You could not be anymore wrong...

It's illegal by law.

YOU sir, could not be more wrong.

The constitution is the SUPREME law of the land and no matter what congress says, if it is outside the scope of the constitution or against it then it isn't legal.

 

[allyinoh]

They not printing counterfeit money. You have no legal justification to back that up whatsoever. The Federal Reserve is printing legal US currency, they were created by the Congress, and the Congress can use the necessary and proper clause to allow the Federal Reserve to coin the money. Show legal backing or Supreme Court rulings for that statement or quit saying it because it marginalizes Ron and his supporters.....

This doesn't sound like something that would come out of the mouth of a RP supporter.

The Constitution grants Congress the power to coin money. It doesn't say, "Congress has the power to pass off their job to a group of private bankers..."

 

[Trigonx]

Absolutely, they are a quasi governmental agency created by Congress that creates our money and is a haven for conspiracy theorists who believe that they are out to chip all of us and use their powers for one world global domination and other outlandish claims, it is also incorrectly said to be unconstitutional when it clearly is.

With this answer ladies and gentlemen all hope is lost with TrueFreedom. This thread is dead to me.


p.s
(I just think the federal reserve is just stealing our money and making our economy unstable)

 

[acstichter]

In reading the search warrant against Liberty Dollar, I learned that they were minting 1 oz silver coins and selling them for a profit of at least $1.50 each to a distributor who turned around and sold them to the public for another nifty profit. However when silver prices approached the coin's retail cost, they bumped the value displayed on the coin to the next main denomination (say from $5 to $10 to $50) and decided to take a much higher profit on each coin.

So if someone bought 100 coins, each time they bartered one, they were throwing $5 or so out the window. Not sure what the appeal is to this. The math was quite startling.

Also, the investigation was a fair number of years ago. Like 2003 or something, so has nothing to do with Ron Paul.

 

[allyinoh]

Absolutely, they are a quasi governmental agency created by Congress that creates our money and is a haven for conspiracy theorists who believe that they are out to chip all of us and use their powers for one world global domination and other outlandish claims, it is also incorrectly said to be unconstitutional when it clearly is.

This guy is not for real... I say get rid of him.. =)

 

[bdmarti]

And again notice how we go back to this CONSPIRACY again. Well, it was legal until President Grant stacked the court.......come on guys, we are better than this...

It was NOT legal until Grant staked the court.

The only reason the word "conspiracy" is present is because YOU felt the need to bring it up.

I asked you to educate yourself about the HISTORY of the matter. It's not as if the position I and others take on the matter is unsound. It was the position of this country, and of the supreme court for decades.

To write off the possibility that power corrupted individuals within our government and the idea that they may have usurped more power than they were ever intended to have is extremely naive on your part.

 

[Trigonx]

It was NOT legal until Grant staked the court.

The only reason the word "conspiracy" is present is because YOU felt the need to bring it up.

I asked you to educate yourself about the HISTORY of the matter. It's not as if the position I and others take on the matter is unsound. It was the position of this country, and of the supreme court for decades.

To write off the possibility that power corrupted individuals within our government and the idea that they may have usurped more power than they were ever intended to have is extremely naive on your part.

If you read the link bdmarti gave you, you would realize that it is not a "conspiracy" but REALITY.