Rand Paul: feds may have unfairly 'targeted' dad's supporters

[TrueFreedom]

Uh, when I was a kid, we used to trade arcade tokens as money. "I'll give you twelve Funny Bone Dollars for your Lunchable." So since we used them to barter as with money (including in the arcade) does that make the Funny Bone Dollars counterfeit and illegal?

I don't pass my Funny Bone Dollars off as real money, but I can use them in place of USD in the arcade and amongst my friends. Same with Liberty Dollars. No one is saying that they are US currency. But they can be accepted in place of USD amongst friends (or say.. "friendly merchants.") As far as I can see, they're the same situation.



Similarly, there is a community in the Berkshire, MA area that uses their on currency, BerkShares, in place of US Dollars. Banks there even exchange BerkShares for US Notes and vice versa. If Liberty Dollars are illegal, how are Berkshares not?
http://www.berkshares.org/localcurrency.htm#whatare

Simple answer.

From the website you just gave, we got this......

BerkShares will not, and are not intended to, replace federal currency. Their use will help strengthen the regional economy, favoring locally owned enterprises, local manufacturing, and local jobs, and reducing the region's dependence on an unpredictable global economy.

From the Liberty Dollar website we get this........

The Liberty Dollar is the second-most popular and the fastest-growing currency in America! It's backed by gold and silver instead of being backed by national debt like our familiar US dollars. When you hold the Liberty Dollar, you own silver. When you give this REAL money to someone as payment, they now own silver.

There is the answer.....

 

[Trigonx]

I know a great deal about competing currency. And lets see, lets take this economic policy 1 step at a time....

1. Our economy is bad bc the Federal Reserve is printing too much money

2. Too much money equals inflation

3. Your plan.........leave the money we have now and then ADD MORE MONEY on the top in the form of competing currency. Do you not realize how bad of an economic policy this is? You think inflation sucks now.......

hahahahahaha is all i have to say to you. You are comparing gold and silver to the federal reserve note and saying that by adding gold and silver into the market inflation will increase....

 

[TrueFreedom]

I can't tell whether you're asking a question you want answered, or you're dead-set on arguing.

If it's the former, you should know that gold has a number of properties that make it quite valuable in a variety of manufacturing and scientific applications: it's highly malleable, it's ductile (low tendency to break under stress), it's highly conductive of electricity (pretty much only silver is superior in this regard), and it's highly reflective of visible and infared light. It's also highly resistant to corrosion, and it's non-toxic.

Well I do believe this has evolved into argument, but I am interested in getting this answered. And why you list some of it's qualities, like I said before, other than the fact that people like it because we are dumb people that like shiny things, and the fact that it makes jewelry, what is so great about it?

 

[Trigonx]

i'd rather have gold than this paper in my wallet that keeps losing value.

 

[McDermit]

Stupid people, being obsessed with shiny things for over 4000 years.

 

[TrueFreedom]

hahahahahaha is all i have to say to you. You are comparing gold and silver to the federal reserve note and saying that by adding gold and silver into the market inflation will increase....

Great analysis, you show your understanding of economics.

 

[ladyliberty]

Nobody is going after Elvis Presley commemorative coins or George Bush Commemorative coins

 

[TrueFreedom]

Nobody is going after Elvis Presley commemorative coins or george Bush Commemorative coins

No one is calling them real money or currency either......

 

[TrueFreedom]

I would suggest reading some John Maynard Keynes

 

[KingTheoden]

Doesn't matter. I'm a Ron supporter, but Rand is wrong here. The law plainly states you can't counterfeit even if the coin is of original design. It's not an issue of mistaking it for Washington....it's against the law.

Disney issues money and even uses dollars and virtually the same style of FRN paper. Anyone can make an alternative means of transacting business, certainly one can mint their own silver and gold rounds as long as they make it clear that they are not 'legal tender.'

 

[allyinoh]

What if a group of people wanted to use chocolate within their group as currency for services, merchandise, etc? Would that then mean that the chocolate is illegal?

It's not like people are going to Target to use the Liberty Dollar...

I don't understand why it is illegal if a group of people choose to use them with eachother for services or merchandise?

 

[margomaps]

I would suggest reading some John Maynard Keynes

OK, at least now I know where you're coming from. Keynesian economics is the model used by FDR and other socialists that favor government spending and fiddling in the economy. It's a key tool in the arsenal of central economic planners, and it has failed miserably throughout the 20th century by most objective measures.

Ron Paul, as I'm sure you know, follows the Austrian school, and cites Hayek as one of his heroes. Since Hayek is pretty much the polar opposite of Keyenes in his economic approach, I can now see why you disagree with Dr. Paul's economic views.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but Ron's economic views are nearly central to his philosophy and approach to liberty. You might like Ron for some of his views, but if you're a Keynesian, you're probably better off supporting someone like Kucinich or Nader.

 

[TrueFreedom]

OK, at least now I know where you're coming from. Keynesian economics is the model used by FDR and other socialists that favor government spending and fiddling in the economy. It's a key tool in the arsenal of central economic planners, and it has failed miserably throughout the 20th century by most objective measures.

Ron Paul, as I'm sure you know, follows the Austrian school, and cites Hayek as one of his heroes. Since Hayek is pretty much the polar opposite of Keyenes in his economic approach, I can now see why you disagree with Dr. Paul's economic views.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but Ron's economic views are nearly central to his philosophy and approach to liberty. You might like Ron for some of his views, but if you're a Keynesian, you're probably better off supporting someone like Kucinich or Nader.

I see what you are saying. And I have done a great deal of research on free market economics ranging from Mises to Walter Williams. And I think that the ideas they present are flawed. Williams for instance says minimum wage is bad because wages are tied to productivity and thus unskilled workers are discriminated against. But where does he get this idea that wages and productivity are tied? They aren't. It's poor policy. Now as far as men like Kucinich and Nader, no i would not support them, although I think Kucinich speaks a lot of truth. I do not support socialism.

 

[Melissa]

So I guess the logic is if you mow my lawn and I want to bake a cake for payment. I cant do that. well i can it is called bartering. You imply they are illegal because they say they are real money. Well they are to people that want to accept them. So if I want to give you a Euro I am not allowed. I think You are missing the whole point. I am an adult and can take and trade whatever I want it is only illegal if I take my currency to a store that refuses to take it and then I try to tell that store that they have to because it is "legal"

 

[margomaps]

I see what you are saying. And I have done a great deal of research on free market economics ranging from Mises to Walter Williams. And I think that the ideas they present are flawed. Williams for instance says minimum wage is bad because wages are tied to productivity and thus unskilled workers are discriminated against. But where does he get this idea that wages and productivity are tied? They aren't. It's poor policy. Now as far as men like Kucinich and Nader, no i would not support them, although I think Kucinich speaks a lot of truth. I do not support socialism.

Wages are certainly tied to productivity in the sense that employers are willing to pay more for more productive workers. Enforcing a minimum level artificially distorts the natural relationship between the worker's value and his compensation. But I'm not an expert in this area, so I can't really comment further.

I'm glad you don't support socialism. I think forced socialism is anathema to most aspects of liberty. Unfortunately the area I think socialism impinges most on liberty is in the economic realm. Forcibly taking wealth (the product of one's labor over time) from one person and giving it to another is a form of slavery. And again, unfortunately, Keynesian theory has been used almost exclusively to support socialist ideology.

I know this isn't simply a black and white issue -- but for all intents and purposes, to me Keynes's ideas work strongly against liberty. As a result I reject them.

 

[TrueFreedom]

So I guess the logic is if you mow my lawn and I want to bake a cake for payment. I cant do that. well i can it is called bartering. You imply they are illegal because they say they are real money. Well they are to people that want to accept them. So if I want to give you a Euro I am not allowed. I think You are missing the whole point. I am an adult and can take and trade whatever I want it is only illegal if I take my currency to a store that refuses to take it and then I try to tell that store that they have to because it is "legal"

No you are wrong. It is illegal if you break the law. This has nothing to do with bartering. Bartering is legal but for the most part ineffective. However, you cannot coin a money and try to pass it off as real money or currency if it is not approved by the US government, and that is the law. I feel as if you didn't read this thread....

 

[TrueFreedom]

Wages are certainly tied to productivity in the sense that employers are willing to pay more for more productive workers. Enforcing a minimum level artificially distorts the natural relationship between the worker's value and his compensation. But I'm not an expert in this area, so I can't really comment further.

I'm glad you don't support socialism. I think forced socialism is anathema to most aspects of liberty. Unfortunately the area I think socialism impinges most on liberty is in the economic realm. Forcibly taking wealth (the product of one's labor over time) from one person and giving it to another is a form of slavery. And again, unfortunately, Keynesian theory has been used almost exclusively to support socialist ideology.

I know this isn't simply a black and white issue -- but for all intents and purposes, to me Keynes's ideas work strongly against liberty. As a result I reject them.

See I reject that logic. You have to remember that Williams ties this production to wages idea to only lower level unskilled workers. If you were right and this was the case, I'd get my burger from McDonalds a lot faster. But it isn't the case. Because they aren't tied, the employer bases wages around demand.

Socialists may use Keynes but I am not a socialist. I do not like redistribution of wealth.

You are right in the fact that this is not black and white, but I think that Keynes theory can do more to further liberty than this gold, hard money economic style. I still have yet to get a response on how a gold economic system would work. What happens when i find a bunch of gold and drop it in the market? Or what happens when you limit the currency to what we have in gold and the richest people start hoarding money?

 

[Trigonx]

Wages are certainly tied to productivity in the sense that employers are willing to pay more for more productive workers. Enforcing a minimum level artificially distorts the natural relationship between the worker's value and his compensation. But I'm not an expert in this area, so I can't really comment further.

I'm glad you don't support socialism. I think forced socialism is anathema to most aspects of liberty. Unfortunately the area I think socialism impinges most on liberty is in the economic realm. Forcibly taking wealth (the product of one's labor over time) from one person and giving it to another is a form of slavery. And again, unfortunately, Keynesian theory has been used almost exclusively to support socialist ideology.

I know this isn't simply a black and white issue -- but for all intents and purposes, to me Keynes's ideas work strongly against liberty. As a result I reject them.

I agree with what you write, I was just looking up on Keynes to make sure what I knew about him was right. Keynes theory on unemployment is all about big government spending and control of the money supply.

 

[bdmarti]

I've been reading this thing called the constitution lately...

can someone here tell me which enumerated power of congress limits individuals right to trade with whatever they want within a particular state?

Which power of congress allows them to stop people from making "coins"? I seem to be unable to find that one either.

Just because our government does something, it doesn't make it right and doesn't make it legal.

I'm of the opinion that legal tender laws are on quite flimsy constitutional grounds. In fact, I'd say those grounds are non-existent...but there is probably some corrupt supreme court case that says they are fine for bizzaro reasons.

 

[Melissa]

I have read this you have not read what the Liberty dollar is they are not trying to pass it anywhere expect to people that are willing to take it. how in the world is that illegal. You do not seem to understand they are not trying to take it to the bank and pass it off as legal tender.