Push For Secession If Healthcare Passes?

[erowe1]

I don't see why state or local government can't or shouldn't provide public education.

Then you're definitely not a classical liberal.

 

[LDA]

I am in most ways, but I don't see what alternative there is. Without public education on some level, you're going to have droves of people not being educated because their parents simply don't care.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm against secession because it would involve discarding the constitution and trusting ignorant southerners to write a new one. No thanks, I think the old one would work just fine, if we would actually pay attention to it. As for liberal, sure, I consider myself a classic liberal. If you want to call me a modern day liberal, you have no idea what I believe.

It wouldn't necessarily require abandoning the consititution (which is rarely observed anyway). You assume Southerners to be ignorant, but the modern south is home to some of our great intellectuals (the Mises Institute is in Alabama). Sounds like you are too biased to make a sound decision on this.

I don't see why state or local government can't or shouldn't provide public education. What other option is there? I'm against the federal government having anything to do with education.

Do you see public education in the Constitution? It's not there. There is no fundamental basis for it. If people get together and fund their own schools, I'm okay with that. Just don't tax for it or require kids to attend.

I'm not going to teach you evolution, but it's a pretty basic idea. I already explained it in some detail. You agree that people pass on traits, right? I believe that the passing on of traits has been going on since life began. The difference is that you believe God poofed life into existence 6,000 years ago, and we all came from one man that God created and a woman created out of a human rib. I believe that we've been evolving for a lot longer than that.

But, again, I'm not going to teach you something that 7th grade science class should have. The fact that so many people deny such a basic thing as evolution means that our public education system really is a failure.

Again, it's all just what you BELIEVE-this is not science, it's philosophy. I don't mind that you believe it either, just don't pretend that it's objective fact when there's no clear consensus on it. (I took history of biology in college, and I can tell you that not even the pioneers of evolution agree on how it works)

Well, schooling is necessary to become educated. All of the technology and discoveries we have today are not because people read the bible, it's because people learned math and science, and used that in various professions.

Schooling isn't necessary to be educated. The necessary things for functioning in society like literacy and math can be learned for little cost at home or from a tutor. Even knowing these things don't guarantee "success" in life. (look at all the people with degrees who wind up unsuccessful) This is entirely dependent on the individual. If you've ever tried to get a job, you know they care more about your practical experience and competence than a degree. (not to mention government funded student loans have made degrees more abundant, and thus less valuable)

And, again, the constitution deals with the federal government. It says all other powers are delegated to the people or the states. Education could be one of those powers, if the state chooses. I agree with the evaluation that government intervention into education has made it worse, though.

So, then you agree with me. Very nice of you.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I am in most ways, but I don't see what alternative there is. Without public education on some level, you're going to have droves of people not being educated because their parents simply don't care.

Before government schools, parents and churches usually filled this role. And even if some people "slipped through the cracks", there's still jobs for them-such as mechanical things and so forth. Bringing back apprenticeship would also help cure this problem.

 

[kahless]

Since the state legislators in NY are just as bad if not worse than what we have at federal level I would rather see regional sucession rather than state sucession. Let the Communists in the 5 boroughs of NYC, Westchester and Long Island have their own socialist republic while the rest of us live in the free state of NY.

 

[Romulus]

no states dont need to do this.. we just nullify it under the 9th and 10th

 

[LDA]

It wouldn't necessarily require abandoning the consititution (which is rarely observed anyway). You assume Southerners to be ignorant, but the modern south is home to some of our great intellectuals (the Mises Institute is in Alabama). Sounds like you are too biased to make a sound decision on this.

Not all southerners are ignorant. For instance, I don't find myself to be ignorant on issues that matter to me, though I most certainly am on other issues. The vast majority of people I meet here are pretty ignorant on issues of politics/the economy, though. That's not just the south. The point is, I wouldn't trust most people in any part of the country to write a good constitution.

Do you see public education in the Constitution? It's not there. There is no fundamental basis for it. If people get together and fund their own schools, I'm okay with that. Just don't tax for it or require kids to attend.

You don't get it. The constitution provides guidelines for the Federal Government. All other powers are delegated to the states or the people. That's the 10th amendment.

Again, it's all just what you BELIEVE-this is not science, it's philosophy. I don't mind that you believe it either, just don't pretend that it's objective fact when there's no clear consensus on it. (I took history of biology in college, and I can tell you that not even the pioneers of evolution agree on how it works)

Yes, there is a clear consensus on it. Natural selection, man. It's not something that I just chose to believe, it's fundamental to understand that traits are passed down and that species evolve over time. We have fossils. We have timelines. We know that humans (homo sapiens) came from other forms of humans, because we have the fossils, and bones of ancient human ancestors are substantially different. We know that dinosaurs came millions of years before that, and that other forms of life also existed. To deny evolution is to essentially say "all of that evidence was planted by the devil, or God was trying to trick us."

Schooling isn't necessary to be educated. The necessary things for functioning in society like literacy and math can be learned for little cost at home or from a tutor. Even knowing these things don't guarantee "success" in life. (look at all the people with degrees who wind up unsuccessful) This is entirely dependent on the individual. If you've ever tried to get a job, you know they care more about your practical experience and competence than a degree. (not to mention government funded student loans have made degrees more abundant, and thus less valuable)

Education is crucial. It's not just basic math and science that you need. You need advanced math and science to move into professions that generate new technology. You need calculus and physics to be an engineer, for instance. Many people will not effectively use their education, but almost everyone needs it. Most parents cannot effectively teach things like calculus, chemistry, statistics, history, or even english. Especially since parents have to go to work. Schools are far more efficient in providing an education, and while we have many terrible schools in this country, we have many good ones.

Before government schools, parents and churches usually filled this role. And even if some people "slipped through the cracks", there's still jobs for them-such as mechanical things and so forth. Bringing back apprenticeship would also help cure this problem.

If parents and churches are responsible for education, we can guarantee that the United States will be a joke of a country for the next century. It's already shaping up that way, anyway.

 

[tremendoustie]

I am in most ways, but I don't see what alternative there is. Without public education on some level, you're going to have droves of people not being educated because their parents simply don't care.

Education was far better in this country before public schools. Good education requires competition, accountability, and a desire and willingness to learn, and it can be provided very cheaply -- far more cheaply than public schools.

Here's a recent book, for example, examining how millions of the worlds poorest are getting better educations privately, for a few dollars a month, than the public schools can provide.

http://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Tree-Personal-Educating-Themselves/dp/1933995920

 

[RonPaulFanInGA]

especially when that religion is based off of ancient desert scribblings that aren't relevant to most people.

Really? Last I checked the majority of Americans are still Christians.

 

[LDA]

Yeah, I guess I should have said "many people" rather than "most." Religious indoctrination is a terrible thing.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

If parents and churches are responsible for education, we can guarantee that the United States will be a joke of a country for the next century. It's already shaping up that way, anyway.

facepalm

Not all southerners are ignorant. For instance, I don't find myself to be ignorant on issues that matter to me, though I most certainly am on other issues. The vast majority of people I meet here are pretty ignorant on issues of politics/the economy, though. That's not just the south. The point is, I wouldn't trust most people in any part of the country to write a good constitution.

And you want to perpetuate the system that gave us such an ignorant society? facepalm.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Why not just vote out the Senators and congresspeople who voted for the health care bill?

If you can't get that done, you haven't a ghost of a chance of getting secession done. And vote out the president if he signs the bill.

If you think about it, seceeding from a government you just elected is pretty stupid.

 

[LDA]

And you want to perpetuate the system that gave us such an ignorant society? facepalm.

The problem came about when we started ignoring the constitution. It's viewed as more of an obstruction than anything else, these days.

 

[Akus]

Why not just vote out the Senators and congresspeople who voted for the health care bill?

If you can't get that done, you haven't a ghost of a chance of getting secession done. And vote out the president if he signs the bill.

If you think about it, seceeding from a government you just elected is pretty stupid.

my freaking point exactly...

 

[erowe1]

Why not just vote out the Senators and congresspeople who voted for the health care bill?

If you can't get that done, you haven't a ghost of a chance of getting secession done. And vote out the president if he signs the bill.

If you think about it, seceeding from a government you just elected is pretty stupid.

The implication that having democratic elections implies that we consent to be subjugated by the government is a lot more stupid than that.

 

[kahless]

Why not just vote out the Senators and congresspeople who voted for the health care bill?

If you can't get that done, you haven't a ghost of a chance of getting secession done. And vote out the president if he signs the bill.

If you think about it, seceeding from a government you just elected is pretty stupid.

You cannot vote them out since the political system and broadcast media is rigged in favor of the established parties which shuts out opposition.

 

[Mini-Me]

You cannot vote them out since the political system and broadcast media is rigged in favor of the established parties which shuts out opposition.

Exactly...this, along with the plurality voting system, has ensured that you cannot vote out your own Congressman or Senator without simultaneously voting in his/her equally bad counterpoint.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Why is breaking with the federal government stupid? The majority here believe it's a good idea. Enlighten us.

Yeah good luck with that. See how big your army is...

 

[literatim]

The people can more easily control the local State congressmen than they can US congressman. It would be easier to push for a State to secede than it would be to ever to get the federal government to act only within its constitutional authority.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

The implication that having democratic elections implies that we consent to be subjugated by the government is a lot more stupid than that.

How should the secession be done; by voting or by decree?