Protestants and a Churchless Tradition: “Sola” vs. “Solo” Scriptura

[Sola_Fide]

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them”.

Are saying that this does not teach that the ones who have died go through a purification?

 

[TER]

But notice that even in the case of Timothy, even in the words you bolded, Chrysostom doesn't claim that the gift Timothy received by the laying on of hands was the Holy Spirit, but rather a grace of the Spirit for certain ministries.

Wow. I don't even know what to say...

 

[TER]

Are saying that this does not teach that the ones who have died go through a purification?

Sola, if you wish, please start a thread on purgatory or soul sleep or whatever else you want to argue about. Please stop derailing this thread. Thanks!

 

[Sola_Fide]

Also, the Bible condemns praying for the dead:

Leviticus 19:31

“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

 

[TER]

Also, the Bible condemns praying for the dead:

Tell that to St. Paul.

Now please, stop derailing this thread. Thanks for the second time!

 

[Sola_Fide]

Tell that to St. Paul.

Now please, stop derailing this thread. Thanks for the second time!

Paul did not pray for the dead. There is no evidence that Onesiphorus was dead.

 

[erowe1]

And let us see what else this Church Father (regarded a Saint by every Church which can trace itself back to the Apostles) had to say about Acts 6:6...

"There arose a murmuring," etc. to—"And a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.— There arose murmuring against the Hebrews"— for that description of people seemed to be more honorable— "because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration." Acts 6:1-7

So then there was a daily ministration for the widows. And observe how he calls it a "ministration" (διακονία), and not directly alms: extolling by this at once the doers, and those to whom it was done.

"Were neglected." This did not arise from malice, but perhaps from the carelessness of the multitude. And therefore he brought it forward openly, for this was no small evil. Observe, how even in the beginning the evils came not only from without, but also from within. For you must not look to this only, that it was set to rights, but observe that it was a great evil that it existed.

"Then the twelve," etc. Acts 6:2 Do you observe how outward concerns succeed to inward? They do not act at their own discretion, but plead for themselves to the congregation. So ought it to be done now. "It is not reason," says he, "that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables." First he puts to them the unreasonableness of the thing; that it is not possible for both things to be done with the same attention: just as when they were about to ordain Matthias, they first show the necessity of the thing, that one was deficient, and there must needs be twelve. And so here they showed the necessity; and they did it not sooner, but waited till the murmuring arose; nor, on the other hand, did they suffer this to spread far. And, lo! They leave the decision to them: those who pleased all, those who of all were honestly reputed, them they present: not now twelve, but "seven, full of the Spirit and of wisdom: well reported of" for their conversation. Acts 6:3

Now when Matthias was to be presented, it was said, "Therefore must one of these men which have companied with us all the time" Acts 1:21: but not so here: for the case was not alike. And they do not now put it to the lot; they might indeed themselves have made the election, as moved by the Spirit: but nevertheless, they desire the testimony of the people. The fixing the number, and the ordaining them, and for this kind of business, rested with them: but the choice of the men they make over to the people, that they might not seem to act from favor: just as God also leaves it to Moses to choose as elders those whom he knew. Numbers 11:16

"And of wisdom." For indeed there needs much wisdom in such ministrations. For think not, because he has not the word committed unto him, that such an one has no need of wisdom: he does need it, and much too. "But we," says he, "will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word." Acts 6:4

Again they plead for themselves, beginning and ending with this. "Will give ourselves continually," he says. For so it behooved, not just to do the mere acts, or in any chance way, but to be continually doing them. "And the saying," we are told, "pleased the whole multitude." (v. 5, 6.) This too was worthy of their wisdom. All approved of what was said so sensible was it.

"And they chose," it says (again it is the people (αὐτοί) that choose,) "Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: whom they set before the Apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them."

They separated them from the multitude, and it is the people (αὐτοί) that draw them, not the Apostles that lead them. Observe how he avoids all that is superfluous: he does not tell in what way it was done, but that they were ordained (ἐ χειροτονήθησαν) with prayer: for this is the meaning of χειροτονία, (i.e. "putting forth the hand,") or ordination: the hand of the man is laid upon (the person,) but the whole work is of God, and it is His hand which touches the head of the one ordained, if he be duly ordained.​

Notice that he didn't interpret that laying on of hands as transferring the Holy Spirit.

 

[TER]

Notice that he didn't interpret that laying on of hands as transferring the Holy Spirit.

 

[TER]

From an earlier source, the Apostolic Constitutions

THAT THE DEACON MUST NOT MAKE ANY DISTRIBUTIONS WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE BISHOP, BECAUSE THAT WILL TURN TO THE REPROACH OF THE BISHOP.

XXXII. If therefore, O deacon, thou knowest any one to be in distress, put the bishop in mind of him, and so give to him; but do nothing in a clandestine way, so as may tend to his reproach, lest thou raise a murmur against him; for the murmur will not be against him, but against the Lord God: and the deacon, with the rest, will hear what Aaron and Miriam heard, when they spake against Moses: "How is it that ye were not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" And again, Moses says to those who rose up against him: "Your murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord our God."

For if he that calls one of the laity Raka, or fool, shall not be unpunished, as doing injury to the name of Christ, how dare any man speak against his bishop, by whom the Lord gave the Holy Spirit among you upon the laying on of his hands, by whom ye have learned the sacred doctrines, and have known God, and have believed in Christ, by whom ye were known of God, by whom ye were sealed with the oil of gladness and the ointment of understanding, by whom ye were declared to be the children of light, by whom the Lord in your illumination testified by the imposition of the bishop's hands, and sent out His sacred voice upon every one of you, saying, "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee?" By thy bishop, O man, God adopts thee for His child. Acknowledge, O son, that right hand which was a mother to thee. Love him who, after God, is become a father to thee, and honour him.

 

[TER]

Some more from the Apostolic Constitutions

AFTER WHAT MANNER WE OUGHT TO RECEIVE A PENITENT; HOW WE OUGHT TO DEAL WITH OFFENDERS, AND WHEN THEY ARE TO BE CUT OFF FROM THE CHURCH.

XLI. But if any one returns, and shows forth the fruit of repentance, then do ye receive him to prayer, as the lost son, the prodigal, who had consumed his father's substance with harlots, who fed swine, and desired to be fed with husks, and could not obtain it. This son, when he repented, and returned to his father, and said, "I have sinned against Heaven, and before thee, and am no more worthy to be called thy son;" the father, full of affection to his child, received him with music, and restored him his old robe, and ring, and shoes, and slew the fatted calf, and made merry with his friends. Do thou therefore, O bishop, act in the same manner. And as thou receivest an heathen after thou hast instructed and baptized him, so do thou let all join in prayers for this man, and restore him by imposition of hands to his ancient place among the flock, as one purified by repentance; and that imposition of hands shall be to him instead of baptism: for by the laying on of our hands the Holy Ghost was given to believers.

 

[TER]

And some more...

AFTER WHAT MANNER FALSE ACCUSERS ARE TO BE PUNISHED.

XLIII. Thou shalt therefore cast him out of the congregation as a murderer of his brother. Some time afterwards, if he says that he repents, mortify him with fastings, and afterwards ye shall lay your hands upon him and receive him, but still securing him, that he does not disturb anybody a second time. But if, when he is admitted again, he be alike troublesome, and will not cease to disturb and to quarrel with his brother, spying faults out of a contentious spirit, cast him out as a pernicious person, that he may not lay waste the Church of God. For such a one is the raiser of disturbances in cities; for he, though he be within, does not become the Church, but is a superfluous and vain member, casting a blot, as far as in him lies, on the body of Christ.

 

[erowe1]

Some more from the Apostolic Constitutions

AFTER WHAT MANNER WE OUGHT TO RECEIVE A PENITENT; HOW WE OUGHT TO DEAL WITH OFFENDERS, AND WHEN THEY ARE TO BE CUT OFF FROM THE CHURCH.

XLI. But if any one returns, and shows forth the fruit of repentance, then do ye receive him to prayer, as the lost son, the prodigal, who had consumed his father's substance with harlots, who fed swine, and desired to be fed with husks, and could not obtain it. This son, when he repented, and returned to his father, and said, "I have sinned against Heaven, and before thee, and am no more worthy to be called thy son;" the father, full of affection to his child, received him with music, and restored him his old robe, and ring, and shoes, and slew the fatted calf, and made merry with his friends. Do thou therefore, O bishop, act in the same manner. And as thou receivest an heathen after thou hast instructed and baptized him, so do thou let all join in prayers for this man, and restore him by imposition of hands to his ancient place among the flock, as one purified by repentance; and that imposition of hands shall be to him instead of baptism: for by the laying on of our hands the Holy Ghost was given to believers.

Notice that that is not talking about ordaining anyone to any kind of office within the Church.

 

[erowe1]

And some more...

AFTER WHAT MANNER FALSE ACCUSERS ARE TO BE PUNISHED.

XLIII. Thou shalt therefore cast him out of the congregation as a murderer of his brother. Some time afterwards, if he says that he repents, mortify him with fastings, and afterwards ye shall lay your hands upon him and receive him, but still securing him, that he does not disturb anybody a second time. But if, when he is admitted again, he be alike troublesome, and will not cease to disturb and to quarrel with his brother, spying faults out of a contentious spirit, cast him out as a pernicious person, that he may not lay waste the Church of God. For such a one is the raiser of disturbances in cities; for he, though he be within, does not become the Church, but is a superfluous and vain member, casting a blot, as far as in him lies, on the body of Christ.

Notice that that is not about ordination for any office in the Church and that it also doesn't mention and transference of the Holy Spirit.

 

[erowe1]

From an earlier source, the Apostolic Constitutions

Earlier than what?

The Apostolic Constitutions, despite the name, are not very early.

 

[TER]

Notice that that is not talking about ordaining anyone to any kind of office within the Church.

Yes, I understand that the laying of the hands served more than one purpose. In fact, when I was married it happened, when I go to confession it happens. I am simply trying to explain to you that in the ordaining of the clergy, it happens through the rite of ordination requiring the laying of the hands. You, still, somehow, are not convinced and honestly no matter how many writings I can find from the limited ones we have in the first centuries you will not be convinced!

I mean, St. Ignatius who was the Bishop of Antioch while Apostles still lived speaks about the three ordained orders of clergy, namely the Bishop, the Priest, and the Deacon. But that is too late for you! And plus, his writings are not part of the Canon! That only shows you to have made an idol of the Scriptures (or better yet, your mind's interpretation of the Scriptures) and know little about the Church's goal with regards to the Canon of the Holy Bible.

 

[TER]

Notice that that is not about ordination for any office in the Church and that it also doesn't mention and transference of the Holy Spirit.

Notice how you ignore this verse above:

From an earlier source, the Apostolic Constitutions

THAT THE DEACON MUST NOT MAKE ANY DISTRIBUTIONS WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE BISHOP, BECAUSE THAT WILL TURN TO THE REPROACH OF THE BISHOP.

XXXII. If therefore, O deacon, thou knowest any one to be in distress, put the bishop in mind of him, and so give to him; but do nothing in a clandestine way, so as may tend to his reproach, lest thou raise a murmur against him; for the murmur will not be against him, but against the Lord God: and the deacon, with the rest, will hear what Aaron and Miriam heard, when they spake against Moses: "How is it that ye were not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" And again, Moses says to those who rose up against him: "Your murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord our God."

For if he that calls one of the laity Raka, or fool, shall not be unpunished, as doing injury to the name of Christ, how dare any man speak against his bishop, by whom the Lord gave the Holy Spirit among you upon the laying on of his hands, by whom ye have learned the sacred doctrines, and have known God, and have believed in Christ, by whom ye were known of God, by whom ye were sealed with the oil of gladness and the ointment of understanding, by whom ye were declared to be the children of light, by whom the Lord in your illumination testified by the imposition of the bishop's hands, and sent out His sacred voice upon every one of you, saying, "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee?" By thy bishop, O man, God adopts thee for His child. Acknowledge, O son, that right hand which was a mother to thee. Love him who, after God, is become a father to thee, and honour him.


Can't wait to see some more of your mental gymnastics!!

 

[TER]

Earlier than what?

The Apostolic Constitutions, despite the name, are not very early.

Perhaps to you!

What is definitely early, however, are many if not most of the traditions they are referencing or building upon.

But because you suffer from Sola Scripturianism (a deadly form of dementia), you reject it because it wasn't written by St. Luke in the Book of Acts.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Notice how you ignore this verse above:

From an earlier source, the Apostolic Constitutions

THAT THE DEACON MUST NOT MAKE ANY DISTRIBUTIONS WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE BISHOP, BECAUSE THAT WILL TURN TO THE REPROACH OF THE BISHOP.

XXXII. If therefore, O deacon, thou knowest any one to be in distress, put the bishop in mind of him, and so give to him; but do nothing in a clandestine way, so as may tend to his reproach, lest thou raise a murmur against him; for the murmur will not be against him, but against the Lord God: and the deacon, with the rest, will hear what Aaron and Miriam heard, when they spake against Moses: "How is it that ye were not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" And again, Moses says to those who rose up against him: "Your murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord our God."

For if he that calls one of the laity Raka, or fool, shall not be unpunished, as doing injury to the name of Christ, how dare any man speak against his bishop, by whom the Lord gave the Holy Spirit among you upon the laying on of his hands, by whom ye have learned the sacred doctrines, and have known God, and have believed in Christ, by whom ye were known of God, by whom ye were sealed with the oil of gladness and the ointment of understanding, by whom ye were declared to be the children of light, by whom the Lord in your illumination testified by the imposition of the bishop's hands, and sent out His sacred voice upon every one of you, saying, "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee?" By thy bishop, O man, God adopts thee for His child. Acknowledge, O son, that right hand which was a mother to thee. Love him who, after God, is become a father to thee, and honour him.


Can't wait to see some more of your mental gymnastics!!

Here's my gymnastics: None of this garbage is mentioned in the Scriptures, so it means less than nothing. In my humble opinion, it shows how the devil is so intent upon bringing the traditions of man into the religion of the world, and tearing men away from the pristine words of God.

 

[TER]

Here's my gymnastics: None of this garbage is mentioned in the Scriptures, so it means less than nothing. In my humble opinion, it shows how the devil is so intent upon bringing the traditions of man into the religion of the world, and tearing men away from the pristine words of God.

Yes, I understand Sola. You are a Solo Scripturist. I get it. I'm am speaking with erowe now who claims to not be one (even though he is one). So please leave and go start a thread on how 'world doesn't mean world' or 'all doesn't mean all' if you haven't done so yet this week.

 

[TER]

This one is from the year 215 AD

The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus

1 We have set forth as was necessary that part of the discourse which relates to the
spiritual gifts, all that God, right from the beginning, granted to people according to his will,
bringing back to himself this image which had gone astray.

2Now, driven by love towards all the saints, we have arrived at the essence of the tradition
which is proper for the Churches. 3This is so that those who are well informed may keep the
tradition which has lasted until now, according to the explanation we give of it, and so that
others by taking note of it may be strengthened 4(against the fall or error which has recently
occurred because of ignorance and ignorant people), 5with the Holy Spirit conferring perfect
grace on those who have a correct faith, and so that they will know that those who are at the
head of the Church must teach and guard all these things.

2 He who is ordained as a bishop, being chosen by all the people, must be irreproachable.
2When his name is announced and approved, the people will gather on the Lord's day with the
council of elders and the bishops who are present. 3With the assent of all, the bishops will place
their hands upon him, with the council of elders standing by, quietly. 4Everyone will keep silent,
praying in their hearts for the descent of the Spirit. 5After this, one of the bishops present, at the
request of all, shall lay his hand upon him who is being ordained bishop, and pray, saying,


3 God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Father of mercies and God of all consolation,
you who live in the highest, but regard the lowest,
you who know all things before they are,
2you who gave the rules of the Church through the word of your grace,
who predestined from the beginning the race of the righteous through Abraham,
who instituted princes and priests,
and did not leave your sanctuary without a minister;
who from the beginning of the world has been pleased
to be glorified by those whom you have chosen,
3pour out upon him the power which is from you, the princely Spirit,
which you gave to your beloved Son Jesus Christ,
which he gave to your holy apostles,
who founded the Church in every place as your sanctuary,
for the glory and endless praise of your name.

4Grant, Father who knows the heart,
to your servant whom you chose for the episcopate, that he will feed your holy flock,
that he will wear your high priesthood without reproach,
serving night and day, incessantly making your face favorable,
and offering the gifts of your holy church;
5in the spirit of high priesthood having the power to forgive sins according to your command;
to assign lots according to your command;
to loose any bond according to the authority which you gave to the apostles;
to please you in mildness and a pure heart, offering to you a sweet scent,
6through your son Jesus Christ,
through whom to you be glory, power, and honor,
Father and Son,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the Holy Church,
now and throughout the ages of the ages.
Amen.