Politico: Occupy Wall Street crashes Ron Paul event

[Brett85]

Shoulda coulda woulda. Meanwhile, those who engage in legal but unethical behavior are assholes and people should divest from them.

Sure, people can divest from these companies if they want. I'm simply trying to point out that I don't want the government to punish these greedy, evil corporations.

 

[kylejack]

If the entire point of "business" is to maximize profits, then it is the smart businessman who is first in line. After all, in most industries the marketplace is extremely competitive. Any avenue that could provide a slight competitive edge needs to be explored. If the politicians in D.C. actually followed the Constitution, and did nothing more than provide the proper conditions for a free market to flourish, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You're arguing that James Taggart is a better person than Dagny Taggart. You're arguing that it's ethical to act unethically, because violating the rights of people is acceptable if it means making money. You're arguing that the moochers and the looters are the good guys.

 

[Brett85]

If the entire point of "business" is to maximize profits, then it is the smart businessman who is first in line. After all, in most industries the marketplace is extremely competitive. Any avenue that could provide a slight competitive edge needs to be explored. If the politicians in D.C. actually followed the Constitution, and did nothing more than provide the proper conditions for a free market to flourish, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

+Rep. Exactly right. It's the fault of the government, not companies that are simply being smart.

 

[kylejack]

Sure, people can divest from these companies if they want. I'm simply trying to point out that I don't want the government to punish these greedy, evil corporations.

Why? Many of them have broken laws capriciously, especially big banks like Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs was selling products to investors that they knew were shit. It was clear fraud, but when you're big enough and important enough you don't get prosecuted.

 

[dannno]

Well, I've made it very clear that I'm opposed to government subsidies for corporations, bailouts, and other forms of government favoratism. I think we agree on that. So what exactly are we arguing about?

You seem to think that businesses instigating corruption that isn't ever caught and leads to benefits is moral whereas I think it is immoral.

I'm not saying the farmer who takes the subsidy is immoral, I'm saying the big ag. corp. who lobbies govt. for the subsidy and regulations that then drives their competitors out of business is immoral.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

How long do you think it will take western society to figure out that you hold the phone HORIZONTALLY??!!?

jebus.

 

[dannno]

Sure, people can divest from these companies if they want. I'm simply trying to point out that I don't want the government to punish these greedy, evil corporations.

I argue that government should punish the corporations by ending their own (govt.) involvement in the market, and that's what I argue to OWS and progressive folks.

 

[Brett85]

You're arguing that James Taggart is a better person than Dagny Taggart. You're arguing that it's ethical to act unethically, because violating the rights of people is acceptable if it means making money. You're arguing that the moochers and the looters are the good guys.

The government violates the rights of the people on a constant basis. If the government didn't give subsidies and bailouts to businesses, these businesses wouldn't have the opportunity to take advantage of the system. But in a free society with no government at all, you would still have "greed." It's just that these businesses would be allowed to fail when they ran their business poorly.

 

[kylejack]

Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein lied to Congress under oath. Perjury carries a federal penalty of up to 5 years. Think he'll ever be prosecuted or serve a day? Of course not.

 

[milo10]

I understand it, but I just blame the government for becoming too involved in the market, rather than blaming the businesses who take advantage of the system. They're simply doing what they think is best for their shareholders.

Okay, where I think the disagreement lies then in terms of ethics. You seem to think that there is nothing inherently wrong with something if it is legal, or mostly legal.

From another angle, if you can't find something wrong with corporations, how do you find something wrong with govt? It is not like the govt exists other than the people and structures that make it up. Individuals in government would not have had a footing to expand their power if the ideas that led to corporatism and socialism were not to be found in society. Nobody would have stood for it.

So you could say the govt is not at fault.

Then you could say the intellectuals who put forth ideas like socialism were responding to real social issues, like dire poverty, pollution, and so forth. They had bad ideas, but where were the intellects with good ideas to answer them? So you blame the people who understood liberty, but didn't make their voices heard.

And so on and so forth, with an infinite regress argument.

 

[Brett85]

Why? Many of them have broken laws capriciously, especially big banks like Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs was selling products to investors that they knew were shit. It was clear fraud, but when you're big enough and important enough you don't get prosecuted.

I never said that companies shouldn't be prosecuted for engaging in illegal activity. They absolutely should be. My point was simply that the government really can't do anything to "punish" corporations as long as they're abiding by the law.

 

[kylejack]

Lawful Evil

Lawful Evil is referred to as the "Dominator" or "Diabolic" alignment. Characters of this alignment see a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.

Like Lawful Good Paladins, Lawful Evil characters may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey law or evil when the two conflict. However, their issues with Law versus Evil are more concerned with "Will I get caught?" versus "How does this benefit me?"

Boba Fett of Star Wars, and X-Men's Magneto are cited examples of Lawful Evil characters.[7] The Lawful Evil outsiders are known as Baatezu (Devils).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)#Lawful_Evil

 

[gls]

You're arguing that James Taggart is a better person than Dagny Taggart. You're arguing that it's ethical to act unethically, because violating the rights of people is acceptable if it means making money. You're arguing that the moochers and the looters are the good guys.

The corporations are not violating the rights of people; the government is violating the rights of people on behalf of the corporations. Big government and the "free market" can not co-exist because this is inevitable, therefore we need to choose one or the other. I choose the "free market" because General Electric is not going to put me in a jail for refusing to buy their products.

 

[Brett85]

I argue that government should punish the corporations by ending their own (govt.) involvement in the market.

Then we completely agree.

 

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

These fucking idiots are pissing me off, and the people here apologizing for them while spending more time supporting them than supporting Ron piss me off too. Ron handled it perfectly. Now, we better be ready for these children to fuck with the Iowa caucuses.

Yeah, I pretty much lost 100% of my respect for them. Out of all the politicians they could do this to, they do it to the most honest one. It's apparent this is the soviet's tea party.

 

[CaseyJones]

Ron > Atticus

 

[milo10]

Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein lied to Congress under oath. Perjury carries a federal penalty of up to 5 years. Think he'll ever be prosecuted or serve a day? Of course not.

The poor man was doing God's work, and all crazed liberals like you can do is hate on the American way.

Maybe you should take your copy of Das Kapital and move to North Korea!

 

[kylejack]

The corporations are not violating the rights of people;

Of course they are. Telling someone that you're selling them pearls when you're selling them swine is defrauding the person.

 

[Brett85]

The corporations are not violating the rights of people; the government is violating the rights of people on behalf of the corporations. Big government and the "free market" can not co-exist because this is inevitable, therefore we need to choose one or the other. I choose the "free market" because General Electric is not going to put me in a jail for refusing to buy their products.

Absolutely. I don't see how anybody can argue with that.

 

[kylejack]

Should corporations commit genocide in pursuit of profit in a country where genocide by corporations is legal, and the genocide would result in a big profit? Have the executives committed an unethical act by ordering or participating in that genocide?

If you answer yes, you're a heavy Lawful Evil and there's not much that can be said until you come around ethically.