Ok Christian Church, what gave us the right to go to war?

[Dr.3D]

Tried? If that church didn't become the roman church... and your bible is built off of the roman church in nicea.. then you are following the wrong religion.
The religion you seek was killed by the romans.

So what you are trying to say, is because the Church of Rome slept with the government of Rome, they are supposed to be the real Christian Church?

Sounds more like a whore to me.

 

[torchbearer]

I've read some good things about the Cathars, until the Pope's army annihilated them.

the Pope's army didn't like the gnostics either. they didn't believe you needed a human authority figure to find god.
this was not good for business or government.

 

[torchbearer]

So what you are trying to say, is because the Church of Rome slept with the government of Rome, they are supposed to be the real Christian Church?

Sounds more like a whore to me.

The Catholic church was the whore of Constantine.
Constantine didn't become a christian really, the church became Constantine.
the guy was emperor. what he said... was law.
Did the priest control him, or did he control the priest?
Or was it a mutually beneficial relationship of power sharing?

Interesting questions. But when you go down this road, you will find your bible to be as shallow as the men who chose what books went in it.
And on top of that... the protestant version is short a couple more books.
Why not have other texts to include all the writtings? Well, some were "deemed" to be god inspire(those that fit together and fit the purpose), and those that were heresy (99.9999% gnostic text)
The gnostic christians were not represented at the council of nicea.

 

[Dr.3D]

The Catholic church was the whore of Constantine.
Constantine didn't become a christian really, the church became Constantine.
the guy was emperor. what he said... was law.
Did the priest control him, or did he control the priest?
Or was it a mutual beneficial relationship of power sharing?

Interesting questions. But when you go down this road, you will find your bible to be as shallow as the men who chose what books went in it.
And on top of that... the protestant version is short a couple more books.
Why not have other texts to include all the writtings? Well, some were "deemed" to be god inspire(those that fit together and fit the purpose), and those that were heresay (99.9999% gnostic text)
The gnostic christians were not represented at the council of nicea.

I don't agree with the beliefs of the gnostic sect. I also do not believe there should be a hierarchy of people within the church.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

[Truth Warrior]

the Pope's army didn't like the gnostics either. they didn't believe you needed a human authority figure to find god.
this was not good for business or government.

There's no money or power in that point of view.

 

[torchbearer]

I don't agree with the beliefs of the gnostic sect. I also do not believe there should be a hierarchy of people within the church.

well, that is your belief.
i'm dealing with history .. because your belief should be backed by some facts.
You keep quoting a book put together by power brokers of the early Roman Catholic Church.
They decided for you, what you would believe because they made sure, that from an early age, you were given their bible and not a gnostic one.
That is why people get into these belief systems.
Had you been born in india, you would have most likely been hindu.

 

[torchbearer]

There's no money or power in that point of view.

I'm just picturing you in an early gnostic sect.

 

[Dr.3D]

Constantine (and the Council of Nicea, for that matter) had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea.

However, long before Constantine, 21 books were acknowledged by all Christians (the 4 Gospels, Acts, 13 Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation). There were 10 disputed books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Ps-Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, Gospel of Hebrews) and several that most all considered heretical (Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthaias, Acts of Andrew, John, etc.)

 

[torchbearer]

Constantine (and the Council of Nicea, for that matter) had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea.

However, long before Constantine, 21 books were acknowledged by all Christians (the 4 Gospels, Acts, 13 Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation). There were 10 disputed books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Ps-Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, Gospel of Hebrews) and several that most all considered heretical (Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthaias, Acts of Andrew, John, etc.)

repost:

Interesting questions. But when you go down this road, you will find your bible to be as shallow as the men who chose what books went in it.
And on top of that... the protestant version is short a couple more books.
Why not have other texts to include all the writtings? Well, some were "deemed" to be god inspire(those that fit together and fit the purpose), and those that were heresy (99.9999% gnostic text)
The gnostic christians were not represented at the council of nicea.

Yeh- the bible was commisioned to be put together by edict: Emperor Diocletian issued in A.D. 302
1st Council of Nicea was in 325. there were more on the trinity thing at the time. deciding for the people, how they will view god.

there were many meetings/councils of the power brokers over that time period, but it was the edict of 302 that called for them to be condensed to one official collection.

just some other info on the progress of the book you get your idea of god from..

Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the Apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John. The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

the politics of building a religious institution requires one version of the truth.

 

[Dr.3D]

So, you agree, most of the cannon was established before Constantine even lived?

 

[torchbearer]

Basically, everything you know about god, from the book you like to quote, was determined by people throughout history. Some adding, Some taking away..
None of it was done by god. And the purpose of those churches, wasn't for god.
It won't be long until the Holy Roman Empire is born, and the crusades begin.
Then the idea of divine right, earth as centered of universe.
Inquisitions. Indulgences. Infighting. The dark ages.
All courtesy of this fine tradition centered around early man's perceptions of his world and his god.

No different than any other society.

 

[hope7134]

To: thehittgirl: don’t read the bible as a history book. Read it an allow God to bring it to life. If you will open your heart and your mind and look at the reading of the bible as an opportunity to know, experience and receive, you will have experiences in God that will absolutely make you fall in love and desire opportunities to read it. Without it, you have no opportunities to have real and lasting victories in live. Remember we have enemies, but they are not flesh and blood.

Tonesforjonesbones: Israel was promised a messiah. They rejected him. Jesus in the temple declared himself from the scriptures to be the messiah. They still rejected. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and said if you have only known the hour of your visitation. He then he stopped Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was a persecutor of the Christian church at which was not yet anything but jewish. Christ not only stopped him from the persecutor of those jews who were converting to Christianity, he sent Paul to the gentiles so they could also be made part of the Christian church. Because Christ is building a church that is not built by human hands. It is a church in the spirit. One that is aware that it is a heavenly church, not a human church. Paul knew this also and though he took great persecution because he was led to the gentiles and included the gentiles with the jews. Paul was the one Christ used to begin to carry the message of salvation to all mankind, as the message is for all mankind. As the book of Revelations says, come whosoever will. That’s why Paul wrote: there is now neither jew or greek, neither male nor female, neither bond nor free all are one in Christ Jesus. Paul also said: one is not a jew after circumcision (the old covenant), he has now a jew after the circumcision of the heart (the new covenant). He also said this last group would put the prior group to shame. Israel now is the jew of the heart. (I won’t take you to these scriptures, because I would hope you would look them up and know them for yourself.) Christ is building a heavenly church, not ones made with human hands, but of Gods work on the heart. You shall now this church by their fruits, not by whatever religious title they wear. But, you will know their heart is circumcised.

Torchbearer: As you can see from above, Paul is so loved by the Christian church because he was the disciple to the gentiles. You are wrong about Paul being against woman, he had two women who were ministers under his direct authority. They are talked about in the book of Acts. The reason Paul wanted to have women learn from their husbands at home, they were unlearned. They had recently received the scriptures, but didn’t understand them. (To understand this you would need a deeper study of the bible than this post allows).Like I have said so many times on this forum, babies do not need to be leading the church, they need some instruction. The woman at that time had not instruction and it was causing problems in the church. Well, it’s the same thing now. We have a lot of people who have a lot of scripture, but they have no instruction on the scripture. They do more damage to the church than they do good. The church today has people who have been in church for 20-30 years and the only lesson they ever learned was sin and salvation. They are still at the basics. Yet they go around, beating people over the head with the only lesson they have, like a child with a milk bottle. In all that time they have never grow up to eat the meat. Paul rebuked the church for this. He wanted to bring them meat, but he saw they were still drinking milk. We have the same problem today. But, Paul was not against women, he wanted them to be instructed more and become learned and receive some wisdom. But, again study the new testament and read Paul’s writings. A great place to start is the book of Acts. You will also then understand why Paul is esteemed in the church.

About your question concerning the need for the old testament: it is the book of the law, without it we would not fully understand the new testament of grace, through Christ Jesus. It’s like trying to understand the United States without our Constitution.

It all comes back to doing what the bible says: we must study to show ourselves approved. The bible is our instruction book and Christ is the guide through the book. We are in a very dangerous time, many false prophets and teachers are at work. You must know the truth for yourself. But, for not only that reason, but because of the experiences received, by being in right relationship with Christ. If you will know the truth for yourself, it will set you free.

For all the history lessons: Christ is not the head of the human churches, he is the head of a spiritual church. Not the church that follows religions, but the chruch the follows the heart. The heart that has Christ and is led by him. That church comes from all over the place and it understands all religions have it wrong. That is why is it so important to stop following any man, no matter how high up in the church world and follow Christ. Follow Christ. He's not building a church made with human hands! It's a church of the spirit.

 

[torchbearer]

So, you agree, most of the cannon was established before Constantine even lived?

The writings came from all over, and originated before constantine.
How the bible would be taught was determined by the power brokers, who were under the control of the emperor. (whatever emperor was in power at that time)

Early versions had few books, later versions had more books... then fewer books.
Just depends on who was making the decisions at the time.
Note- had god been instructed people to put his book together, it wouldn't have required so many revisions. Unless god is fickle.

 

[Truth Warrior]

I'm just picturing you in an early gnostic sect.

My, what a rich fantasy life you must live.

"I sent the club a wire stating, PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER." -- Groucho Marx

 

[Dr.3D]

Basically, everything you know about god, from the book you like to quote, was determined by people throughout history. Some adding, Some taking away..
None of it was done by god. And the purpose of those churches, wasn't for god.
It won't be long until the Holy Roman Empire is born, and the crusades begin.
Then the idea of divine right, earth as centered of universe.
Inquisitions. Indulgences. Infighting. The dark ages.
All courtesy of this fine tradition centered around early man's perceptions of his world and his god.

No different than any other society.

Yeah, the so called Holy Roman Empire was indeed the start of the Inquisitions, Indulgences, infighting and the dark ages. This can all be attributed to have been brought about by the Church in Rome sleeping with the government of Rome.

 

[torchbearer]

To: thehittgirl: don’t read the bible as a history book. Read it an allow God to bring it to life. If you will open your heart and your mind and look at the reading of the bible as an opportunity to know, experience and receive, you will have experiences in God that will absolutely make you fall in love and desire opportunities to read it. Without it, you have no opportunities to have real and lasting victories in live. Remember we have enemies, but they are not flesh and blood.

Tonesforjonesbones: Israel was promised a messiah. They rejected him. Jesus in the temple declared himself from the scriptures to be the messiah. They still rejected. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and said if you have only known the hour of your visitation. He then he stopped Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was a persecutor of the Christian church at which was not yet anything but jewish. Christ not only stopped him from the persecutor of those jews who were converting to Christianity, he sent Paul to the gentiles so they could also be made part of the Christian church. Because Christ is building a church that is not built by human hands. It is a church in the spirit. One that is aware that it is a heavenly church, not a human church. Paul knew this also and though he took great persecution because he was led to the gentiles and included the gentiles with the jews. Paul was the one Christ used to begin to carry the message of salvation to all mankind, as the message is for all mankind. As the book of Revelations says, come whosoever will. That’s why Paul wrote: there is now neither jew or greek, neither male nor female, neither bond nor free all are one in Christ Jesus. Paul also said: one is not a jew after circumcision (the old covenant), he has now a jew after the circumcision of the heart (the new covenant). He also said this last group would put the prior group to shame. Israel now is the jew of the heart. (I won’t take you to these scriptures, because I would hope you would look them up and know them for yourself.) Christ is building a heavenly church, not ones made with human hands, but of Gods work on the heart. You shall now this church by their fruits, not by whatever religious title they wear. But, you will know their heart is circumcised.

Torchbearer: As you can see from above, Paul is so loved by the Christian church because he was the disciple to the gentiles. You are wrong about Paul being against woman, he had two women who were ministers under his direct authority. They are talked about in the book of Acts. The reason Paul wanted to have women learn from their husbands at home, they were unlearned. They had recently received the scriptures, but didn’t understand them. (To understand this you would need a deeper study of the bible than this post allows).Like I have said so many times on this forum, babies do not need to be leading the church, they need some instruction. The woman at that time had not instruction and it was causing problems in the church. Well, it’s the same thing now. We have a lot of people who have a lot of scripture, but they have no instruction on the scripture. They do more damage to the church than they do good. The church today has people who have been in church for 20-30 years and the only lesson they ever learned was sin and salvation. They are still at the basics. Yet they go around, beating people over the head with the only lesson they have, like a child with a milk bottle. In all that time they have never grow up to eat the meat. Paul rebuked the church for this. He wanted to bring them meat, but he saw they were still drinking milk. We have the same problem today. But, Paul was not against women, he wanted them to be instructed more and become learned and receive some wisdom. But, again study the new testament and read Paul’s writings. A great place to start is the book of Acts. You will also then understand why Paul is esteemed in the church.

About your question concerning the need for the old testament: it is the book of the law, without it we would not fully understand the new testament of grace, through Christ Jesus. It’s like trying to understand the United States without our Constitution.

It all comes back to doing what the bible says: we must study to show ourselves approved. The bible is our instruction book and Christ is the guide through the book. We are in a very dangerous time, many false prophets and teachers are at work. You must know the truth for yourself. But, for not only that reason, but because of the experiences received, by being in right relationship with Christ. If you will know the truth for yourself, it will set you free.

1 Timothy 2:9-15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[torchbearer]

Yeah, the so called Holy Roman Empire was indeed the start of the Inquisitions, Indulgences, infighting and the dark ages. This can all be attributed to have been brought about by the Church in Rome sleeping with the government of Rome.

these are the same people who said... only these books can be read in churches.
meaning, since the only people who could read were clergy, that you were getting their version of Jesus.
And your version of Jesus? Where does it come from? Who decided that would be what you were taught from an early age?
If your reality is the ultimate truth, why are there muslims, jews, hindu, buddhist, etc.
You got it right and EVERYONE else got it wrong? how arrogant of you.
Look at what you believe in the context of the world's history, not just christian history. you are no different from anyone else.
You believe what your culture tells you to believe. Like i said before, were you born and raised in India, you would most likely be hindu, and be defending your god(s) like you are defending your bible.

How do i know so much about christianity? 14 years of study. 4 years being heavy study at collegiate level. I wanted to know the truth. And I found it.
Was willing to accept it.
No one knows god without searching for him/her/it. And until you have seriously studied all the religions and sciences of men, you can't even begin to tell someone else about god.

 

[torchbearer]

Got an client in a couple minutes- love this conversation.
will check back later!

 

[hope7134]

Torchbearer

You need to do more of a study. I am a woman and know all these scriptures, but you must understand the audience to which Paul was speaking. You see the problem is we have just a piece of the pie, a partial truth and we call it truth, because we never do a thorough study of the subject. We take what we hear and what other's teach us but never obtain all the pieces and get the full picture. That is why I never try to convince anyone. I know whatever I say will cause dissension with someone's believe. So it still comes down to this one thing, you must study it for yourself and be THOROUGHLY convinced in your own mind. Me trying to reveal truth to you is not going to help you get it. You must get it for yourself. I can only show you the water, I can't make you drink. I'm not going to pound you over the head with a bible. What benefit would you receive from that. If you want to know the truth, you must seek it out for yourself or not.

Just keep in mind, Christ is not building a natural church! As Paul said their is neither male or female in Christ.

 

[Dr.3D]

Yes, there are as many schools of theology as there are denominations.
Ask any one of them who is correct in their interpretation and all of them will say they are.