Ok Christian Church, what gave us the right to go to war?

[Truth Warrior]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Mahatma Gandhi

 

[torchbearer]

Yes, there are as many schools of theology as there are denominations.
Ask any one of them who is correct in their interpretation and all of them will say they are.

Right. and what is that saying?
People tend to share the belief system of their society, and each, in a form of ethnocentrism, thinks there are following the one true path.
Only one or none can be the truth.
Though it would be more likely that the truth lies inbetween all of them.
I don't think god is for just one group of people. He is for everyone. And any religion that preaches it is right and all others are wrong... well, just doesn't share that view.

 

[hope7134]

Truthwarrior: Gandhi was right.

Torchbearer: God is for everyone,Christ is for everyone. That's the message of the Kingdom of God. That's why Paul was sent to the gentiles. No one is excluded. The true church is made up of people from all religions. No religion has a corner on the market. All religions have it wrong. That's why Paul said there is no jew, greek, bond, free, man, female all are one in Christ Jesus.

 

[torchbearer]

You need to do more of a study. I am a woman and know all these scriptures, but you must understand the audience to which Paul was speaking. You see the problem is we have just a piece of the pie, a partial truth and we call it truth, because we never do a thorough study of the subject. We take what we hear and what other's teach us but never obtain all the pieces and get the full picture. That is why I never try to convince anyone. I know whatever I say will cause dissension with someone's believe. So it still comes down to this one thing, you must study it for yourself and be THOROUGHLY convinced in your own mind. Me trying to reveal truth to you is not going to help you get it. You must get it for yourself. I can only show you the water, I can't make you drink. I'm not going to pound you over the head with a bible. What benefit would you receive from that. If you want to know the truth, you must seek it out for yourself or not.

Just keep in mind, Christ is not building a natural church! As Paul said their is neither male or female in Christ.

this post is more for you than for me.
people pick and choose what they want to believe and follow in the bible.
Otherwise, all christian women would behave similar to women in muslim societies.
The great quasi-apostle former zealot jew telling people that women should be silent, never hold a position over a man, and for HER sin against humanity, she should remain bare-foot and pregnant.
The bible is a product of man's view of his world at that time in the region. Nothing more.

And every self-justifying post you can write, i've already thought, chewed on.. used at one time myself, or was taught.
I could probably write the script myself.

 

[Dr.3D]

Right. and what is that saying?
People tend to share the belief system of their society, and each, in a form of ethnocentrism, thinks there are following the one true path.
Only one or none can be the truth.
Though it would be more likely that the truth lies inbetween all of them.
I don't think god is for just one group of people. He is for everyone. And any religion that preaches it is right and all others are wrong... well, just doesn't share that view.

I think what it really says... one must read the scriptures and interpret them for themselves. Never listen to what others are telling you, without checking the scriptures to see if they are correct in what they are saying.

Remember the Bereans?

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)

 

[Truth Warrior]

Truthwarrior: Gandhi was right.

 

[hope7134]

Torchbearer, I am agreeing with you. I see women in the church the same way you do. I just believe Paul has received a bum rap, because of the history studies I have done. But, the message you have and I have about women is the same. In my heart I am convinced Paul would agree with us. We truly are all one in Christ.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Torchbearer, I am agreeing with you. I see women in the church the same way you do. I just believe Paul has received a bum rap, because of the history studies I have done. But, the message you have and I have about women is the same. In my heart I am convinced Paul would agree with us. We truly are all one in Christ.

Without Paul, Jesus was a carpenter in Nazereth, nobody heard of.<IMHO>

 

[hope7134]

Torchbearer, please forgive me, if in my last post it sounded as if I was trying to say I was more knowledgeable than you. I truly did not wish to convey it, that way. My desire is that we will all search out the scriptures and pray so we can be fully convinced in ourselves. In saying that, if you will allow me, let me share with you what I have found in my studies, and why I said we need to understand the audience to which Paul or Jesus spoke. The message of the gospel never changes. We must however take into account the audience to which the message is given.


When the apostles were ministering several things were happening with women: 1.) they had been not been taught the scriptures and did not understand the law because they were under the rule of their fathers, brothers, husbands 2.) they had no freedom, they were basically slaves to their husbands. If they tried to usurp authority over their husbands, he could kill them.

What we see in the Muslim world, was the same then.

So Paul and Peter, knew that God would not have them minister anything that would upset the structure of the world at that time. So what both of them minister is women, don’t up spur your husband’s authority. Just trust God and do what is right according to both the law and grace. See Jesus never told us not to obey the law, but he came so that we would all be gracious to it. He came so that it would be fulfilled not abolished.

So he was saying to the women, don’t upset the natural state of affairs in the Kingdom of Man. Just continue on so that your husbands, by your love for them, (through your love for Christ), might be won to Christ.

Neither Paul, Peter or Jesus would ever teach women or men to dispute the conditions and circumstances that where in their lives. That society for women was like the muslim society today, if women did claim superiority, they could lose their lives. So Paul instructed them to keep on keeping on, with Christ in their hearts, but he also instructed men, love your lives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for them. Paul taught what Jesus taught, that we should all be servants to one another, because he that is last shall be first in the Kingdom of God.

So he instructed both male and female to love one another and serve one another. In other words, husbands don’t abuse your wives, love them, respect them, honor them. This was a strong message, because it wasn’t required in that society. Women were property and men were not required to love them. Paul told them plainly, if they didn't love their wives, they were wrong. So Paul actually tried to help women's positions, as best he could in the society at that time. But the message is still the same, let us love one another.

Torchbearer, I hope this helps clarify what I was saying and why I said everyone needs to study for themselves. Thank you for calling me on what seemed to be arrogance on my part. I receive your kind rebuke, I hope you will accept my humble apology.

 

[hope7134]

IRO-bot

For your question who do you trust God or Jesus, I would like to answer that very simply: follow after righteousness, study the word of God, desire a true relationship with Christ and don't follow other men. Find out the truth for yourself. Don't accept anything at face value. Just pray and ask for truth to be revealed and it will be, to your heart. Once it's in your heart, no one will ever be able to convince you otherwise. You won't be led astray. You won't be tossed around by untruth, because you will be rooted (in the word of God and it's truth).

So as I say and continue to say, seek God. He is truly only a prayer away. I promise you if you ask and truly want to receive the answer, you will.

Believe nothing from any other man, question everything. Verify everything by the word of God. Truth is only revealed when you truly want it.

 

[BeFranklin]

Thank you very much for taking the time to cite those quotes and type them out, along with your commentary. I hope you don't mind that I've printed your post out to guide my studies. You've definitely given me some things to look into here!

Yes that looked pretty comprehensive. I'm browsing now, but will go back and save it later.

 

[tribute_13]

Religion make people argue, therefore I try to stay unaffiliated. War is always unjust unless it's in self-defense. Always. That's common sense.

 

[BeFranklin]

Joshua 10:8-14
8 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee. 9 Joshua therefore came unto them suddenly, and went up from Gilgal all night. 10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. 14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

--------

Luke 22:35-37
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

 

[BeFranklin]

The entire idea of a Trinity is not in the Bible.

1 John 5:7-8
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[pacelli]

Ok, been reading up in God's report here about the old v new law issue.

Hebrews 8:13- "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"

The old covenant is ready to vanish away, but when?

Now this:

Matthew 5:17-20: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So isn't he saying that this won't happen until heaven and earth pass? Also now he's calling them least commandments, and he is also talking about teaching them. Evidently if you break one of these 'least' laws and don't teach them, you still get into this building called heaven, but maybe at a different floor of the skyscraper .

 

[Dr.3D]

Depends on what text the version was translated from.

1 John 5:7-8
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

We need to look at the majority of the texts to determine to what extent that verse is valid.

1 John 5:7-8 There are three witnesses - 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood - and these three are in agreement. (CJB)

1 John 5:7-8 So there are three that testify, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord. (NAB)

1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (NAU)

1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that testify: 8 the {7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)} Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (NIV)

Notice here in the New International Version they explain why so many translations don't have what you show in your verse. The King James Version was translated mostly from the Latin Vulgate rather than from the original Greek texts.

1 John 5:7-8 So there are three witnesses, 8 the Spirit, water and blood; and the three of them coincide. (NJB)

1 John 5:7-8 So we have these three witnesses-- 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood -- and all three agree. (NLT)

1 John 5:7-8 There are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.(NRS)

1 John 5:8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. (RSV)

 

[Dr.3D]

Ok, been reading up in God's report here about the old v new law issue.

The old covenant is ready to vanish away, but when?

The old covenant law was rendered outdated when Jesus was nailed to the cross but vanished when the church was established and after the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and there was no longer any way to do the sacrifices those who were still clinging to the old law should have noticed they could not keep from violating the old covenant law no matter how hard they tried.

Now this:

So isn't he saying that this won't happen until heaven and earth pass? Also now he's calling them least commandments, and he is also talking about teaching them. Evidently if you break one of these 'least' laws and don't teach them, you still get into this building called heaven, but maybe at a different floor of the skyscraper .

The old covenant law will never be destroyed till heaven and earth pass away. They are what we use to define what sin is.

Notice Jesus says.. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

The word fulfill is probably the most important word in that statement.

Now notice Jesus says.. "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jesus fulfilled the law when He was nailed to the cross.
Before Jesus fulfilled the law, anyone who violated the least of any of the old law would be considered least in the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom of heaven is not really like some kind of a building. It is purely spiritual. Those who would violate the old covenant law were condemned to a low position in the spiritual kingdom.

With the laws of the new covenant, it is much simpler not to violate the law. If we do accidentally violate one of those laws, we are saved by the grace of God, because we accepted the gift He gave us when His son died on the cross. If we believe Jesus died to take our sin, we then don't have any sin. This does not mean we should think we may violate the law on purpose and that we will get away with it. We are after all, flesh and blood and do make mistakes. If we are repentant of those accidental sins, we are forgiven.

I hope this answers your questions.

 

[hope7134]

And also:

The law was administered by the Levitican priesthood, but there is now a better priest (Christ Jesus) who administers grace. It's by grace we are saved by faith in him, not by keeping the laws. Jesus came because no one could keep the laws for us. So he paid the price for the sin of breaking the law, for all of us, by his death. That was his fulfillment and it was for us all. Now we any need to believe and accept by faith that he did that and then we are free from the curses of failure to keep the law. Now we must keep the two commandments he gave us, concerning love.

Duetronomy 28 gives us the curses and the blessings for keeping the law. Because of Christ, and our accept of the work he finished, we now become heirs to the blessings. It's not by our works, like the law was. It's by grace through faith in Christ. That's what it means to be redeemed from the curses of the law. See why the new covenant is so much better? It's not requiring us to keep a bunch of rules and regulations. It only requires one thing, that we accept Jesus as our savior/redeemer from the law. None of us could keep it, so Jesus came to keep it for us all (fulfilled it for us all), so that we might inherit the blessings that would have only, normally come to those who kept the law. He provided a better way to the blessings of God.

 

[Dr.3D]

More about the New Covenant Commandments

I thought I should perhaps mention more about the New Covenant laws.

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. ([N]RSV)

Here we see this is mentioned in the Old Testament.

Matthew 19:19 Honor your father and mother; also, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." ([N]RSV)

Notice how Jesus included honoring your father and mother in this quote?

Matthew 22:37-40 He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." ([N]RSV)

Here we see Jesus saying all of the law and the prophets hang on just two commandments.

Mark 12:29-33 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 32 Then the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that 'he is one, and besides him there is no other'; 33 and 'to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself,' -- this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." ([N]RSV)

Here we see again Jesus is saying these two commandments are the greatest of all commandments. Notice how the scribe agrees these two commandments are more important than all of the burnt offerings and sacrifices of the old covenant law.

Romans 13:9-10 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet"; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. ([N]RSV)

Here we see Paul saying how all of the old covenant laws are summed up in just one commandment.

Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." ([N]RSV)

And again how the whole law is summed up in a single commandment. This is obviously the most important commandment of them all.

 

[BeFranklin]

We need to look at the majority of the texts to determine to what extent that verse is valid.

Where is this rule in the bible?

Notice here in the New International Version they explain why so many translations don't have what you show in your verse. The King James Version was translated mostly from the Latin Vulgate rather than from the original Greek texts.

That isn't true. Most of the King James, especially the new testament, is a direct descendant of Tyndale's translation, who was murdered for translating the bible into English from the original languages, and whose prayer while he was burning at the stake was to have that bible.

The NIV and most modern translations are corrupt. However, there are many other verses that show the same teaching, including one posted earlier on this thread, which is why virtually every Christian denomination and throughout history believes the Trinity. I'm not sure why you are willing to believe the majority of texts to get rid of a verse (I disagree any of that is valid), but not the majority of Christians about basic doctrine! And the verses are throughout the bible.

John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.