Ok Christian Church, what gave us the right to go to war?

Christians in the churches have been brainwashed ...our government was taken over by neocons who have interest in Israel. We have been involved in many wars...I guess the bottom line is someone is going to profit from wars in some way. Why did the founders decide to war with england? well I guess they didn't because the redcoats came over here to maintain control. What about defense. I guess if we follow Jesus we turn the other cheek, If someone takes your shirt, give him your coat. That's hard for humans to do. Survival and instinct say "defend yourself". I , as a Christian, believe we are on the doorstep of the tribulation and I see a bad moon a risin, I see trouble on the way, I see hurricanes and lightin, I see bad times today. As a Christian, and I can only speak from my perspective, Jesus said "there will be wars and rumors of wars"...this is an earthly, physical event, not a spiritual event..but the Book of Revelation does say..after this earth age is destroyed...there will be another one, right here with the Elect and the Remenant, who will live in peace for 1000 years. Tones
 
I would love some Christian to give me the scriptures where Christ (who is supposed to be the head of the church) ever led us to war!

Matthew 10:34, this guy called christ, says: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword".

The word in this KJV, "sword", Translated from the original Greek word, "machaira, make`-ahee-rah according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, means:

prob. fem. of a presumed der. of 3163; a knife, i.e. dirk; fig. war, judicial punishment:-sword

EDIT: I'm not a Christian, but figured I might be able to at least provide some reference point for ya.
 
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Theocrat, I do want your answer. I'm asking this question, because as Christians, for the sake of the entire church world and our country. Christians (especially evangelicals) are being eaten alive, because of their support of the war. But, are they wrong or are they right. I personally believe, by what I have studied and learned is they are wrong. I can't find anywhere in the bible, that says we should ever, for any reason go to war.

Now, if what I just said is right, then the entire church world needs to repent and pledge to never go down this road again. It's my prayer that they will do just that!

The thing is this, the news media was screaming about the muslims being warmongering, because the muslim leadership wouldn't condemn the terrorists and begin ardently standing up that Islam is a religion based on love.

Problem be, Christianity is supposed to be a religion based on love, yet the media wasn't yelling that the church should stand up and proclaim forgiveness. No, just he opposite was true. The media and the religious leaders were yelling war, war, war!

Why did the church go down this path, that's still my question. Were we justified or were we duped and now are taking the fall?


Truth Warrior: Yeah!!!!!That's what I'm talking about!

If we had never gone to war, we would be British subjects right now.
I was in a church that preached nobody should ever go to war and then when it was the 4th of July, they were saying how wonderful it was they were in a free country where they could practice their own religion apart from what it was in Brittan.

At that time I thought to myself, what hypocrites, if our forefathers had thought the way these people are thinking, there would have never been a 4th of July.
 
Matthew 10:34, this guy called christ, says: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword".

The word in this KJV, "sword", Translated from the original Greek word, "machaira, make`-ahee-rah according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, means:



EDIT: I'm not a Christian, but figured I might be able to at least provide some reference point for ya.


Good example, but its not a literal sword in context if you read the following verses it makes it clear. It means that Jesus Christ will cause arguments even among families.

I guess he was right! One believes, the other does not. And this brings the opposite of peace!

Hope,
To answer your question there is no biblical bases for a freakin war like this one because it is waged for the love of money. Obviously, God is pissed off or He wouldn't be coming back and throwing people into a lake of fire to burn for eternity.
 
I don't care how high a religious leader is in the church, none hold a higher position than Christ. He is the ultimate authority and the only true pattern for all christians.

Wouldn't God be the ultimate authority, or have we thrown away the old testament and hung that on the cross?
 
Pacelli, Christ is the head of the Church!

The Supremacy of Christ
Colossians 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him


Jesus said: John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


A book I recently read: by Earline Lockhart A prophetic word to the church and our nation! Pretty interesting stuff!



Autobot: you rock!
 
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We have the right to protect ourselves, our property and our family from any enemy who would do harm to us. If attacked or under imminent attack, then we have the right to protect life and defend life even if using the weapons of war.

I do not believe Iraq, Iran, N Korea, or even Afghanistan is/was an imminent threat to our sovereignty. Our leadership has used the auspices of Christianity (religion) to justify an unjustifiable attack into foreign lands.

Germany had greater moral justification in its invasion into Poland in '39 to protect other German citizens than the USA has had in the invasion of Iraq. Very sad, and very scary for the future of our nation.
 
Jesus is God and vis a vis.

That's what I figured, just wanted to make sure that passages from the Old Testament and the laws, statues, and commandments that God told Moses to write down were OK in this thread.
 
That's what I figured, just wanted to make sure that passages from the Old Testament and the laws, statues, and commandments that God told Moses to write down were OK in this thread.

Those are the Old Covenant. ;)
 
The Supremacy of Christ
Colossians 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him


Jesus said: John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


Thanks for that, I also read this little statement that Jesus is reported to say:

Luke 4:4- And Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

Matthew 4:4- But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

That's not a new statement:

In Deut 8:3 - that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

So, Jesus is the head of the Church, and tells us that we can't live by bread alone but by obeying every single word that comes out of the mouth of God.
 
God's policy on war in the Bible:

In Revelation-

Jesus is coming back and he's got a sword (Rev 1:16), and he's telling people that he's going to start slaying them if they don't repent (Rev 2:16).

Remember, Matthew -- he hasn't come to send peace, he's come to send a sword.

Looks like Jesus is going to start killing some people when he comes back. I'd think that Jesus would be a pretty formidable warrior, wouldn't you?

Deuteronomy 20 - War Chapter. God reveals the Laws that dictate how soldiers are selected and how war is made.
 
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Judges 7:7- And the Lord said unto Gideon, "By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand"..

Judges 8:10..."for there fell an hundred and twenty thousand men that drew sword"

300 men in one of God's armies killed 120,000 men.
 
The Laws and the Covenants

Have we thrown away the old testament and hung that on the cross?

The Laws and the Covenants

All quotes are taken from the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. Added emphasis is mine. Note numbers have been removed for clarity.

Luke 16:16-17 “The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one stroke of a letter in the law to be dropped. ([N]RSV)

Notice from the above verses, the old law is not removed but just no longer in effect. It is still needed to show how we came to our present state of grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. ([N]RSV)

Here Paul tells us we are no longer under the law but instead under grace.

Romans 7:4-6 In the same way, my friends, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. ([N]RSV)

We have died to the law through the body of Christ, we are no longer held by the law and it enslaves us no more.

Romans 8:1-5 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ([N]RSV)

We are free from the law of sin and death! We have new commandments and no longer have to be slaves to the old written laws.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. ([N]RSV)

Jesus put an end to our having to be slaves to the old written law.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. ([N]RSV)

Here is the new law (commandment).

Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. ([N]RSV)

Again we are reminded of the new law (commandment). This is now written in our hearts. Our old stony hearts are now fleshy hearts just as the old law was written on stone, the new law is written in our hearts. (see the parallel)

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law. ([N]RSV)

Here Paul tells how he is only bound by Christ’s law. The law of Jesus is easy to remember. It is in our hearts and not written on paper or stone.

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ,and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. ([N]RSV)

We are not justified by the works of the law but through our faith in Jesus the Christ.

Galatians 3:5 Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? ([N]RSV))

Are we justified by the written law or by believing (faith) in what we heard?

Galatians 3:10-13 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law; for “The one who is righteous will live by faith.” 12 But the law does not rest on faith; on the contrary, “Whoever does the works of the law will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us -- for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” -- ([N]RSV))

If we remain under the works of the law, then we are under a curse! We can no longer observe all of the things written in the book of the law. Even when there was a temple and the ability to have sacrifices, those of the old covenant were not even able to do so.

Galatians 3:23-24 Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. ([N]RSV)

Jesus set us free from the guardianship of the law. There is no need for the tutor after we have graduated to being justified by faith.

Galatians 4:10 You are observing special days, and months, and seasons, and years. ([N]RSV)

Paul was disappointed by those who after he had been with them were still keeping the ‘Holy Days’ of the old covenant laws.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? ([N]RSV)

Those who would be subject to the old covenant laws did not listen to those laws nor do them. Now, instead of listening to the new law Jesus has given us, they continue to cling to the old laws.

Galatians 5:3-4 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. ([N]RSV)

Those who would continue on with the old covenant laws have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” ([N]RSV)

Here is the law we are to have written in our hearts. There are actually two…. The first one is to love God with all your heart soul and strength. These two are the laws (commandments) Jesus wants us to keep. These are the commandments referred to in the book of Revelation.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. ([N]RSV)

If we are truly led by the spirit, we should not subject ourselves to the written law of the old covenant.

Ephesians 2:15-16 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. ([N]RSV)

I urge you to check what the above verse implies for yourself.

Titus 3:9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. ([N]RSV)

We are told to avoid controversies about the old written law and such as they are not profitable for anything. (something many of us are guilty of at this time)

2 Corinthians 2:17 - 3:8 For we are not peddlers of God’s word like so many; but in Christ we speak as persons of sincerity, as persons sent from God and standing in his presence. 1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Surely we do not need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you or from you, do we? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all; 3 and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses’ face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, 8 how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? ([N]RSV)

This confirms the stone tablets are also part of the old covenant written law.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt -- a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ([N]RSV)

We may see from these verses, there is nothing new in what Paul is saying. The new covenant was prophesied in the book of Jeremiah.

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ([N]RSV)

Paul is showing how the prophecy has been fulfilled .

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. ([N]RSV)

The old covenant became obsolete when Jesus died and then later it disappeared with the destruction of the second temple. It was no longer able to be followed. All of the sacrifices were unable to be observed nor any of the temple services of the old covenant.

Hebrews 9:1-4 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tent was constructed, the first one, in which were the lampstand, the table, and the bread of the Presence; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a tent called the Holy of Holies. 4 In it stood the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which there were a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; ([N]RSV)

Again it is confirmed the tablets of stone were of the old covenant. This old covenant is finished and we are now living by the new covenant.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds," ([N]RSV)

Just as God said He would, He sent His son and made a new covenant with His people. He confirmed it with many in the last of the seventy weeks. He wrote it in their hearts and not on tablets of stone as before.



Please be aware, I am not saying the Sabbath was not sanctified by God as a Holy day. It was sanctified by God right after the sixth day of creation. What I am saying is we should not keep the old covenant laws concerning how it is to be observed. One may work, build a fire or anything else one normally would do, even on the Sabbath. What we must do is remember it is sanctified by God as Holy! I am not saying we should observe a pagan day rather than the Sabbath for the day we should have church services we may have church on any of the days of the week as long as we don’t acknowledge that day of the week as being sacred to a pagan god.



We have but one what may be called ‘Holy Day’ now. This day is the day when we observe what may be called the ‘Christian Passover’. By eating the bread and drinking the wine we are to remember the sacrifice Jesus made for us and the reason He made it. This day is not just to be observed once a year as may have told us but rather as often as needed to remind us of the sacrifice God made when He gave His son as the final sacrifice to save us from slavery. This freedom is not just to the slavery of sin, but also from the slavery to the laws of the old covenant. Continuing to keep the old written laws of the old covenant is refusing to accept the grace Jesus died to give us through His body and blood. Refusing to accept the new covenant, we curse ourselves by rejecting His gift.



We are now free from all of the burdens of slavery to laws and sin. We have in us a heart not of stone but of flesh and written in or on our hearts and minds are the commandments of our Lord Jesus the Christ. We are not subject to any of the old laws written on stone or by Moses on paper. Instead, we have the Holy Spirit as our guide and know in our hearts what is righteous and thus what we should do. If perhaps we slip, we know it is our flesh that has made the slip and not of our spirit. Yes, we are to remember the old laws, written on the tablets, for if we did not know what they said, we would not have known sin.



Should we continue to sin because we are free from the law? Of course not!
 
Pacelli, my heart leaps with joy!

From Pacelli:Thanks for that, I also read this little statement that Jesus is reported to say:

Luke 4:4- And Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

Matthew 4:4- But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

That's not a new statement:

In Deut 8:3 - that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

So, Jesus is the head of the Church, and tells us that we can't live by bread alone but by obeying every single word that comes out of the mouth of God.


From Hope: Yes, Yes, Yes! A thousand times yes! The word of God is the food that every spirit needs to grow up and be strong. The word of God is the seed that must be planted, so that it can help us grow in God and understand fully his ways. That is why everyone must understand the word of God for themselves. It is food for the spirit. And no man can eat food for any other man. That's why it is so important to not follow any body else or their teachings. You must seek out the words of God for yourself. It is the food that you must eat for yourself. If anyone teachs you to follow them, believe them, trust them that are a liar and the truth is not in them. Because if they are a true teacher, they will tell you to seek God and Jesus Christ who he sent, because only Christ has the words of eternal life, that you as an individual need to live spiritually. Pacelli, I am rejoicing as Christ must have rejoicing when Peter said to Christ: "Where would we go, only you have the words of eternal life." The greatest teachers are the ones who point you to Christ. If you will hear them, they will help show you the way, but they can never make you eat. The best that they can do is try to lead you to the water, but they can never make you drink it. You, Pacelli, have found the water of Life, drink it, so you will live forever. That water and that bread that gives life, is the word of God. Get it way down inside your own heart and the truth of it will set you free. God bless you, you have found the way!


Pacelli here's a couple of questions that might help you see, something specatular:
In the following passage, what was in the beginning?
That which was in the beginning, what does the passage say it is?
Why then would it be extremely important for all people to understand the word for themselves?
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

When Jesus fought his enemy (Satan) in the wilderness, he used the written word against the enemy. Are enemies are not flesh and blood, but principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. So should we use guns and battleships to defeat our enemies? Would these weapons be effective?

If my people who are called by my name would humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked way, I will hear from heaven and I will heal their land. Prayer by faith in the word of God, is the only true weapon of warfare, God is the only true defender of a righteous people.
 
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The Laws and the Covenants

All quotes are taken from the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. Added emphasis is mine. Note numbers have been removed for clarity.



Notice from the above verses, the old law is not removed but just no longer in effect. It is still needed to show how we came to our present state of grace.

<snip>

Thank you very much for taking the time to cite those quotes and type them out, along with your commentary. I hope you don't mind that I've printed your post out to guide my studies. You've definitely given me some things to look into here!
 
Thank you very much for taking the time to cite those quotes and type them out, along with your commentary. I hope you don't mind that I've printed your post out to guide my studies. You've definitely given me some things to look into here!

Feel free to use anything I have posted. :)
Edit: And don't take my word for anything, always check the scriptures for yourself to see if what is said is actually the truth.
Second Edit: And please, if you find anything in my post inaccurate, please let me know. I would never intensionally post anything I knew to be inaccurate. I always want to know if I have made a mistake. These kinds of mistakes are deadly and should immediately be corrected.
 
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Dr. 3D, a son of God!

Exactly, Christ fulfilled the 10 commandments that we as humans could not keep. By accepting him, we receive the fulfillment of those commandments. Because Christ fulfilled the old covenant by his death, we can now enter into the new covenant of eternal life through Christ Jesus. He gave us two commandments to follow and he said they were not difficult to bear, 1.) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and 2.) Love your neighbor as yourself. Then He said in these two commandments are all the laws (the 10 commandments) and the prophets fulfilled. So he took away the 10 commandments and gave us the commandments of love.

Love is the highest lesson, any man can learn. There are many lessons, Christ teachs us as we follow him, but the grestest lesson is love.

Love for God and love for our fellow man.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

People want you to believe them because they have a lot of scriptures, but Jesus said we should know them because they possess the fruits of the spirit. That's why I tell people seek God, if you want to know whose telling you the truth, because is word will never fail to answer all your questions. Seek God, always for yourself and then you will never be deceived.
 
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