**Official** Trayvon Martin thread

[jmdrake]

Yea, everyone is supposed to assume that a total stranger is going to act all third grade and stop once a bloody nose is delivered.

Most fist fight between strangers end without serious bodily injury. And if your that afraid of getting beat up you shouldn't be on "block patrol" and out trying to accost suspects like your some kind of freaking cop.

And you're calling other people dense ... Unreal !!!

Dense is you claiming the result of a possible murder not being prosecuted is somehow okay. Again, using your twisted logic, murder charges can almost always be avoided. Pick a fight with someone, let them get the best of you, then shoot them. Or let your friend shoot them. It doesn't matter. Your friend can say "I was afraid my friend was going to be killed by a punch in the nose".

 

[jmdrake]

I surely believe there must be enough evidence to justify this. Now can we stop convicting the guy before the jury does?

Can we stop convicting Trayvon?

 

[azxd]

Pardon the interruption while I post another article with information I hadn't seen before:

4:35 p.m. EST, March 26, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...t-20120326_1_miami-schools-civil-rights-punch

I totally believe the first sentence is possible ... People can be killed by the first blow, so never let some idiot talk you into thinking a fist is not a deadly weapon.

And the aspect of a shooting seems to be the issue for some ... Zimmerman could have just as easily stopped the threat with his bare hands or something else, and had the same final result.

 

[azxd]

For the record I don't think Zimmerman should be charged with a hate crime. Just murder in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree. He killed someone over at best dubious circumstances. That's enough to warrant charges in a sane world.

Why not involuntary manslaughter ?
That's what my past co-worker example received.

 

[azxd]

Keep in mind... this is exactly what the establishment wants... they want to divide us and trigger a race war.

YES, and it provides ammo to remove firearms from the hands of law abiding citizens, or just declare some form of Martial Law.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Can we stop convicting Trayvon?

That's impossible...the young man is dead.

 

[RonPaulMall]

The right to meet "force with force" does not include the right to meet "force with deadly force just because you are losing a fist fight".

Again with the straw men. Losing a fight has nothing to do with anything. Being attacked or not is what is relevant. An attacker who has the tables turned on him and is losing a fight would have no right to self defense.

And what's the definition of "starting it"? Who actually lands the first punch? Or would approaching someone in a threatening manner making it look like you are going to hit him count?

Again, are you truly this dense? Starting it would be pushing, shoving, grabbing, announcing "I'm going to kick your arse boy". This is obvious stuff. Stop pretending we are all in kindergarten.

Zimmerman's own account doesn't have him committing an unlawful act. He followed Martin (legal), confronted him (legal), asked him a question (legal), and was then insulted and attacked (illegal). For police to arrest anyone, or conclude that a crime was committed, they need to find evidence that Zimmerman started the fight. Not that by his own lawful acts he put himself in to a position where a fight might occur, but that he started the fight. Show evidence for that and you will be justified in asking for an arrest. Don't provide any evidence and you are just joining the lynch mob.

 

[azxd]

Most fist fight between strangers end without serious bodily injury. And if your that afraid of getting beat up you shouldn't be on "block patrol" and out trying to accost suspects like your some kind of freaking cop.



Dense is you claiming the result of a possible murder not being prosecuted is somehow okay. Again, using your twisted logic, murder charges can almost always be avoided. Pick a fight with someone, let them get the best of you, then shoot them. Or let your friend shoot them. It doesn't matter. Your friend can say "I was afraid my friend was going to be killed by a punch in the nose".

 

[azxd]

Can we stop convicting Trayvon?

It's pretty hard to convict a dead person.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Very judgemental and absolutely wrong of you to suggest that a fist fight cannot end in death, and that a fist fight will not bring with it serious harm or death.

A fistfight that could have been avoided, had Zimmerman heeded the admonishment of the 911 dispatcher and stood down.

He remains unjustified, under the law as it stands right now, based on the facts I have seen so far.

CCW holders, do not follow the argument that is being thrown out here by some, thrown out recklessly, in my my opinion.

You will go to jail if you do.

 

[MelissaWV]

Again with the straw men. Losing a fight has nothing to do with anything. Being attacked or not is what is relevant. An attacker who has the tables turned on him and is losing a fight would have no right to self defense.



Again, are you truly this dense? Starting it would be pushing, shoving, grabbing, announcing "I'm going to kick your arse boy". This is obvious stuff. Stop pretending we are all in kindergarten.

Zimmerman's own account doesn't have him committing an unlawful act. He followed Martin (legal), confronted him (legal), asked him a question (legal), and was then insulted and attacked (illegal). For police to arrest anyone, or conclude that a crime was committed, they need to find evidence that Zimmerman started the fight. Not that by his own lawful acts he put himself in to a position where a fight might occur, but that he started the fight. Show evidence for that and you will be justified in asking for an arrest. Don't provide any evidence and you are just joining the lynch mob.

Now there is an insult? Where is that coming from, as the person on the phone at the time only heard the question by Martin and the answering question by Zimmerman before the struggle?

I also did not get an answer to why you have asserted he is in a gang.

 

[azxd]

A fistfight that could have been avoided, had Zimmerman heeded the admonishment of the 911 dispatcher and stood down.

He remains unjustified, under the law as it stands right now, based on the facts I have seen so far.

CCW holders, do not follow the argument that is being thrown out here by some, thrown out recklessly, in my my opinion.

You will go to jail if you do.

This from someone who says don't talk to the cops LOL

But please,
Recap the facts for all to see ... Those who are ready to convict might have missed something.

 

[MelissaWV]

There have been no reports that a witness saw that initial punch Zimmerman told police about

From the article someone posted a scant two pages ago.

Those of you saying "witnesses saw Martin start it!" and saying he insulted Zimmerman and threw the first punch... don't seem to have a whole lot to back that up.

 

[azxd]

From the article someone posted a scant two pages ago.

Those of you saying "witnesses saw Martin start it!" and saying he insulted Zimmerman and threw the first punch... don't seem to have a whole lot to back that up.

Within all of this one thing is clear an altercation took place, and one individual is dead.

Does anyone want to wait for a trial, or are we to assume that this is just another page from American History X, and the one breathing did wrong ?

 

[MelissaWV]

Within all of this one thing is clear an altercation took place, and one individual is dead.

Does anyone want to wait for a trial, or are we to assume that this is just another page from American History X, and the one breathing did wrong ?

Nope. All I've been pointing out is that this is cloudy enough that the cops going "nothing to see here," which is the unfortunate result of the SYG legislation, should not stand. It's going before a grand jury, who will get all of the evidence in an orderly fashion, and hear testimony within just a few months of the shooting.

I do think that it will never be enough, though, for people on both sides.

 

[azxd]

Nope. All I've been pointing out is that this is cloudy enough that the cops going "nothing to see here," which is the unfortunate result of the SYG legislation, should not stand. It's going before a grand jury, who will get all of the evidence in an orderly fashion, and hear testimony within just a few months of the shooting.

I do think that it will never be enough, though, for people on both sides.

This I agree with, and here's a strange turn of events - Trayvon Martin's mother files Trademark papers

 

[RonPaulMall]

Dense is you claiming the result of a possible murder not being prosecuted is somehow okay. Again, using your twisted logic, murder charges can almost always be avoided. Pick a fight with someone, let them get the best of you, then shoot them. Or let your friend shoot them. It doesn't matter. Your friend can say "I was afraid my friend was going to be killed by a punch in the nose".

Yes, I guess I am "dense" for believing in probable cause prior to an arrest.

Hypothetical for you: Police arrive upon an accident scene. Dead person at the side of the road by a traffic light. Driver pulled over with a smashed window. Driver says dead person ran out in front of his car. Now, that surely could be what happened. But there are other possibilities. Driver could have ran a red light and struck dead person, in which case he'd be guilty of traffic violation. Driver could have intentionally driven over dead person because he had a beef with him. In that case it is murder. Or, it could have been like he said and the person ran out in front of traffic. By your standard, the driver should be arrested first and then we should look for evidence that suggests guilt, or we should just let a jury try and find such evidence. My standard, or we might call the American Justice Standard, is that the police investigate the driver's story, evaluate the evidence, and try to come up with a theory as to what occurred. If they honestly believe the driver committed a crime, and there is evidence such that this is a reasonable belief, then they have probable cause to make an arrest. But if they find the driver's story credible, they believe it, and the evidence supports it, then they may not make an arrest.

Pick a fight with someone, let them get the best of you, then shoot them. Or let your friend shoot them. It doesn't matter. Your friend can say "I was afraid my friend was going to be killed by a punch in the nose".

If you pick a fight with them, you have lost the right to self defense. Again, you are responding to arguments that no one is making.

 

[dannno]

A fistfight that could have been avoided, had Zimmerman heeded the admonishment of the 911 dispatcher and stood down.

He remains unjustified, under the law as it stands right now, based on the facts I have seen so far.

CCW holders, do not follow the argument that is being thrown out here by some, thrown out recklessly, in my my opinion.

You will go to jail if you do.

I don't think Zimmerman is completely in the right, but it does appear that Martin may have started the confrontation and started beating him in the head...

Assuming he isn't lying, what would you have done? I think I would have shot him in the leg or something. You can die from a beating to the head, so a court may find him in the right.

I think a lot of the information that came out early was vague and you and pcosmar may have assumed that it was vague because the guy was trying to be a cop and so they were protecting him, but it looks like the real reason was because the media wanted to start some major racial confrontations.

Zimmerman told police he got out of his SUV, but lost sight of Martin. As he walked back to his vehicle, he said Martin approached him from behind and asked him if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, the Sentinel reports.

Martin said something like “well you do now,” and punched him in the nose, Zimmerman told police. There has been no report of witnesses to that alleged initial blow.

As the older man fell to the ground, Martin jumped on him and started slamming his head into the sidewalk. In a 911 call from a neighbor, a man can be heard calling for help. Police say they believe it was Zimmerman’s voice, although Martin’s attorney insists it is the teen’s.

The Sentinel reports that one witness told police he was certain he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top, pounding him.

Read more on Newsmax.com: Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story
Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama's Re-Election? Vote Here Now!

http://www.newsmax.com/US/trayvon-m...g/2012/03/26/id/433912?s=al&promo_code=E854-1

 

[Anti Federalist]

This from someone who says don't talk to the cops LOL

But please,
Recap the facts for all to see ... Those who are ready to convict might have missed something.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...t-20120326_1_miami-schools-civil-rights-punch



Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html



Florida law also provides that the use of deadly force is not justified if the defendant is charged with an independent forcible felony, and the defendant was attempting to commit a felony or the defendant initially provoked the use of force against himself.

http://www.criminaldefenseattorneytampa.com/FloridaDefenses/DeadlyForceSelfDefense.aspx



You are not legally justified in chasing after somebody, even if they DID commit a violent felony.

If you do and a fight breaks out after the fact, you will NOT have legal justification for shooting.

Period.

And "not talking to cops" is totally consistent with my message.

I'm trying to keep patriots out of prison.

 

[UtahApocalypse]

Just to clarify:

http://www.sheriffs.org/content/nsa-statement-nw-tragedy-fl

Alexandria, VA – For nearly four decades, the Neighborhood Watch Program (housed within the National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA)) has worked to unite law enforcement agencies, private organizations, and individual citizens in a nation-wide effort to reduce crime and improve local communities.


The purpose of the Neighborhood Watch Program is to enable citizens to act as the “eyes and ears” within their community and alert law enforcement immediately when they notice suspicious activity. However, the Neighborhood Watch Program does not in any way, shape, or form advocate citizens to take the law in their own hands. The success of the program has established Neighborhood Watch as the nation’s premier crime prevention and community mobilization program. Visible signs of the program are seen throughout America on street signs, window decals, community block parties and service projects.

"The alleged action of a “self-appointed neighborhood watchman” last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program,” stated NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.). “NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program.”

“The Neighborhood Watch Program fosters collaboration and cooperation with the community and local law enforcement by encouraging citizens to be aware of what is going on in their communities and contact law enforcement if they suspect something – NOT take the law in their own hands,” continued Executive Director Kennard. “The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for and it resulted in a young man losing his life. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of Trayvon Martin during this terrible time.”

Zimmerman was NOT even a Neighborhood Watch "Captain" as there is none in that city per the National Sheriffs Association.