Musk Advocates to Double H-1B Visas

I work with them. You're simply wrong, not just in individual cases, across the board.
...

I have worked with them. I have walked into a company and found an Indian manager, who hired 10 Indian programmers, who had worked for over a year trying to create an application, and it still didn't work. They were not the best and the brightest. They could not use the tools. They were hanging out and socializing. I rewrote the entire thing in a matter of a couple of months and it worked fine.

They put me in charge of vetting and interviewing the new Indian H1Bs. They sent more people who were unqualified. After those were rejected, I eventually found two people who could do the work, even though they had some bad design habits that were common to Indian developers (like the database password being hardcoded, and every environment had the same password (dev, test, prod, etc.)). And that technique resulted in massive damage to all kinds of businesses during and after the great accounting scandals of the late 90s (such as Enron), which resulted in more government regulation in the form of Sarbanes-Oxley. CEOs and executives were in danger of going to jail. And yes, it was all made worse by the poor standards of the Indian programmers, which resulted in databases that could be accessed and changed by almost anyone with no tracking (all using the single, and well distributed database password).
 
They put me in charge of vetting and interviewing the new Indian H1Bs. They sent more people who were unqualified. After those were rejected, I eventually found two people who could do the work, even though they had some bad design habits that were common to Indian developers (like the database password being hardcoded, and every environment had the same password (dev, test, prod, etc.)). And that technique resulted in massive damage to all kinds of businesses during and after the great accounting scandals of the late 90s (such as Enron), which resulted in more government regulation in the form of Sarbanes-Oxley. CEOs and executives were in danger of going to jail. And yes, it was all made worse by the poor standards of the Indian programmers, which resulted in databases that could be accessed and changed by almost anyone with no tracking (all using the single, and well distributed database password).

This matches my experience. A key theme across my career is being expected to maintain quality standards in spite of a team that is otherwise committed to low-quality output.

It's a cultural thing. They don't care about code quality as long as the product is technically working. Sometimes leadership will even embrace this view, and instead of having quality code and quality automated tests, they figure it's just cheaper to hire a small army of manual QA testers.

That perspective almost always backfired.
 
And why are the following "irrelevant"?

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support

Because government is not supposed to be the Omni-nanny, so it shouldn't matter to your paycheck how your next-door neighbor puts food on his table or where he immigrated from, or is a citizen. That is, there should be no tax-effects or other economic effects on you (positive or negative) if XYZ Corp. hires your high-school buddy or someone from overseas. The big idea of the market economy is that XYZ Corp, looking out for its own P/L, will be highly motivated to hire the best candidate they can. And if their company is staffed with the actually best candidates, they can produce better products at a lower price than otherwise. Which is a net benefit to all Americans. And when you multiply that across hundreds of thousands of business across the US, you get enormous benefits -- this is the libertarian principle of prosperity through freedom.

I was unaware that immigration policy was determined by people who hire other people. And you mention American company, why not American worker?

What's the difference? Are we going full-Marxist now? If it benefits American companies, it benefits American workers and, in fact, all American citizens. That is because market effects naturally spread. When the price of butter goes down, it goes down for everybody. That's a universal pay-raise. So yes, if XYZ Butter Corp. can cut their costs by hiring the best and brightest minds from overseas, we (American citizens) should be happy to see them do that.

As far as economic theory goes, isn't the market supposed to adjust? If there is a demand, a need, a shortage of something, won't the invisible hand cure that?

You're reversing cart-and-horse. The market is always arbitraging everything (in sufficiently thick markets) but it's not a magic salve that can heal economic devastation wrought by the government. That's how the Democrats think of the market. "This government program is an economic catastrophe but that's OK, the market will fix it." Doesn't work like that. The market is a giant Truth Machine. It just shows you the reality of what you're actually doing, no matter how much denialism you try to live in. That's why eggs are $14/dozen in California despite supposedly living in "the greatest economy in American history".

Won't more students go into STEM, and get college degrees, if there is a need for them? Won't some people retrain and move into the field? If so, then American workers could and should fill the void.

Sure, but you're not understanding my point. I'm saying "let the market decide (not government bureaucrats)" and this will result in the ideal amount of economic immigration. This is the same issue with other forms of importing. Can America grow herbs and spices? Sure, we can grow herbs and spices. But can America grow as much herbs and spices as India, in such high volume and quality? Probably not, at least, not without using very expensive, space-age technology. So, instead of growing herbs and spices (inefficient), we grow corn. Can India grow as much corn as the US at such volume and quality? Not even close. So what happens is that our corn farmers sell their corn to India, and our spice-sellers import spices from India. That's called specialization, in this case, specialization based on natural resources.

The labor market is no different. Silicon Valley really is unlike other parts of the US... the "high-tech know-how" concentrated there is on another level. Everybody knows their craft, to one degree or another. Lots of countries around the world want to compete with Silicon Valley and that's fine, but they'll never really be able to replicate it because the depth of experience there is already generational. But just because India grows the most spices doesn't mean there are no boutique spice-growers in the US; and just because the US is the biggest corn-grower doesn't mean that Indians can't grow corn locally. So, while the economy responds to scale, scale is not the only factor. The word "diversity" is so overused as to be meaningless but the idea would be like the ecological variety in a jungle. Certain species thrive in certain parts of the jungle, other species in other parts. But throughout, there is an enormous mixture of all the living things in the jungle, constantly interacting with one another. That is what the economy is like and the only thing that national governments can do to "change" things is either construct delusion-bubbles and live in denialism, or go scorched-earth and burn down patches of the jungle. They are wholly unable to do the thing they pretend to be able to do... to wave their magic legislation wand and somehow reconstitute the jungle as though it were an English shrub-garden. There are a million reasons why an American company might benefit from hiring someone from overseas and, if they really will benefit from that (and there are no shenanigans going on), then they are and ought to be free under the Constitution to do so. That's the American brand and we've somehow forgotten it: FREEDOM.

The "great shortage", due to the Y2K crisis, was an emergency that created a great demand for programmers. The government expanded their H1B program to fill that temporary emergency in the late 90s. It has been almost 30 years since then. Is the emergency over? Does it take the market longer than 30 years to adjust?

Or, is this a case of "there is nothing as permanent as a government program"?

Just another example of political shenanigans and delusional thinking. Of course there is no sense in "importing programmers" for Y2K. It was just a political stunt, among countless other stunts.
 
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I have worked with them. I have walked into a company and found an Indian manager, who hired 10 Indian programmers, who had worked for over a year trying to create an application, and it still didn't work. They were not the best and the brightest. They could not use the tools. They were hanging out and socializing. I rewrote the entire thing in a matter of a couple of months and it worked fine.

They put me in charge of vetting and interviewing the new Indian H1Bs. They sent more people who were unqualified. After those were rejected, I eventually found two people who could do the work, even though they had some bad design habits that were common to Indian developers (like the database password being hardcoded, and every environment had the same password (dev, test, prod, etc.)). And that technique resulted in massive damage to all kinds of businesses during and after the great accounting scandals of the late 90s (such as Enron), which resulted in more government regulation in the form of Sarbanes-Oxley. CEOs and executives were in danger of going to jail. And yes, it was all made worse by the poor standards of the Indian programmers, which resulted in databases that could be accessed and changed by almost anyone with no tracking (all using the single, and well distributed database password).

I'm not denying your experiences, and yes, I've met a-hole Indian managers. As an individual contributor engineer, I'm coming at it from the other side of the equation -- I've worked with a lot of natural-born citizens, naturalized citizens and H1Bs. All-in-all, I think that such immigration is a net win for America and Americans if the incentives are aligned correctly.
 
That means nothing to me.

Yes I am, without a doubt, so what?

We used to have a proposition nation, but the people calling me racist are the same people that smashed that ideal and killed it deader than Julius Caesar.

So they want tribalism after declaring war on me.

I am prepared to give that to them.

My first consideration in any public act or question now is: does this harm or help White people?



One need not go back that far.

1965, within probably both of our lifetimes.

Repeal the Hart - Celler Immigration Act.

Out of rep. I sense you have the right heart. But we have to follow the Spirit -- our enemy is ultimately not flesh-and-blood. Beware of the enemy's power to construct phantasms ... they can be as real as the screen you are reading this on. I'm not guessing about that...
 
Because government is not supposed to be the Omni-nanny, so it shouldn't matter to your paycheck how your next-door neighbor puts food on his table or where he immigrated from, or is a citizen.
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OK, you may have missed my point. Let me clarify.

You can buy a TV from China. Your TV from China will not need, or compete with me for:

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support

But when a worker is imported, they then do require, and compete for:

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support


Let me further clarify:

Your TV will not be driving on the road creating traffic jams. Your TV will not be bidding against me to buy a house. Your TV will not be taking up space in the Emergency Room. Your TV will not be taking up seats at the public school. Your TV will not need social security or any other form of government welfare. Your TV will chain import all of the other TVs on it's assembly line, and then need all of the above for themselves.
 
OK, you may have missed my point. Let me clarify.

You can buy a TV from China. Your TV from China will not need, or compete with me for:

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support

But when a worker is imported, they then do require, and compete for:

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support


Let me further clarify:

Your TV will not be driving on the road creating traffic jams. Your TV will not be bidding against me to buy a house. Your TV will not be taking up space in the Emergency Room. Your TV will not be taking up seats at the public school. Your TV will not need social security or any other form of government welfare. Your TV will chain import all of the other TVs on it's assembly line, and then need all of the above for themselves.

Correct. Importing foreign workers drives down wages, and drives up the cost of everything else.

How this is possibly good for America or Americans I would never understand.

It's great for corporations though.
 
Won't more students go into STEM, and get college degrees, if there is a need for them? Won't some people retrain and move into the field? If so, then American workers could and should fill the void.

Sure, but you're not understanding my point. I'm saying "let the market decide (not government bureaucrats)" and this will result in the ideal amount of economic immigration.

There was a government created program, to solve a government created "crisis", and you are still talking about "free market"?

My point is simple. Without the H1B GOVERNMENT program, then Americans would have adapted. The market would have worked. Kids would go into Comp Sci, adults would retrain and learn.

But this GOVERNMENT program discouraged that. American students knew that Indians were being imported to do these jobs, and avoided the Comp Sci major. Companies and hiring managers preferred imported workers, which once again, discouraged Americans from retraining, and prevented them from being hired. And eventually, a crony cartel blocked Americans from getting those jobs.

THAT IS NOT FREE MARKET!

"Learn to code." "Best and brightest". What a crock of f*cking sh~t!
 
OK, you may have missed my point. Let me clarify.

You can buy a TV from China. Your TV from China will not need, or compete with me for:

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support

But when a worker is imported, they then do require, and compete for:

- A job
- Housing
- Food
- Transportation, vehicles, roads
- Medical care
- Education
- Govt support


Let me further clarify:

Your TV will not be driving on the road creating traffic jams. Your TV will not be bidding against me to buy a house. Your TV will not be taking up space in the Emergency Room. Your TV will not be taking up seats at the public school. Your TV will not need social security or any other form of government welfare. Your TV will chain import all of the other TVs on it's assembly line, and then need all of the above for themselves.

I agree that national import policy and immigration policy cannot be the same; I'm not arguing for retarded-laissez-faire here. On immigration, I think I'm pretty much a Hoppean -- people are free (by birth) to go anywhere they are welcome to go (but not free to enter any place that doesn't want them), and the smart countries will have a completely secure border, both because they properly man it, and because they will not have socialistic free-stuff-giveaways in the form of government welfare.

As for the factor of scarcity, it depends on how the particular infrastructure in question is being managed. If it's publicly managed, then you'll have to fund government bureaucrats to handle forward planning, including immigration forecasts. If it's privately managed, that's where the magical invisible hand comes in... they'll figure it out. Gov't support should not even be on your list of things, and of the others, only transportation is widely held to be an unsolvable problem by the market, even in the age of Space-X catching rockets out of the air because, you know, Muh Roads...

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... Gov't support should not even be on your list of things, and of the others...

So I am supposed to ignore the government funded senior citizen centers, that are filled to the brim with the parents and grand-parents of recent Chinese immigrants? People who have never paid or contributed, and never will? Immigrants bring their parents in, who immediately go on the government dole. It's well known. It doesn't matter if the immigrant is from India, China, Egypt or Iran, they all do this.
 
There was a government created program, to solve a government created "crisis", and you are still talking about "free market"?

My point is simple. Without the H1B GOVERNMENT program, then Americans would have adapted. The market would have worked. Kids would go into Comp Sci, adults would retrain and learn.

But this GOVERNMENT program discouraged that. American students knew that Indians were being imported to do these jobs, and avoided the Comp Sci major. Companies and hiring managers preferred imported workers, which once again, discouraged Americans from retraining, and prevented them from being hired. And eventually, a crony cartel blocked Americans from getting those jobs.

THAT IS NOT FREE MARKET!

"Learn to code." "Best and brightest". What a crock of f*cking sh~t!

*sigh -- we are having a failure to communicate.

Yes, H1B is a government program. I don't care about H1B in itself, I'm using it as a synonym for economic immigration, aka foreign hiring and naturalization. Naturalization of economic immigrants, by whatever name you call it, is something the Federal government must handle, because that's its assigned job in the Constitution. So, "shut down H1B" means "stop all economic immigration", which is Federal tyranny -- lots of American companies will be prevented from hiring qualified candidates from other countries, which is ridiculous.

Imagine if oil-well fires could only be fought by local fire departments, by law. You'd need a hot-shot crew every 25 miles in oil territory. But there aren't that many oil-well fires that need to be put out. So hot-shot crews are inherently cross-border, because they live off of rare accident situations, and when there is such an accident, their skills are in primo demand. In your world, foreign hot-shot crews can't be called up to help in a domestic oil-well fire because MURIKA. That's just protectionism. And it's tyranny. And it's the opposite of everything Ron Paul has taught and stands for. Dr. Paul is not a Hoppean like me, but he advocates both strong borders, and unrestricted trade by Americans with foreigners they want to do business with, i.e. no import/export cronyism.
 
So I am supposed to ignore the government funded senior citizen centers, that are filled to the brim with the parents and grand-parents of recent Chinese immigrants? People who have never paid or contributed, and never will? Immigrants bring their parents in, who immediately go on the government dole. It's well known. It doesn't matter if the immigrant is from India, China, Egypt or Iran, they all do this.

The solution to those kinds of problems is to get the government out of the business of "charity", in all its forms. That was formerly the domain of the church and community, who were doing swimmingly until FDR heisted everybody's gold and instituted the New Deal, aka the Screw Deal. Constitutionally, it should not be on the list of things that affect us collectively. It was a solved problem until it was broken by modern "democatic" socialism.
 
That is absolutely true. In California, every Jan 1st, a whole slough of new laws go into effect, many revolving around employment.

But no one is missing that, it's just not very relevant other than being an over arching principle when talking about a specific issue. Many regulations and laws can be avoided. Businesses do not have to import workers and go through a visa process. They can avoid that. They can't avoid the myriad of other laws that keep being piled on, with no complaints from anyone.

It's fine to jump up and say "hey, we already have too many laws" every time a new law or modification is proposed, but that would only have an impact if there was enough opposition to the law in the first place.

I think you're vastly underestimating how weak the economy is. We're probably in the biggest bubble in history. We've got 36 trillion in debt and we're borrowing 3 trillion a year and the interest payments on the debt have spiked to over a trillion. Cheap money is the only thing keeping most businesses solvent. When that runs out we're going to be in a depression. The last thing we need is to pile on more expenses by forcing them to only hire americans. You guys act like these businesses have some sort of unlimited source of revenue.

Just wait. I can't see this bubble lasting much longer.
 
I think you're vastly underestimating how weak the economy is. We're probably in the biggest bubble in history. We've got 36 trillion in debt and we're borrowing 3 trillion a year and the interest payments on the debt have spiked to over a trillion. Cheap money is the only thing keeping most businesses solvent. When that runs out we're going to be in a depression. The last thing we need is to pile on more expenses by forcing them to only hire americans. You guys act like these businesses have some sort of unlimited source of revenue.

Just wait. I can't see this bubble lasting much longer.

It will be exceptionally hard for govt and their cronies to keep the mantra "Jobs Americans won't do" or "shortage of good workers" going when 30% of the population is living in tents and standing in soup lines.
 
America became great on the backs of 300 years of European immigration.

Then immigrants started coming from all around the globe, and the country basically immediately went to shit.

Coincidence?
 
I have first-hand experience with H1-B system "drama". I was "questioned" during a DHS I immigration investigation in which they laid out various people associated with a family-owned business I was connected with. Essentially a lot of red-dot Indians working here on H1's. People who were presenting themselves as I.T. consultants and accountants, who were in fact just working cashiers in convenience stores and smoke-shops where they were often just temporary workers (5 years on H-1). Lying on federal forms. H-1's don't get handed out for "cashiers" and H-1's must be renewed every six years.

Anyway, I thought DHS was going to bust the whole ring and send them home. They had detailed files on not only every ringleader, but every cashier. How long they've been here, how they were connected, photographs, business documentation. They knew more than I did.

Anyway, TLDR; they all are still here and DHS didn't deport a prosecute a single one.

People don't realize I think what it means that there are MILLIONS of these people here. The whole thing is very monolithic and controlled. Not only on the H1-B side of things, but also political refugees (like Cuban immigrants). All these NGO's and Catholic charities, et al work hand in hand bribing these other governments to move people where they want. DHS doesn't have the manpower to fight it all, they focus on terrorists and big fish.

TPTB do not care about trailer park people and their anachronistic concepts of what this country is supposed to look like.
 
Anyway, I thought DHS was going to bust the whole ring and send them home. They had detailed files on not only every ringleader, but every cashier. How long they've been here, how they were connected, photographs, business documentation. They knew more than I did.

Anyway, TLDR; they all are still here and DHS didn't deport a prosecute a single one.

Ah so the H1B program is also a government jobs welfare program, nice.

Another reason to get rid of it.
 

https://x.com/EricRWeinstein/status/1873803222017859819

PS: I don't agree with Vivek here. Traditional American culture is the 600-pound gorilla of hard-work, economic efficiency and productivity. Nobody else at any time or place is even a close second. What we've lost in America 2024... is America circa 1960 or 1940 or 1920, etc. Whatever their other mistakes, our parents and grandparents were a bunch of ass-busting SOBs. That's not the sum of our former greatness, but it's part of it. The solution is not to become like all the other second-bests out there... the solution is to bring back a revival of what was lost. And my personal view is that anyone from any other part of the world who wants to Make America Great Again should be welcome to come here and participate (after naturalizing). And yes, if you want to join, you have to be able to keep up, because Americans don't work like French bureaucrats. This is a worldwide movement...
 
PS: I don't agree with Vivek here. Traditional American culture is the 600-pound gorilla of hard-work, economic efficiency and productivity. Nobody else at any time or place is even a close second. What we've lost in America 2024... is America circa 1960 or 1940 or 1920, etc. Whatever their other mistakes, our parents and grandparents were a bunch of ass-busting SOBs. That's not the sum of our former greatness, but it's part of it. The solution is not to become like all the other second-bests out there... the solution is to bring back a revival of what was lost. And my personal view is that anyone from any other part of the world who wants to Make America Great Again should be welcome to come here and participate (after naturalizing). And yes, if you want to join, you have to be able to keep up, because Americans don't work like French bureaucrats. This is a worldwide movement...

Any attempt to do that will be met with this:

GgE5Sj-WsAAUDZw
 
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