Miscarriage = baby; Abortion = "mass of cells"

[jmdrake]

I addressed this in another thread, but I felt it deserved its own thread. I'm sick and tired of the hypocrisy in our society that pretends the humanity of an unborn child depends on whether its "wanted" or not. My wife and I lost our first child about halfway into the pregnancy. I was firmly "pro choice" at the time. I didn't understand why my wife was so devastated. Then I read the books she was given from the hospital. One was called "the loneliest grief." All of these books emphasized how we had really "lost a child" and that it was "okay to grieve because its the same as if you had lost any other child." I'm sure any public figure who told a woman who had a miscarriage to "get over it" because she "just lost a parasite" or a "tumor" or a "mass of cells" would be vilified in the media. And yet....I hear these terms used to describe aborted babies. I hear people falsely claim that if you believe an unborn child is a human being that must be because of "religious reasons". Well my religion hasn't changed. My understanding of what happens inside the womb prior to birth has. My understanding of the hypocrisy of a society that treats children differently based on whether or not they are "wanted" has changed. Ron Paul put it well when he talked about how as an obstetrician he could be held criminally liable for harming an unborn child....as long as that child was "wanted".

Now I know all of the arguments of the other side. That we "shouldn't enslave women for 9 months" or that there will be "thousands or millions of back alley abortions" if Roe v Wade is overturned (an inflated claim IMO that ignores excess deaths of women from legal abortions) and that we "don't want pregnancy police" etc. I even respect some of those arguments. But I have no respect for the arguments put forward by those who say that there is no reason, other than religion, to believe a fetus is actually a human being who's life should be respected and, at least to some degree, protected. That position displays either extreme ignorance or dishonesty. I'm not mad at those who have it. I used to be extremely ignorant on the subject. I just ask, if you have that position, to go to any obstetrician worth his/her salt and ask what counsel is given to those who have had a miscarriage. You may be surprised by the answer. I certainly was.

 

[cheapseats]

Howzabout the Liberty Moovement grooms an Independent candidate for a bid in 2016, in case Rand's candidacy goes the way of his LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION father?

 

[jmdrake]

Howzabout the Liberty Moovement grooms an Independent candidate for a bid in 2016, in case Rand's candidacy goes the way of his LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION father?

Howzabout you forget about politics for a moment and try to actually educate yourself about miscarriages?

 

[Todd]

Howzabout you forget about politics for a moment and try to actually educate yourself about miscarriages?

+1

 

[cheapseats]

Howzabout you forget about politics for a moment...

Why? Because I disagree with you?

...and try to actually educate yourself about miscarriages?

Why? Because it interests you?

By contrast, there IS good cause to groom an Independent candidate...have a PLAN B...in case Rand loses the GOP nomination, RIGHT?

 

[Smart3]

I mean you no disrespect, but I find it completely ridiculous for people to say they lost a child that never existed - it had no birthday, no memories, no name, no clothes and you didn't even hold it on your arms. Miscarriages (abortions) are a common occurrence, and if one believes in a god then one must also believe that God chooses which fetuses survive and which do not. In your case, your first attempt resulted in failure - and it was God's will.

Not sure if you tried again, but I assume you did? I was always taught growing up in a fundie environment that miscarriages were a blessing from God, meant to strengthen a person and lead them to either be better biological parents or to adopt.

 

[FriedChicken]

Why? Because I disagree with you?




Why? Because it interests you?

By contrast, there IS good cause to groom an Independent candidate...have a PLAN B...in case Rand loses the GOP nomination, RIGHT?

I don't think the OP meant for this to be a Rand discussion, otherwise I'm sure it would be in Rand's sub-forum.

PS,
what I see on my screen is different from what I see in my text box after I clicked 'reply w/ quote' ... just you just edit your post or something?

 

[jmdrake]

Why? Because I disagree with you?




Why? Because it interests you?

By contrast, there IS good cause to groom an Independent candidate...have a PLAN B...in case Rand loses the GOP nomination, RIGHT?

I care not whether you disagree with me. And if you chose to remain willfully ignorant, that's on you.

 

[FriedChicken]

I mean you no disrespect, but I find it completely ridiculous for people to say they lost a child that never existed - it had no birthday, no memories, no name, no clothes and you didn't even hold it on your arms. Miscarriages (abortions) are a common occurrence, and if one believes in a god then one must also believe that God chooses which fetuses survive and which do not. In your case, your first attempt resulted in failure - and it was God's will.

Not sure if you tried again, but I assume you did? I was always taught growing up in a fundie environment that miscarriages were a blessing from God, meant to strengthen a person and lead them to either be better biological parents or to adopt.

wow ... I would bet 1 million dollars that you're not a woman who has ever been pregnant. Neither am I but my wife is due in 5 to 6 weeks - if she lost the baby now she would completely devastated - and no, it wasn't planned, we weren't trying (in fact I remember trying to NOT get pregnant).
The fact that she never got to hold it would contribute to her being more depressed by it, not less.

 

[cheapseats]

I don't think the OP meant for this to be a Rand discussion, otherwise I'm sure it would be in Rand's sub-forum.

Anti Abortion threads ABOUND. There are more threads on Abortion than on Afghanistan and Syria COMBINED. Y'know, where LIVING people are being killed.

"Social Conservatives" are HARPING on abortion, and it IS hurting the fractious Liberty Moovement.

 

[jmdrake]

No disrespect taken. But I think you missed my point. My post had nothing to do with "growing up in a fundie environment." As I said, I was firmly pro choice well into adulthood and didn't understand why my wife was so broken up by the miscarriage until I read the book she was given by the hospital and her obstetrician. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that this same obstetrician performed abortions. (I'm going by the law of averages here as most have and we didn't specifically seek out a religious obstetrician.) I'm making a general observation that non-religious society treats babies who die from miscarriages differently from those who die from abortion. If you take the "In either case it's no biggie" position, then at least you are being consistent. Most of the rest of society, religious or otherwise, is not. That's my point.

I mean you no disrespect, but I find it completely ridiculous for people to say they lost a child that never existed - it had no birthday, no memories, no name, no clothes and you didn't even hold it on your arms. Miscarriages (abortions) are a common occurrence, and if one believes in a god then one must also believe that God chooses which fetuses survive and which do not. In your case, your first attempt resulted in failure - and it was God's will.

Not sure if you tried again, but I assume you did? I was always taught growing up in a fundie environment that miscarriages were a blessing from God, meant to strengthen a person and lead them to either be better biological parents or to adopt.

 

[erowe1]

I mean you no disrespect, but I find it completely ridiculous for people to say they lost a child that never existed - it had no birthday, no memories, no name, no clothes and you didn't even hold it on your arms. Miscarriages (abortions) are a common occurrence, and if one believes in a god then one must also believe that God chooses which fetuses survive and which do not. In your case, your first attempt resulted in failure - and it was God's will.

Not sure if you tried again, but I assume you did? I was always taught growing up in a fundie environment that miscarriages were a blessing from God, meant to strengthen a person and lead them to either be better biological parents or to adopt.

I don't see why it's being God's will should make a difference. Everyone dies at precisely the time that God determined they would, whether in the womb or at 100. And, yes, we should find some consolation in knowing that God has a good purpose for all things. But that doesn't mean we don't grieve over the deaths of loved ones.

 

[Smart3]

No disrespect taken. But I think you missed my point. My post had nothing to do with "growing up in a fundie environment." As I said, I was firmly pro choice well into adulthood and didn't understand why my wife was so broken up by the miscarriage until I read the book she was given by the hospital and her obstetrician. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that this same obstetrician performed abortions. (I'm going by the law of averages here as most have and we didn't specifically seek out a religious obstetrician.) I'm making a general observation that non-religious society treats babies who die from miscarriages differently from those who die from abortion. If you take the "In either case it's no biggie" position, then at least you are being consistent. Most of the rest of society, religious or otherwise, is not. That's my point.

I understand. I also dislike the hypocrisy. A bit like how people are OK with pornography but not OK with prostitution.

I'm curious why this book changed your perspective, it had to be from a religious perspective, as I've never heard of a non-religious grieving book impacting someone's worldview.

In the extremely unlikely event this happens to a loved one of mine, I'd tell them the same thing I told you.

___

We need to stop calling them miscarriages and call them what they really are - involuntary abortions.

 

[Brett85]

Howzabout the Liberty Moovement grooms an Independent candidate for a bid in 2016, in case Rand's candidacy goes the way of his LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION father?

You act like a troll when you constantly criticize Ron in his own forum.

 

[RockEnds]

I've seen those things that hospitals give out for miscarriages. I'm sorry, but I think they're beyond creepy. I had a miscarriage at about 3 1/2 months gestation. It was in an emergency room, and they didn't send me the post "care" package. I'm glad.

I think it would be really difficult to live in a place and time where it wasn't unusual to lose multiple young children to disease. I do genealogy, and when I'm mapping a cemetery, I always feel sad when I see the old gravestones for three or four children of the same family who all died within days of each other. I can't imagine the will power it took for those parents to wake up the next morning. But they did it. We're here because they did it. I have three live children and one early term miscarriage. I count my lucky stars. Some of those old timers lost more kids in a week than I've birthed in a lifetime. I just don't see it as the same.

 

[Nirvikalpa]

Miscarriages occur mostly within the first trimester, although of course they can occur during the second and third trimester as well. 10-25% of all pregnancies will end in miscarriage, and some of those miscarriages will occur so early that a woman believes it is her menstrual flow - this is called a chemical pregnancy, and it's around 50-75% of those miscarriages. But they occur mostly in the first trimester due to the body recognizing something is usually not right with the growing embryo - most spontaneously aborted pregnancies tend to have either genetic or other medical abnormalities which would prevent the embryo from dividing/growing properly in utero.

There are also different types of miscarriages a woman can experience, from an ectopic pregnancy and molar pregnancy, to an incomplete miscarriage and a missed miscarriage.

There have been studied that show most miscarriages affect male embryos, and the mother's immune cells can indeed see a male embryo as "foreign," and work it's hardest to expel it. Women who have had male children do indeed, more often than not, have immunity cells within their body that were created to act upon their male children in utero, as well as have more pregnancy-related complications with pregnancies after giving birth to a boy:

Fetal cells can cross the placenta during pregnancy and male DNA is detectable in the maternal circulation both during and after an ongoing pregnancy and can persist in the circulation up to 27 years post-partum (Bianchi et al., 1996, 2001).

Prior birth of boys is associated with a decrease in birthweight, an increased risk of stillbirth and preterm birth, and reduced reproductive success among subsequently born children in the background population. These findings support the hypothesis of non-tolerated maternal immune responses against H-Y-antigens as a possible mechanism behind SRM and also some so far unexplained obstetric complications in the background population.

It also remains to be explored how or whether the initially specific anti-H-Y response suggested to develop after the birth of boys in SRM may also affects subsequent female fetuses. Although male fetuses seem to be at the highest risk of demise after a previous birth of a boy in SRM, female fetuses also seem to be in a higher than normal risk of miscarriage.

In truth, much more can go wrong with a developing male embryo than a female embryo.

Some cool studies:

Male fetuses are particularly affected by maternal alloimmunization to D antigen: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Secondary recurrent miscarriage and H-Y immunity: http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/4/558.long

--------

So, there's a little science behind miscarriage. Before I get called a "sexist," and green73 quotes me with his usual "you seem to have a low opinion of men, why do you stick around?" I just want to point out that autoimmunity was a subject I studied for my honors thesis, which I coupled with my degree - reproductive biology, so it's just random knowledge I remember that I thought I'd share.

As for the emotional aspect of abortion... I can't honestly have an opinion, and I would feel wrong to have one. I have never been pregnant or lost a pregnancy. I do know some women take their miscarriages better than others. I know some women are extremely distraught after a miscarriage (I've had those EMS calls), and I know there are women who believe it to be God's will, and while they are sad about it, they work through it. Anyway, I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know the "right" way to handle a miscarriage.

 

[The Free Hornet]

Now I know all of the arguments of the other side.

No, you don't.

1) the anti-abortion movement is now Obamacare - congrats "Mission Accomplished"

2) I don't believe in the choice to kill a human but in the fallibility of government and force (my "pro choice" is nothing like your faux choice past)

3) the pro-life movement has near zero appetite to prosecute murder as murder and the liberty minded do not rush to the defense of increased regulatory authority of the medical markets

4) the stats do not seem to support your prohibitions as effective - if we could reduce murders, of adults, by eliminating laws against murder, I would seriously consider it

 

[The Free Hornet]

I'm making a general observation that non-religious society treats babies who die from miscarriages differently from those who die from abortion.

Not true, IMO. My family and relatives are extremely Catholic with few exceptions. They've held a FULL funeral for a miscarriage (long, complicated story). In your world, the DA would have to clear this as a natural miscarriage or something. They'd exume the little guy's casket looking for evidence of foul play.

If you take the "In either case it's no biggie" position, then at least you are being consistent. Most of the rest of society, religious or otherwise, is not. That's my point.

Neither is no biggie in my non-religious opinion. Wanting and not getting can be just as bad just as not wanting and killing.

Regardless, you commit the fallacy of thinking through this issue emotionally and trying to come to the right decision and enforcing that with government force. My position is that the mother is in best position to defend a fetus, not the government. If I'm wrong, that she ought not be a mother, then the problem is largely self correcting.

Here is another,

5) Not supporting government where it hasn't been effective historically, deeply interferes in our personal lives, and the issue itself creates artificial divisions (congrats)

Not a single reason of mine regarding abortion has to do with some 'clump of cells' arguments. Why YOU ever thought that way or would ascribe that position to others is beyond belief.

 

[jmdrake]

I understand. I also dislike the hypocrisy. A bit like how people are OK with pornography but not OK with prostitution.

I'm curious why this book changed your perspective, it had to be from a religious perspective, as I've never heard of a non-religious grieving book impacting someone's worldview.

In the extremely unlikely event this happens to a loved one of mine, I'd tell them the same thing I told you.

___

We need to stop calling them miscarriages and call them what they really are - involuntary abortions.

The book was not at all religious. It didn't mention God or spirituality or anything of the sort. I'll have to look in our library to see if I can find it. What changed for me is that I couldn't understand how the same medical profession that consoles a woman who has an abortion by saying "Well it wasn't really a child" would turn around and console a woman who had a miscarriage by saying "It really was a child and ignore the people who tell you otherwise."

Oh, something else that I thought about. While you are correct that a pre born baby has "never had a birthday", that doesn't mean that he/she hasn't bonded with both parents. Quite the to contrary, science shows that in utero infants can recognize not only their mother's voice, but their father's as well! Some pregnant moms not only talk, sing and play music to their children prior to birth, but even get responses. I've heard moms say "I told him to move because he was in an uncomfortable position for me...and he moved." Coincidence? Maybe, but I think not. So there very well may be memories, a name etc. The child may not have been "held in arms" but have you ever had a pregnant mom tell you "Come touch my baby?" I have. And without getting to much into the nature of God's will, I agree with ewore1's point that anything you say about a miscarriage and God's will could also be said regarding the death of anyone else. Yes, we had other children. But I don't see that as any different from parents who lose their only child or children in a car accident having other children. Yes you're happy for the ones you have while remembering the ones you lost.

 

[The Free Hornet]

Howzabout the Liberty Moovement grooms an Independent candidate for a bid in 2016, in case Rand's candidacy goes the way of his LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION father?

Human life does begin at conception. It isn't canine life and previously, neither sperm nor egg alone were a full human blueprint (from the chromosome perpsective, right - I understand other variables are in play).

Conception is an important milestone regardless of your beliefs on abortion or religion.