[Milei WINS!] Javier Milei, Austrian econ. prof. & ancap, runs for president of Argentina

[John-G]

I'd be fine with that, too.

Workers' control is participation in the management of factories and other commercial enterprises by the people who work there. It has been variously advocated by anarchists, socialists, communists, social democrats, distributists and Christian democrats, and has been combined with various socialist and mixed economy systems.

Workers controlling the means of production. Hmm, which group advocate such ideas? You know, it wouldn't kill u to admit maybe just maybe he is misguided in this one idea

 

[John-G]

Would there be a corresponding tax refund for taxpayers?

While that may make sense for a member of Congress (or government) who sees it as a source of (one-time) revenue, it essentially rewards government for privatizing in the first place. It’s like telling the mafia to go ahead and sell all of it’s stolen goods, and keep the money.

Yes, it should definitely come with a tax cut for the citizens. Considering how he plans to slash govt spending on top of privatization, the money saved from it should result in a surplus that would allow the govt to easily cut taxes. And I always prefer tax cuts to rebates.

 

[ClaytonB]

If AOC would have stated that he wanted to give say a state-run hospital to the staff, everybody here would condemn her for it. But somehow because this comes from Milei, there are people who are coming to defend him.

Personally, I wouldn't really care what AOC wants in that case. Parceling the airline out to its employees as shareholders is a reasonable solution to the problem because they have been the caretakers of the airline. I don't think this can be done in an "egalitarian" way, you would need to use a metric like years worked, rank, and other factors to hand out shares pro rata. And, you would need to establish a board, and choose a chair, CEO, etc. just as with any other corporation, and there's no reason these individuals would necessarily need to come from the current ranks of the airline, in fact, you probably want to decapitate the current leadership, otherwise, they will just bring all the old bureaucratic rot into the new "privatized" airline. That's just my opinion, and there may be superior models out there on how to privatize it. But making the employees pro rata stockholders is not arbitrary/baseless, nor is it "redistribution" except in some absurdly pedantic definition where there would be no non-redistributive solution anyway.

 

[ClaytonB]

Workers controlling the means of production. Hmm, which group advocate such ideas? You know, it wouldn't kill u to admit maybe just maybe he is misguided in this one idea

But it's not "workers controlling the means of production"... it's privatization. Once the shares have been disbursed (one time event), that's it, you're done. They can be sold down the road to whoever wants to buy them.

The idea of sending "every Argentine" a 5 pesos kickback on the sale of the airline doesn't make any sense, because you're chopping the turkey into dust and giving everyone one speck of dust. That's silly. Someone has to own it after it's privatized. That will either be a highest bidder, or you can make it employee-owned. There are plenty of employee-owned corporations in the US, and this has nothing to do with Marxism, it's just one way of organizing ownership/control of a private organization. In this case, a good argument can be made that the people who should be given ownership are those who are currently working there because caretaking is the closest thing to ownership in the situation of a publicly-owned company.

 

[Occam's Banana]

If AOC would have stated that he wanted to give say a state-run hospital to the staff, everybody here would condemn her for it.

I wouldn't.

(Of course, there's no reason to think AOC would actually do such a thing in the first place, which is why your lame attempt to equate Milei with her is so asinine.)

But somehow because this comes from Milei, there are people who are coming to defend him.

That's right.

Cope harder.

Workers' control is participation in the management of factories and other commercial enterprises by the people who work there. It has been variously advocated by anarchists, socialists, communists, social democrats, distributists and Christian democrats, and has been combined with various socialist and mixed economy systems.

Workers controlling the means of production. Hmm, which group advocate such ideas? You know, it wouldn't kill u to admit maybe just maybe he is misguided in this one idea

State ownership of capital property is one of the defining characteristics of socialism.

It is ridiculous that someone who is divesting the state of state-owned assets is being accused of being some kind of "socialist".

 

[acptulsa]

While that may make sense for a member of Congress (or government) who sees it as a source of (one-time) revenue, it essentially rewards government for privatizing in the first place. It’s like telling the mafia to go ahead and sell all of it’s stolen goods, and keep the money.

Exactly. Exactly right. And when faced with the injustice of the whole nationalized airline debacle and the drain it was on the public's resources, a revolutionary may have attitudes at home which say, we bought it, let us keep it and run it in service to the economy we're struggling to rebuild. He may be or facing a difficult situation if the high bidder turns out to be a dealer in used airplanes, and this link to the wider world disappears.

I don't have enough information to judge him for this. Not near enough. I don't know what his realistic options are under these unique circumstances. I do know privatization by any method isn't socialism, whether the workers control the means of production or not. Volkswagen was given to its workers and that's when it ceased to be Nazi.

And I wouldn't be averse to AOC disbursing things, either, if by some miracle she didn't give it to a donor or relative or such.

 

[Swordsmyth]

You: "Non-negotiable means force will be used if diplomacy fails."

Me: ""[... T]he assertion that 'non-negotiable means force will be used if diplomacy fails' simply does not follow."

MIlei (in the second article you linked to ; see above): “It is clear that the war option is not a solution."

QED

Just like all Presidential campaigns, all wars are denied until they are launched.
But there are always hints and saber rattling.

[post=7200931]
LOL

By the same logic (read: "excuse for half-assed, piss-poor reportage"), "everyone in their country knows" he won the election - yet for some reason, the author &/or editor apparently felt it necessary to explicitly state that he had done so (while omitting any source for or citation of the statement the article was supposed to be about).

​

And that's why I provided the link to an article with a source.

You will let me know when the "withered and degraded" Brits tuck tail & flee from the mighty Argentine navy, won't you?

BTW - just out of curiosity, which do you suppose will happen first: Argentina's invasion of the Falklands, or their invasion of Russia?

I won't have to let you know, the news will do that.
Nor is it a sure thing that Argentina would win, they just have a much better chance now.

Russia will never happen, the Falklands may very well and the saber is being rattled even if it never happens either.

 

[Swordsmyth]

The jury is not in yet, but another piece of evidence to keep track of has dropped:



In the blink of an eye, Argentine President-elect Javier Milei pivoted away from advisers advocating for his most dramatic campaign promises, choosing Wall Street veterans closer to former leader Mauricio Macri.

Milei’s boldest campaign proposals — dollarization and closing the central bank — appear at least on hold for now amid a staffing shake up. Milei distanced himself from his dollarization guru, Emilio Ocampo, and on Friday another hawkish adviser from early in the campaign, Carlos Rodriguez, announced on X he was departing. Milei had repeatedly said he’d name Ocampo to lead Argentina’s central bank, though he reiterated Friday that closing the institution was “non-negotiable.”

In their place, Milei’s economic team is being led by Luis Caputo and Demian Reidel, two former Wall Street veterans who held key posts during Macri’s presidency from 2015 to 2019.

Local media also reported Milei would appoint his former rival during the election, Patricia Bullrich, as security minister, a post she held in Macri’s government too.

Milei also softened his stance on China and Brazil after threatening to cut diplomatic ties on the campaign trail. He even thanked Xi Jinping for a congratulatory letter, invited Brazil’s Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva to his inauguration and took a call from Pope Francis, who he’d lambasted in the past. Even though Milei called the Chinese government “an assassin,” his foreign policy adviser, Diana Mondino, said the media over-blew the comments.

More at: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-cheers-milei-swaps-145315547.html

 

[acptulsa]

Just like all Presidential campaigns, all wars are denied until they are launched.
But there are always hints and saber rattling.



And that's why I provided the link to an article with a source.

I won't have to let you know, the news will do that.
Nor is it a sure thing that Argentina would win, they just have a much better chance now.

Russia will never happen, the Falklands may very well and the saber is being rattled even if it never happens either.

A sabre is being rattled.

Do you need a safe space, snowflake?

Argentina isn't starting any shooting wars any time soon. News flash: They're broke.

The jury is not in yet, but another piece of evidence to keep track of has dropped:

Another piece of evidence that all the skeptics and kneejerk naysayers were wrong to call Milei a stooge of the Fed.

 

[John-G]

Personally, I wouldn't really care what AOC wants in that case. Parceling the airline out to its employees as shareholders is a reasonable solution to the problem because they have been the caretakers of the airline. I don't think this can be done in an "egalitarian" way, you would need to use a metric like years worked, rank, and other factors to hand out shares pro rata. And, you would need to establish a board, and choose a chair, CEO, etc. just as with any other corporation, and there's no reason these individuals would necessarily need to come from the current ranks of the airline, in fact, you probably want to decapitate the current leadership, otherwise, they will just bring all the old bureaucratic rot into the new "privatized" airline. That's just my opinion, and there may be superior models out there on how to privatize it. But making the employees pro rata stockholders is not arbitrary/baseless, nor is it "redistribution" except in some absurdly pedantic definition where there would be no non-redistributive solution anyway.

I disagree with u on this, i believe gifting taxpayer property to a small group of taxpayers is actually wrong. Yes, the state is bad and evil but state-owned properties should be returned to the people. My issue is that the man probably doesn't know how its supposed to be returned but because he is such an overconfident loudmouth, he says the first thing that comes into his head.

Privatizing airlines has been done successfully by dozens of countries, it's usually popular because most airlines have very low return on capital or lose money. I am actually hoping, he will do a 180 once the thinking people in his cabinet talks to him. Heck, it was done to the same airline in the 2000s when Iberia bought majority shares of it. He can do it this time but now sell 100% of their stake in the airline.

I am looking forward to his trip to the US and Israel. The man needs to visit his superior before taking his oath. Anarcho capitalist my arse.

 

[ClaytonB]

I disagree with u on this, i believe gifting taxpayer property to a small group of taxpayers is actually wrong. Yes, the state is bad and evil but state-owned properties should be returned to the people. My issue is that the man probably doesn't know how its supposed to be returned but because he is such an overconfident loudmouth, he says the first thing that comes into his head.

That's your opinion. According to the web, there are about 50 million Argentines. Let's suppose that Argentine Airlines is worth $1B (generous). That's $20 per citizen. A $20 kickback to every citizen is silly and this is exactly the kind of "fair proposal" that an opponent of privatization in Argentina would espouse, as a reductio argument against privatization.

Once again, while the Argentine citizens are the victims here, that's not Milei's fault. They cannot be made whole in accordance to how much they have been harmed -- not Milei's fault. Yes, disbursing the shares to the employees is an act of redistribution, but it's a sort of "least of all evils". There may be superior proposals out there that I just haven't encountered, but yours certainly is not one of them.

I am looking forward to his trip to the US and Israel. The man needs to visit his superior before taking his oath. Anarcho capitalist my arse.

Time will indeed tell. If he's faking, it will show up soon enough. And as I said above, I will happily meme-bomb his betrayal, just as happily as I now meme in support of him...

 

[John-G]

That's your opinion. According to the web, there are about 50 million Argentines. Let's suppose that Argentine Airlines is worth $1B (generous). That's $20 per citizen. A $20 kickback to every citizen is silly and this is exactly the kind of "fair proposal" that an opponent of privatization in Argentina would espouse, as a reductio argument against privatization.

Once again, while the Argentine citizens are the victims here, that's not Milei's fault. They cannot be made whole in accordance to how much they have been harmed -- not Milei's fault. Yes, disbursing the shares to the employees is an act of redistribution, but it's a sort of "least of all evils". There may be superior proposals out there that I just haven't encountered, but yours certainly is not one of them.



Time will indeed tell. If he's faking, it will show up soon enough. And as I said above, I will happily meme-bomb his betrayal, just as happily as I now meme in support of him...

Let's assume 25 million Argentinians are taxpayers, that would mean giving every taxpayer a $40 tax cut. In addition, this will take away a most likely money losing institution away from the necks of ordinary Argentinians. No matter, how insignificant you think it is, this is a win for ordinary people. Gifting it to a few union workers is NOT the capitalist way of doing it. It is in fact what a socialist would do.

My main reason for these posts is just to pump the breaks on the praise this man is getting. Like he is the 2nd coming of Ron Paul. He is doesn't mind telling off TPTB on how he will destroy their economic schemes and destroy their central banks but when it comes down to it, he is very pragmatic of maintaining a strong relationship with The Fed and Israel.

I think when the real one will show up, he wouldn't be as bombastic as this one. He would probably take the same positions as Rand, be a little pragmatic while hinting he might go liberty mode when he gets into office. But again, lets hope I am wrong on this.

 

[ClaytonB]

Let's assume 25 million Argentinians are taxpayers, that would mean giving every taxpayer a $40 tax cut. In addition, this will take away a most likely money losing institution away from the necks of ordinary Argentinians. No matter, how insignificant you think it is, this is a win for ordinary people.

But you're missing the larger point -- it's still an act of redistribution, it's just a really shitty way of doing the redistribution because the proceeds from the sale are diluted so far as to be effectively useless. Those just entering the workforce are being reimbursed far too much, and those who are just about to retire and have paid into the system for decades and decades are being shorted. In short, it's a slap in the face to those who have been most extorted. Some of them may feel equally slapped in the face by a disbursement of shares to the current employees but, as I said, nothing can be done about this (there's no actual way to make people whole in a "fair" way) and it's simply not Milei's doing, nor his fault.

Gifting it to a few union workers is NOT the capitalist way of doing it. It is in fact what a socialist would do.

Who cares about the "capitalist" way? What matters is whether it's a sensible public-policy action, or not. Milei is not the chief economist of Argentina, he's the President of Argentina. His job is to act in the interests of the Argentine people as best he can. Privatizing the public airline is one of the most obvious way he can do that. The details of how the airline is privatized is something he will have to work out with his own team, and negotiate with the various parties who are going to lobby for their own agenda in all of this. Even in Argentina, being President does not give him unilateral power to simply enact whatever whim strikes his fancy. The ultimate outcome will be the result of "game theory", as the zoomers call it.

The closest thing to ownership of a socialized asset is whoever is taking care of it right now. Thus, disbursing ownership shares to the employees makes sense. If there is a strong risk that the union could end up wresting controlling stakes in the company, then perhaps you would need to take safeguards against that bad outcome. I'm not sure how to handle that detail, but I'm confident there is a solution. Chopping the roast pig into 50 million bits of dust and mailing one speck of dust out to each Argentine is a silly and insulting proposal whose only real function is to act as a reductio ad absurdum argument against privatization.

My main reason for these posts is just to pump the breaks on the praise this man is getting.

Yes, it's amazing how you fair-weather posters suddenly materialize out of the aether whenever there is a geopolitical event with potentially material consequences to US imperial politics. Truly amazing...

Like he is the 2nd coming of Ron Paul.

Like Ron Paul, he's spitting the unadulterated, unfiltered, uncensored TRUTH. Just like the difference between fool's gold and gold... if you know, you know. You know it when you see it, there's just no way to "fake it" and wag the proverbial dog. The controlled-opp never but never speaks unfiltered truth. They'll speak half the truth. They love truthy slogans and witticisms. But they never speak the truth at length because they cannot... this would be Satan casting out Satan.

He is doesn't mind telling off TPTB on how he will destroy their economic schemes and destroy their central banks but when it comes down to it, he is very pragmatic of maintaining a strong relationship with The Fed and Israel.

So what? As President, good diplomacy is part of his job. Waving a chainsaw around is not suitable for geopolitical diplomacy... it's a great way to build publicity while you're in the early stages of your candidacy. "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"... we have no use for this kind of brain-dead "one-issue consistency" where someone is "bad" or "good" solely on the basis of whether they maintain diplomatic connections with Benjamin Netanyahu. The Left was doing exactly this same stunt to Trump when he opened diplomatic communication with North Korea. Somehow, Trump was suddenly a closet-communist or admirer of Kim Jong Un. How ridiculous!

 

[acptulsa]

In addition, this will take away a most likely money losing institution away from the necks of ordinary Argentinians.

No, it won't, because that particular most likely money losing institution is already taken away from the necks of ordinary Argentines.

Make up your mind. Is it a $20-40 a head gold mine? Or is it a millstone? Because if it's a millstone, the only Argentines who are in danger of being dragged under with it are the laid off bureaucrats and bureaucratic labor who know it best and think they can make it pay. Are they being rewarded for being ex bureaucrats, or just taking a big risk? Make up your mind.

Proprietorship in the 21st Century. Running a company from the shop floor, instead of phoning it in from a thousand miles away. Service providers with a stake in their own personal professional life. Sacrilegious! I like it.

Why shouldn't he try to keep the one locally owned airline operating? You don't think it has the potential to speed the country's economic recovery enough to mean more than twenty bucks' worth of prosperity? Think all his constituents are Luddites? Does he have any other way to insure that the Schwabbies don't cut the whole country off out of spite?

At times like these I pause and ask myself, what does he know that I don't?

 

[vita3]

Argentina’s President-elect Javier Milei on Monday visited the burial site of the the seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, as the first stop of his visit to the United States, ahead of his meetings with U.S. officials.

Milei arrived at the cemetery, located in Queens, New York, just after 9 A.M. with his entourage, where he met Rabbi Simon Jacobson, who has become somewhat of an informal advisor and mentor. Milei was visibly emotional when he met Rabbi Jacobson at the entrance of the site, and they went together to pray at the grave.

 

[CaptUSA]

But you're missing the larger point...


Yes, it's amazing how you fair-weather posters suddenly materialize out of the aether whenever there is a geopolitical event with potentially material consequences to US imperial politics. Truly amazing...

Yeah, I don't get it. We are in a battle of ideas, not personalities. The people of Argentina voted for our ideas over the cronyism of government power. And yet, when our ideas win, they want to change the conversation into a battle of personalities.

We have a winning message. There's a lesson there. Regardless of whether or not the messenger is perfect.

 

[vita3]

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...bavitcher-rebbe-before-meeting-u-s-officials/

Milei has repeatedly vowed that he would dramatically change Argentina’s foreign policy, currently oriented under leftist rule towards China, Russia, and Iran, as Breitbart previously reported.

Rabbi Jacobson told Breitbart that he believes there is divine intervention at play in Milei’s election, amid the turmoil in the Middle East, stoked and funded by Iran.

“We were speaking earlier, I was sitting with him for breakfast, and I said to him that, ‘you’re here at the Ohel, it’s historic times now with everything going on in Israel, and all the chaos.’ To have a leader like him, if he shows an example, he can have influence on all the leaders of the countries of the world. Because leadership is lacking, and he can be that, kind of, moral example,” Jacobson said. “He could change the world.”

“I find it serendipitous here, that in the middle of all that’s going on in the Middle East, in Israel, and here we are, and he becomes president, an underdog, and in a landslide win— there’s a lot of elements that sound to me like there’s some type of deeper choreography, an invisible hand at work,” Jacobson continued, adding that he is “honored to be part of it.”

 

[John-G]

Yeah, I don't get it. We are in a battle of ideas, not personalities. The people of Argentina voted for our ideas over the cronyism of government power. And yet, when our ideas win, they want to change the conversation into a battle of personalities.

We have a winning message. There's a lesson there. Regardless of whether or not the messenger is perfect.

So, forget about personality, the man is actually considering giving away taxpayer property to a small group of govt workers. I would still be bringing it up even if Ron Paul himself proposed such a silly policy. The problem with a charlatan/con man using liberty message to win is this, when he actually fails as a leader, his failures will be blamed on his and his campaign promises.

 

[John-G]

No, it won't, because that particular most likely money losing institution is already taken away from the necks of ordinary Argentines.

Make up your mind. Is it a $20-40 a head gold mine? Or is it a millstone? Because if it's a millstone, the only Argentines who are in danger of being dragged under with it are the laid off bureaucrats and bureaucratic labor who know it best and think they can make it pay. Are they being rewarded for being ex bureaucrats, or just taking a big risk? Make up your mind.

Proprietorship in the 21st Century. Running a company from the shop floor, instead of phoning it in from a thousand miles away. Service providers with a stake in their own personal professional life. Sacrilegious! I like it.

Why shouldn't he try to keep the one locally owned airline operating? You don't think it has the potential to speed the country's economic recovery enough to mean more than twenty bucks' worth of prosperity? Think all his constituents are Luddites? Does he have any other way to insure that the Schwabbies don't cut the whole country off out of spite?

At times like these I pause and ask myself, what does he know that I don't?

Lemme try again, the airline assets has value that can be used by a proper business to make profit. Lets say for example the value of the plane, route, brand etc is $1 billion. They can still be losing money every year with that asset. When this asset is sold, the proceeds can still be used to enrich the citizens. In addition to that, when the money losing airline is slashed off, the govt will gain by not losing money.

There is no contradiction in my post.

 

[ClaytonB]

Yeah, I don't get it. We are in a battle of ideas, not personalities. The people of Argentina voted for our ideas over the cronyism of government power. And yet, when our ideas win, they want to change the conversation into a battle of personalities.

We have a winning message. There's a lesson there. Regardless of whether or not the messenger is perfect.