Israel: An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

[pcosmar]

But the point is that there is not a distinct Palestine people.

You mean like a specific RACE,, or a single RELIGION..
No,, there were many people that settled there of various religions that had lived there for centuries being ruled by some neighboring empire or another.
There was no Nationalism. That shit was imported from Europe. like an infection.

 

[AuH20]

Texas has been part of Spain, Mexico and France. Since 1845 it has been one of the United States. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Does that mean it didn't exist until they got sick of being mistreated by Mexico?

If you want to argue with someone and call them ignorant, why not start with T.E. Lawrence of Arabia?



http://www.pef.org.uk/profiles/lt-col-te-lawrence-lawrence-of-arabia-cb-dso-1888-1935

When the British Colonial Office appointed governors of Palestine and put it on their maps of the British Empire, was that an Arabian PR stunt?

Palestine or greater Syria is a location. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

 

[acptulsa]

Palestine or greater Syria is a location. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

North Dakota is largely uninhabited. Should we relocate them all and shoot the ones that won't go to make room for the embattled Kurds?

After all, technically they aren't North Dakotans, they're Americans...

 

[AuH20]

North Dakota is largely uninhabited. Should we relocate them all and shoot the ones that won't go to make room for the embattled Kurds?

After all, technically they aren't North Dakotans, they're Americans...

You do realize that the Zionists largely purchased the land from Arab land owners leading up to 1948? So if the citizens of North Dakota were foolish enough to sell their stake to wealthy Kurds, I guess that would be alright.

 

[acptulsa]

You do realize that the Zionists largely purchased the land from Arab land owners leading up to 1948? So if the citizens of North Dakota were foolish enough to sell their stake to wealthy Kurds, I guess that would be alright.

Are we seriously contending that all of the present Israel except the Gaza Strip and the West Bank was bought by Zionists before 1948?

You suppose if Kurds did buy up North Dakota they'd be allowed to secede?

 

[pcosmar]

You do realize that the Zionists largely purchased the land from Arab land owners leading up to 1948?

Some perhaps. But most of it was like the Railroad at the James Farm.

Much like they are still being pushed out today.

 

[robert68]

To put this all in proper perspective, what the US did to American Indians (and a long list of other peoples since) is far, far worse than either case - and as justice has not been done here, who are we to tell them what to do over there?

The US has a "beam in its own eye" problem when condemning any other nation's behavior.

Zionists love to play the “American Indians” card on Americans. But just one of the differences between the two situations is if the Palestinians had the citizenship rights the Native Americans do in the US, the Palestinians would have an easy voting majority in their native land Palestine, almost flipping the Jewish/Palestinian demographic balance that presently exists in Israel.

 

[robert68]

You do realize that the Zionists largely purchased the land from Arab land owners leading up to 1948? So if the citizens of North Dakota were foolish enough to sell their stake to wealthy Kurds, I guess that would be alright.

The fact is Jews held around 7% of the land in Palestine in 1947, and most of that land was acquired from absentee landlords, not the true owners.

 

[lilymc]

Israel is an apartheid state with unbounded racism and hate towards the Palestinians. Israel was formed by aggressively forcing the Palestinians out of their land and murdering anybody who got in their way. Our continued support of them and their behavior is a large part of why that region hates us. (That, and we drop bombs on them, which also doesn't help)

This is exactly the kind of one-sided thinking that a couple here have been talking about.

I'm not on this site very much, so maybe I just haven't read the more balanced, truthful replies. So I'm not going to claim that no one ever criticizes the other side.

However, based on what I have seen, it's always the sort of thing you just said. "Israel is evil" "Israel is racist" "Israel is hateful, Israel discriminates" yadda yadda yadda.

Hello???? Am I in the twilight zone here, or what? If you don't realize how extreme the Muslim hatred is against Jews, and how they are raised to hate Jews with a passion, and how they do NOT want peace, they want all Jews dead..... then you guys are either willfully blind, or woefully misinformed.

Now before I get tarred and feathered, and chased off of this site.... I'm not pro Israel. I'm pro honesty and fairness.

I'm not talking about you in particular, it's a general "you" when I say that if you're going to talk about racism, hate, murder, etc... then you better talk about the Muslim extreme hatred, to the point of being diabolical. And how they teach their kids from the youngest age that Jews should die, and how they DON'T want peace. They never have. They have always wanted Jews dead, or out of the Middle East.

If you're going to talk about institutional racism, then talk about how in certain Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia) Jews aren't allowed to live there (while the reverse is not true) and the hatred toward Jews is woven into every aspect of their society. In Saudi Arabia there also is no religious freedom, if you are a Christian or a believer of some other religion, you can't openly practice it.

Although Israel is called a Jewish state, last I checked, Muslims, Christians, or others can practice their religion there.

How many of you here have lived in, or even visited a Muslim country? How many of you have been to Israel?

That's not a rhetorical question, I honestly want to know.

 

[lilymc]

Bullshit.

It was Palestine when the Romans invaded it. It was Palestine under several occupations and under British occupation.
It was Palestine when Zionism was created. in the late 1800s..

It was Palestine when Christ walked the earth.

you might even want to listen to that old Palestinian Jew in the video I posted.

I think what he was saying was that it was always a region, not a nation or one distinct group of people.

 

[twomp]

This is exactly the kind of one-sided thinking that a couple here have been talking about.

I'm not on this site very much, so maybe I just haven't read the more balanced, truthful replies. So I'm not going to claim that no one ever criticizes the other side.

However, based on what I have seen, it's always the sort of thing you just said. "Israel is evil" "Israel is racist" "Israel is hateful, Israel discriminates" yadda yadda yadda.

Hello???? Am I in the twilight zone here, or what? If you don't realize how extreme the Muslim hatred is against Jews, and how they are raised to hate Jews with a passion, and how they do NOT want peace, they want all Jews dead..... then you guys are either willfully blind, or woefully misinformed.

Now before I get tarred and feathered, and chased off of this site.... I'm not pro Israel. I'm pro honesty and fairness.

I'm not talking about you in particular, it's a general "you" when I say that if you're going to talk about racism, hate, murder, etc.... then you better talk about the Muslim extreme hatred, to the point of being diabolical....and how they teach their kids from the youngest age that Jews should die, and how they DON'T want peace. They never have. They have always wanted Jews dead, or out of the Middle East.

If you're going to talk about institutional racism, then talk about how in certain Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia) Jews aren't even allowed to be in there, and the hatred toward Jews is woven into every aspect of their society. In Saudi Arabia there also is no religious freedom, if you are a Christian or a believer of some other religion, you can't openly practice it.

Although Israel is called a Jewish state, last I checked, Muslims, Christians, or others can practice their religion there.

How many of you here have lived in, or even visited a Muslim country? How many of you have been to Israel?

That's not a rhetorical question, I honestly want to know.

What does being there have to do with anything? One side has airplanes, tanks, drones and nukes. The other side has shoulder rockets and slingshots. Yet, the media continually only talks about one side. The media only supports one side. IF this is David vs. Goliath. Which side do you think is Goliath?

You and your army of low post Israel first friends around here all sound the same. Indoctrinated by the MSM/AIPAC/Israel into actually believing that the bullies are the victims here. Either that or you are paid to say what you say. We know the Israeli government wouldn't be shy to do that now don't we?

 

[twomp]

This is exactly the kind of one-sided thinking that a couple here have been talking about.

I'm not on this site very much, so maybe I just haven't read the more balanced, truthful replies. So I'm not going to claim that no one ever criticizes the other side.

However, based on what I have seen, it's always the sort of thing you just said. "Israel is evil" "Israel is racist" "Israel is hateful, Israel discriminates" yadda yadda yadda.

Hello???? Am I in the twilight zone here, or what? If you don't realize how extreme the Muslim hatred is against Jews, and how they are raised to hate Jews with a passion, and how they do NOT want peace, they want all Jews dead..... then you guys are either willfully blind, or woefully misinformed.

Now before I get tarred and feathered, and chased off of this site.... I'm not pro Israel. I'm pro honesty and fairness.

I'm not talking about you in particular, it's a general "you" when I say that if you're going to talk about racism, hate, murder, etc... then you better talk about the Muslim extreme hatred, to the point of being diabolical. And how they teach their kids from the youngest age that Jews should die, and how they DON'T want peace. They never have. They have always wanted Jews dead, or out of the Middle East.

If you're going to talk about institutional racism, then talk about how in certain Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia) Jews aren't allowed to live there (while the reverse is not true) and the hatred toward Jews is woven into every aspect of their society. In Saudi Arabia there also is no religious freedom, if you are a Christian or a believer of some other religion, you can't openly practice it.

Although Israel is called a Jewish state, last I checked, Muslims, Christians, or others can practice their religion there.

How many of you here have lived in, or even visited a Muslim country? How many of you have been to Israel?

That's not a rhetorical question, I honestly want to know.

New law dividing Christian, Muslim Arabs legalizes inequality

Israel ratified a new law that legally distinguishes between Muslim and Christian citizens of the state, Haaretz reported Monday. The bill, which easily passed by a 31-6 vote in its third and final reading, recognizes the Christian Arab population as a separate, though not national minority for the first time.

The law, which expands the Advisory Committee for Equal Opportunity in the Employment Commission by adding to it a separate Christian representative, was marketed as a way to better integrate Christians into the Israeli workforce. However, in practice, it is being carried out at the blatant expense of Muslim citizens. There are approximately 160,000 Christians living in Israel, compared with over a million Muslim citizens.

According to the bill’s sponsor, Likud MK Yariv Levin, Christians are “our natural allies, a counterbalance against the Muslims who want to destroy the state from within.” Levin, an outspoken opponent of the establishment of a Palestinian state (like other fellow MKs in Likud and the Jewish Home party) also emphasized that he refuses to call Christian citizens “Arabs.” “I’m being careful about not calling them Arabs because they aren’t Arabs,” he told the Israeli daily Ma’ariv a few weeks ago, despite the fact that the large majority of them are, in fact, Arabs, and many identify as part of the Palestinian nation.

Through the Knesset’s passing of the law, along with Levin’s candid comments, the Israeli government has made two things abundantly clear (if they weren’t already):

1. “Arab” is a bad word, and the Muslim Arab population specifically – the largest minority in the country – is made up of evil citizens intent on destroying the state, and are therefore not eligible to have equal rights.

2. Israel defines and subsequently prioritizes the rights of its citizens according to religion and ethnicity, in blatant contravention of its Declaration of Independence and the most common working assumptions of any democracy. This new law adds another chunk of evidence that Israel is an ethno-religious state with systematic, structural inequalities that work mainly to privilege the Jewish population living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

This new law has legally enshrined the de facto reality in which Muslim citizens of Israel are not entitled to equal rights, just by virtue of being born that way. This is the definition of a racist policy.

Jews sit at the top of the pyramid of religious privilege, followed by Christians and then Muslims. Of course, there are also inner-hierarchies within every sector (i.e. Russian Jews before Ethiopian Jews, urban middle class Palestinians before Bedouin in the periphery).

What strikes me about Levin’s comments is how he makes Christians out to be the Jews’ best friends, while the Muslims are the inherent enemy. This makes me think he knows nothing about basic history.

I guess there goes your "we are all eqaul in Israel" argument now doesn't it? Quick go ask your handler or FOX News how you should reply.

http://972mag.com/new-law-seeks-to-divide-christian-muslim-arabs/87705/

 

[lilymc]

What does being there have to do with anything? One side has airplanes, tanks, drones and nukes. The other side has shoulder rockets and slingshots. Yet, the media continually only talks about one side. The media only supports one side. IF this is David vs. Goliath. Which side do you think is Goliath?

You and your army of low post Israel first friends around here all sound the same. Indoctrinated by the MSM/AIPAC/Israel into actually believing that the bullies are the victims here. Either that or you are paid to say what you say. We know the Israeli government wouldn't be shy to do that now don't we?

1) Some of the wealthiest countries in the world are Muslims nations in the Middle East. So let's not pretend that the poor little palestinians are alone in the battle against big bad Israel. They (the palestinians) have always been used as pawns, in the neverending battle in the M.E. Their Muslim "brothers" don't care about the innocent women and children, if they did, they wouldn't use them as human shields, and they prolong the whole mess. They don't want peace, they want Jews dead, or out of the Middle East.

You are romanticizing the plight of the palestinians, while ignoring the reality that they are pawns. You're also ignoring that the majority of them SUPPORT using terrorism tactics and targeting civilians.

2) Indoctrinated? That is laughable. I don't even watch TV. The reason I asked if you have been there is because I have. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 years (long time ago, but the situation hasn't changed, if anything it's worse). And I've also been to Israel.

In fact, when my family went back to Saudi Arabia (after taking a vacation) we couldn't have an Israel stamp in our passport, or else we wouldn't have been allowed back in. So we had to have the stamp on a separate sheet of paper.

When I lived in Saudi Arabia, it was like being in a different world it was so backwards. I remember Israel as being a modern country, where women, non-Jews, and other minorities had rights. It was the exact opposite in Saudi Arabia.

If anyone is indoctrinated, it is some here who for some strange reason have chosen to believe the worst about one side, and glossed over or romanticized the other.

 

[lilymc]

New law dividing Christian, Muslim Arabs legalizes inequality



I guess there goes your "we are all eqaul in Israel" argument now doesn't it? Quick go ask your handler or FOX News how you should reply.

http://972mag.com/new-law-seeks-to-divide-christian-muslim-arabs/87705/

You totally missed my point. The point was that you're ignoring that the other side is the exact same way (only way worse!) And it been that way for a long time, in the Arab/Muslim countries.

I'm not here to defend Israel. I was pointing out the one-sidedness, and distorted reality.

 

[pcosmar]

I think what he was saying was that it was always a region, not a nation or one distinct group of people.

And what does that have to do with the Zionists moving in and stealing land and murdering people.?

Yes it is a region. No, They have no Nationalism (good for them)

The Zionists have been provoking and inciting since their creation. even before the Huge resources of the Rothschilds bought off the United Nations.

The whole purpose of Israel is to provoke war. And they do.

 

[Danke]

This is exactly the kind of one-sided thinking that a couple here have been talking about.

I'm not on this site very much, so maybe I just haven't read the more balanced, truthful replies. So I'm not going to claim that no one ever criticizes the other side.

However, based on what I have seen, it's always the sort of thing you just said. "Israel is evil" "Israel is racist" "Israel is hateful, Israel discriminates" yadda yadda yadda.

Hello???? Am I in the twilight zone here, or what? If you don't realize how extreme the Muslim hatred is against Jews, and how they are raised to hate Jews with a passion, and how they do NOT want peace, they want all Jews dead..... then you guys are either willfully blind, or woefully misinformed.

Now before I get tarred and feathered, and chased off of this site.... I'm not pro Israel. I'm pro honesty and fairness.

I'm not talking about you in particular, it's a general "you" when I say that if you're going to talk about racism, hate, murder, etc... then you better talk about the Muslim extreme hatred, to the point of being diabolical. And how they teach their kids from the youngest age that Jews should die, and how they DON'T want peace. They never have. They have always wanted Jews dead, or out of the Middle East.

If you're going to talk about institutional racism, then talk about how in certain Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia) Jews aren't allowed to live there (while the reverse is not true) and the hatred toward Jews is woven into every aspect of their society. In Saudi Arabia there also is no religious freedom, if you are a Christian or a believer of some other religion, you can't openly practice it.

Although Israel is called a Jewish state, last I checked, Muslims, Christians, or others can practice their religion there.

How many of you here have lived in, or even visited a Muslim country? How many of you have been to Israel?

That's not a rhetorical question, I honestly want to know.

Spent a fair amount of time in Turkey and been to Israel twice on military exercises.

 

[lilymc]

And what does that have to do with the Zionists moving in and stealing land and murdering people.?

Yes it is a region. No, They have no Nationalism (good for them)

The Zionists have been provoking and inciting since their creation. even before the Huge resources of the Rothschilds bought off the United Nations.

The whole purpose of Israel is to provoke war. And they do.

You can argue that Israel should never have been created in the first place (I think that's pointless, because what's done is done.) But I see a lot of people re-writing history here, and that to me is extremely sad.

I wasn't planning on getting into any heavy debates on the whole conflict. There's not enough time in the day for that.

I don't see either side as the victim. What I do see is that one of the sides doesn't want peace. They never have... and they never will. Because it's not just about land (since you know, Israel takes up such a huge part of the ME). The conflict is about much more than that, and it goes way, way back, thousands of years.

 

[twomp]

You totally missed my point. The point was that you're ignoring that the other side is the exact same way (only way worse!) And it been that way for a long time, in the Arab/Muslim countries.

I'm not here to defend Israel. I was pointing out the one-sidedness, and distorted reality.

Oh please, there isn't another forum that is more vocal about Saudi Arabia than this forum. How many posts have you seen where people around here are venting about Saudi Arabia and how many of the hijackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. This post has NOTHING to do with Saudi Arabia which incidentally seem to be pretty good pals with the Israelis in their crusade to rid the world of all things Iranian.

I don't see you posting in those posts but curiously when Israel comes up, here you are. The disdain for the Israeli government here is just that. I doubt many people here have any issues with the Israeli people themselves. It's the Israeli government that is the problem. They are not as even handed and fair to minorities as you and the mainstream media say they are. Their manipulation of their media AND ours has left us with an entire population that thinks like you.

You and your Israel first attitudes may be a minority on these forums but you guys and your way of thinking is the way most Americans think. You can go to almost any forum outside of a few forums like ours where your ideas will be welcome and celebrated but please don't think that the "omg poor Israel" attitude will go far around here. The folks of this forums have their eyes wide open.

 

[jjdoyle]

Being born and raised as a Southern Baptist, you might think I would agree 100% with you that Israel is our strongest ally, but I do not. Until the U.S. government releases the other 28 pages to the 9/11 Fraud Report, and does a full, open, investigation, I wouldn't call a country that is suspected to have picked up on the 9/11 attacks and didn't warn us, as an ally:



Skip to the :58 second mark for the Israel and 9/11 information part.

*Is there a reason video embeds to YouTube videos don't always work? I'm trying to provide a link to a video, and start it at the point of discussion, and it almost always fails when I do that.

 

[lilymc]

Oh please, there isn't another forum that is more vocal about Saudi Arabia than this forum. How many posts have you seen where people around here are venting about Saudi Arabia and how many of the hijackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. This post has NOTHING to do with Saudi Arabia which incidentally seem to be pretty good pals with the Israelis in their crusade to rid the world of all things Iranian.

I don't see you posting in those posts but curiously when Israel comes up, here you are. The disdain for the Israeli government here is just that. I doubt many people here have any issues with the Israeli people themselves. It's the Israeli government that is the problem. They are not as even handed and fair to minorities as you and the mainstream media say they are. Their manipulation of their media AND ours has left us with an entire population that thinks like you.

You and your Israel first attitudes may be a minority on these forums but you guys and your way of thinking is the way most Americans think. You can go to almost any forum outside of a few forums like ours where your ideas will be welcome and celebrated but please don't think that the "omg poor Israel" attitude will go far around here. The folks of this forums have their eyes wide open.

I wasn't talking about threads solely devoted to Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia. I was talking about threads devoted to the conflict between Israel and its enemies.

On THOSE threads what I have seen is very one-sided. But I stated from the start that I'm not here that much, so it could be that I just haven't seen the criticism of the other side.

And please don't label me when you don't even know me. I'm not "Israel first." I already said, I am for honesty and fairness. Whenever I see someone ranting on about "Racism! Discrimination! Murder!" and all that, while ignoring that the other side is guilty of those things, and is even worse... it irritates me.