Israel: An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

[kcchiefs6465]

Am I the only one who doesn't feel bad for the Palestinians in Gaza after they stirred up a hornet's nest with the rockets? You have to be borderline retarded to pick a fight with Israel considering the shape of their fighting force. And the most repulsive aspect is that Hamas is not letting some Palestinians leave the more dangerous areas because they want a high death toll. Both sides are a mess.

The dead children stirred no hornet's nest. What stirred a hornet's nest to come would be the support of Israel as they commit these sorts of atrocities. The children's machined gunned, mangled corpses will be spread throughout all of West Asia and North, West, Central, and East Africa.

We're talking over 90% civilian mortality rate with the other 10% being arguable at best.

The hell are you babbling about, "Palestinians"? As if this was some concerted, country wide attack.

 

[twomp]

Am I the only one who doesn't feel bad for the Palestinians in Gaza after they stirred up a hornet's nest with the rockets? You have to be borderline retarded to pick a fight with Israel considering the shape of their fighting force. And the most repulsive aspect is that Hamas is not letting some Palestinians leave the more dangerous areas because they want a high death toll. Both sides are a mess.

The side that wants the big death total is currently achieving its goal. Just ask those 4 kids playing soccer on the beach who were hunted down. Shoot kids. Blame Hamas and the sheep will believe you. Baaaaaaaa

 

[AuH20]

The side that wants the big death total is currently achieving its goal. Just ask those 4 kids playing soccer on the beach who were hunted down. Shoot kids. Blame Hamas and the sheep will believe you. Baaaaaaaa

If they wanted a huge death toll, they would have carpet bombed the entire area.

 

[enhanced_deficit]

I support Israel because I see them as a party that would accept a peace. I do not believe Muslim extremists would ever do so. And I do not see any movement in the general population to resist or reform this extremist political position.

I do not support our government allying our nation with Israel, but as an individual I support Israel for the reasons stated.

Why do you think Israel created Hamas and wanted to weaken secular PLO and Christian led PLFP? Because they were far more "extreme" than Hamasif you have read history.
It was necessity for Israel to create a cntrolled group like "Islamist" Hamas with built-in spies to divide Palstinians along religious lines, to weaken secular Christian led groups like PLO, PLFP and to repaint the occupation battles as a "clash of civilization" among the simple minded folks within the 'West".

Secular and some Christian Palestinian militants like George Habash were far more "extremist" in their tactics against USTF Israeli occupation.

Terrorism's Christian Godfather; Checking in for a flight has never been the same since 1967

Palestinian Christian leader in Canada: Shoot Israeli Jews if they don’t leave Jerusalem

 

[ibaghdadi]

As a Palestinian (and a libertarian) whose life has been (and is being) directly affected by this conflict, I felt I'm obliged to comment.

1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. The United States has spent a long time playing Russian Roulette with countries in the Middle East (i.e. arming ISIS in Syria, and fighting against them in Iraq)..but Israel has *almost always been our ally.

Ah, this can get very complex. To start, it puts the cart before the horse. Many Arabs are hostile towards the United States precisely because of its "special relationship" with Israel. You may say that "Israel has always been our ally", but on this side people see it as "The US has always been on Israel's side".

2) The anger is directed towards Israel as if they are our enemy. You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.

Agreed, in principle. However you should realize that the Jewish population of Israel is shifting dangerously towards the right. Open racism - even racist mobs and riots - have become common. And I say this as someone who has many peace-loving Jewish Israeli friends.

Moreover, being a democracy (albeit an "ethnic" one), the actions of Isreal's government can be said to genuinely represent the will of its people. The same cannot be said of most (all?) Arab regimes, including the Palestinians.

3) The power of the AIPAC lobby - just like liberals broadly lump in all gun owners in with the NRA, it is unfair to broadly lump all the folks in Israel with AIPAC. The anger should be dedicated towards the politicians who allow AIPAC to have such a heavy influence on their decision making when it comes to foreign policy - not Israel.

Again, agreed in principle. However I should also note that certain American pro-Israeli groups are even more extreme than AIPAC, and it would be wrong to attribute this only to politics. Religion - I'm afraid - plays an important part.

4) The foreign aid the United States sends to Israel isn't Israel's fault. If you were offered billions in aid from the United States, would you say NO? Absolutely not. The anger here should be directed towards our politicians who try to buy influence with foreign leaders using foreign aid as a tool to do so.

Agreed again. However, the answer to "if you were offered billions of aid from the United States, would you say NO" isn't as intuitive as you present. In my case, I'd ask, "OK, in return for what?" Many pro-revolution Egyptians, for example, actively campaigned for the US to cut all aid to Egypt (it all goes to the autocratic, corrupt military).

It is just this guy's opinion that it is absurd to oppose everything that Israel, an ally of the United States, does

I've never felt that people here "oppose everything that is Israel", and I think most criticism is justified. However, as a Palestinian, here's what I find regularly irritating:

• People who give Hamas a carte blanche; Hamas has been involved in terrorism and their rule in Gaza has been undemocratic
• Equating Gaza (or the Palestinians) with Hamas; Hamas actually (until the current events) had a very low approval rating among Palestinians
• People who seem to have a soft spot for Iran; Palestinians have long suffered due to the Iranian government's intervention, even as many regular Iranians only have the best of intentions

 

[ibaghdadi]

Am I the only one who doesn't feel bad for the Palestinians in Gaza after they stirred up a hornet's nest with the rockets? You have to be borderline retarded to pick a fight with Israel considering the shape of their fighting force. And the most repulsive aspect is that Hamas is not letting some Palestinians leave the more dangerous areas because they want a high death toll. Both sides are a mess.

Wow, not sure where to start. First of all, not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. In fact, right until the recent flare up, 70% of the population of Gaza wanted Hamas to maintain the ceasefire and nearly 60% wanted the unified Palestinian government to renounce all violence (source).

However, predictably, when Israel attacks so indiscriminately, Palestinian opposition to Hamas will immediately, instantly fly out of the window. I'd bet that Hamas approval ratings are very high in Gaza now (meanwhile right before the flare up, a Pew poll suggested that their approval rating among all Palestinians is under 20%).

As for Hamas "not letting some Palestinians leave", I'd like to see that sourced. Gaza is very tiny, and it's home to over 1.6 million people. It's not like there are many places for people to leave towards (many are already refugees).

As for your assessment that "you must be retarded to pick a fight with Israel", the fact is that Hamas already considers itself to have won this round, regardless of civilian casualties or infrastructure damage. In any fight between a massively powerful side and an underdog, the underdog merely needs to stay standing to the end to claim victory.

Now: Does Hamas want more civilian casualties? I can't say for sure, but it certainly seems expedient for them, and some of their leaders have previously made comments that suggest that. All mixed up in martyrdom religious rhetoric, of course.

But - again - not to feel bad for innocent civilians that are caught in the middle of this high stakes game? Many of them women & children? That doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem right at all. It doesn't matter how you feel about the players - the minimum obligation of a human being is to feel for the plight of other innocent human beings.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Thanks for spending the time correcting this... I get tired of defending facts and challenging the lies and deceit. The world is protesting, I wonder why US media has not covered the atrocities and global protests across the planet?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Picture #1: The Brits were occupiers but the land wasn't British. Unless of course you would consider Iraqis to be American during the US occupation of Iraq.
Picture #2: Of course they rejected the plan. This was their home, their land. Just because foreigners had "a plan" for their homes doesn't mean they should give it up.
Picture #3: This is about half true, but none of it really helps your case. For example Egypt before 1959 was largely aiding the All-Palestine Government in fighting back Israeli incursions.
Picture #4: This is just pure ignorance. Palestinians live under constant oppression, military incursions, severely restricted movement, and blockades. Any concept you have of Palestinian self-governance here is a farce. The only thing coming close to self-governance is Hamas in Gaza, which is obviously not Israel-approved.

 

[THX 1138]

The woman on the left is Anna Baltzer, an anti-Zionist Jew. I met her several years ago; I found her to be an excellent speaker and very cool person.



To answer the OP:

I do not consider Israel to be an "ally" for several reasons.

1. They are the worst repeat offender of intelligence theft against the US throughout the entire international community. And not only have they merely stolen our intel, they've actually tried to sell it to Russia and China.

2. Israel is the only Middle Eastern nation that has ever attacked the US without provocation. I refer to the attack on the USS Liberty, as well as the Lavon Affair.

3. AIPAC, along with various other pro-Zionist groups (and individuals), are known for manipulating and/or even bullying US politicians who have the nerve to try and put US interests above those of Israel.

4. Although I'm not a Christian, I find it bizarre and disgusting that Christians are often treated like absolute trash in Israel. Christians probably get better treatment in Iran than in Israel - and that's saying something.

5. For a nation that's only about the size of New Jersey, Israel has quite a morbid history of sexual slavery and kidnapping.

6. Israel is a National Socialist state. Government owns approximately 75% of the land there. If the policies of the government of Israel were ever implemented in the US, pro-Israel conservatives would be the first ones to criticize it as "leftist, big government" nonsense. And they would be right!

7. "We, the Jewish people, control America - and the Americans know it". - Ariel Sharon, October 2001

8. "My opinion of Christian Zionists? They're scum. But don't tell them that. We need all the useful idiots we can get right now." -Benjamin Netanyahu

Ultimately, I agree with you, OP. It is our own government's fault - not Israel's - for being corrupt and weak-willed enough to actually hand over billions of taxpayer dollars a year to this nation - without question and without conditions.

In reality we should not be giving money away to ANY nation without strict and thorough conditions. As a taxpayer, I do feel that I have the right to question what happens to the money I worked to earn. I hope this helps answer your questions.

 

[thoughtomator]

To put this all in proper perspective, what the US did to American Indians (and a long list of other peoples since) is far, far worse than either case - and as justice has not been done here, who are we to tell them what to do over there?

The US has a "beam in its own eye" problem when condemning any other nation's behavior.

 

[pcosmar]

You can shove your antisemitism Slander and Smears up your ass.

I oppose Zionism,, on both political and spiritual reasons.

 

[AuH20]

Stop spreading lies.

The concept of Palestine is an artificial creation derived exclusively to combat the jews in 1964. There is no native Palestinian homeland. There never was. Most of the land was uninhabitable until the Romans and later the Israelis drained most of the land. With that said, you can make a compelling argument that a sizable amount of the people residing in Israel aren't necessarily true jews and therefore the covenant excuse is null & void.

 

[pcosmar]

The concept of Palestine is an artificial creation derived exclusively to combat the jews in 1964.

Bullshit.

It was Palestine when the Romans invaded it. It was Palestine under several occupations and under British occupation.
It was Palestine when Zionism was created. in the late 1800s..

It was Palestine when Christ walked the earth.

you might even want to listen to that old Palestinian Jew in the video I posted.

 

[AuH20]

Bullshit.

It was Palestine when the Romans invaded it. It was Palestine under several occupations and under British occupation.
It was Palestine when Zionism was created. in the late 1800s..

It was Palestine when Christ walked the earth.

you might even want to listen to that old Palestinian Jew in the video I posted.

Palestine doesn't have a specific people. The term 'Palestine' is derived from Philistine thanks to the Romans, who have a sinister sense of humor. Palestinians are not Phillistines (from the Aegean Sea) or vice versa.

 

[acptulsa]

If there was no Palestine in February 1918 then what is this RAAF Bristol doing there?

 

[pcosmar]

Palestine doesn't have a specific people. Palestine is derived from Philistine thanks to the Romans, who have a sinister sense of humor. Palestinians are not Phillistines (from the Aegean Sea) or vice versa.

And all of that is irrelevant. People lived there,, for thousands of years. While the Crusades were fought though their lands.. and while various empires claimed it.

The people that lived there and still do live there are the Palestinian people.

And there are Zionists,, who invaded the land in the early 1900s,,, and created a "country" in 1947.

 

[AuH20]

And all of that is irrelevant. People lived there,, for thousands of years. While the Crusades were fought though their lands.. and while various empires claimed it.

The people that lived there and still do live there are the Palestinian people.

And there are Zionists,, who invaded the land in the early 1900s,,, and created a "country" in 1947.

The Palestinians, until their relatively recent PR stunt, always considered themselves members of Syria and Egypt. I'm no fan of the zionists but people are blind to the facts:

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:”We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.”

“There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937

“It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.”- Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, to the UN Security Council

Syrian President Hafez Assad once told PLO leader Yassir Arafat:

“You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.”


Assad stated on March 8, 1974, “Palestine is a principal part of Southern Syria, and we consider that it is our right and duty to insist that it be a liberated partner of our Arab homeland and of Syria.”

In the words of the late military commander of the PLO as well as member of the PLO Executive Council, Zuhair Muhsin:

“There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity….yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.”

 

[pcosmar]

The Palestinians, until their recent PR stunt, always considered themselves members of Syria and Egypt. I'm no fan of the zionists but people are blind to the facts:

Wrong.
Some Syrians consider Palestine theirs. And possibly some Egyptians too. Maybe some Jordanians as well. They all have interests there.

The Zionists are the new kids on the block,, and they are not making friends.

 

[acptulsa]

The Palestinians, until their recent PR stunt, always considered themselves members of Syria and Egypt. I'm no fan of the zionists but people are blind to the facts:

Texas has been part of Spain, Mexico and France. Since 1845 it has been one of the United States. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Does that mean it didn't exist until they got sick of being mistreated by Mexico?

If you want to argue with someone and call them ignorant, why not start with T.E. Lawrence of Arabia?

In early 1914 Woolley and Lawrence, at the request of the British Museum, accompanied a survey party making maps in the Sinai Desert. While Lawrence undertook an archaeological survey (which he described as providing ‘archaeological colour to a political job’ as permission was required from the Turks who controlled this area) the topographical work was carried out by Captain Newcombe who later worked with Lawrence during the Arab Revolt. This survey, sponsored by the PEF, was tasked with extending southwards the previous PEF Survey of Western Palestine carried out in the 1870s. The 1914 survey (published by Woolley and Lawrence as The Wilderness of Zin, PEF Annual III, 1915) later greatly assisted Lawrence because of the surveying and map-making skills he learnt and also the first-hand knowledge he gained of the terrain, especially in the Aqaba area.

http://www.pef.org.uk/profiles/lt-col-te-lawrence-lawrence-of-arabia-cb-dso-1888-1935

When the British Colonial Office appointed governors of Palestine and put it on their maps of the British Empire, was that an Arabian PR stunt?

 

[AuH20]

Wrong.
Some Syrians consider Palestine theirs. And possibly some Egyptians too. Maybe some Jordanians as well. They all have interests there.

The Zionists are the new kids on the block,, and they are not making friends.

But the point is that there is not a distinct Palestine people. There never has been one. It's a myth. Palestine was a location and a largely uninhabited one at that due to swampland. Both sides lie their ass off so as to conjure sympathy for their causes. This is no different.

 

[acptulsa]

But the point is that there is not a distinct Palestine people. There never has been one. It's a myth. Palestine was a location and a largely uninhabited one at that due to swampland. Both sides lie their ass off so as to conjure sympathy for their causes. This is no different.

Who's lying? Would you like to see the name 'Palestine' in Col. Lawrence's own handwriting?

http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?lawrence-of-arabia-seven-pillars

Who cares if they named themselves or the British named them? They existed, they were there (you did say this Sainai Desert 'swampland' was 'largely' uninhabited did you not?), the British messed with them for generations, the UN came in and started forcibly moving other people onto their lands, and blood has been getting spilled ever since--without once nourishing any Trees of Liberty because it's seldom the tyrants themselves who furnish it.

Someone has been listening to PR all right. So, since North Dakota is 'largely uninhabited' we should shoot everyone there and move the Kurds in?