Israel: An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

[Tod]

Here is the most in-depth discussion I've come across so far (for some reason it won't embed for me):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Q_8ZrYku4

 

[alucard13mm]

Can we at least agree that as an American: USA comes first, Israel/Allies comes second, everyone else good luck.

 

[69360]

As I mentioned previously, I am in favor of ending all foreign aid - including to Israel. And I wouldn't exactly say they "drag us into their shit". Could you point to an example? We provide them financing, weapons, training and use of our military bases..although I will admit, I am not aware of the intricate details of our "alliance". Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Other than Iran rhetoric, embargoes, etc. Perhaps I am just uneducated on the subject, but when have we gotten directly involved in an Israeli conflict? Troops on the ground?

You have got to be kidding or deliberately trolling. The stated goal of AQ, Hamas, Fatah, the government of Iran etc and so on is to remove the Israeli regime and give the Palestinians a country. Our support of the Israeli regime has caused the Iranian hostage crisis, 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan and all sorts of other conflicts in the middle east.

 

[Acala]

You have got to be kidding or deliberately trolling. The stated goal of AQ, Hamas, Fatah, the government of Iran etc and so on is to remove the Israeli regime and give the Palestinians a country. Our support of the Israeli regime has caused the Iranian hostage crisis, 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan and all sorts of other conflicts in the middle east.

The Iranian hostage crisis was a direct result of the US staging a coup to overthrow a freely elected, secular president in Iran and installing a brutal dictator. And we did that because that freely elected President was renegotiating oil contracts with the predecessor of British Petroleum and BP didn't like it. So, no, the hostage crisis was not about Israel, it was about oil and corporate profits.

 

[Acala]

You have got to be kidding or deliberately trolling. The stated goal of AQ, Hamas, Fatah, the government of Iran etc and so on is to remove the Israeli regime and give the Palestinians a country. Our support of the Israeli regime has caused the Iranian hostage crisis, 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan and all sorts of other conflicts in the middle east.

Furthermore, although our support of Israel was part of the motivation for 9/11, it certainly wasn't ALL of it. It was also a result of our occupation of Saudi Arabia and support for the corrupt government there and our intervention in Bosnia.

As for the war in Afghanistan, that was pretty much ALL blowback from our intervention in the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Specifically, our organization, training, and equiping of the Taliban and Al Quaida.

So I think your indictment is not well-founded.

But we still have no business taking sides or being involved in any way in the Middle East. Not with dollars, not with soldiers, not with weapons, not with covert ops, not with intelligence, not with diplomacy, not even with stupid Congressional Resolutions.

 

[pcosmar]

Our support of the Israeli regime has caused the Iranian hostage crisis,

NO it did not.

The overthrow if the elected and well loved leader of Iran by the CIA in 1953,, and the propping up of the Puppet Shaw.. The Creation and support of Savak (secret police) led to the Revolution in Iran.. The hostages were to prevent the CIA and US gov from reinstating the Shaw.

This is documented History.

 

[69360]

Shah or no Shah there were always Islamic radicals existing in Iran. They did not want the state of Israel to exist and didn't want Prime minister Mossadegh either, they wanted an Islamic state. The created nation of Israel is at the root of probably 80% of the problems in the middle east. Since it's creation by the US and Britain post WW2, most of the Mideast misadventures have involved defending against those who detest it's existence. Was it really worth it?

 

[pcosmar]

Shah or no Shah there were always Islamic radicals existing in Iran. They did not want the state of Israel to exist and didn't want Prime minister Mossadegh either, they wanted an Islamic state. The created nation of Israel is at the root of probably 80% of the problems in the middle east. Since it's creation by the US and Britain post WW2, most of the Mideast misadventures have involved defending against those who detest it's existence. Was it really worth it?

It is my firm belief that Israel was created to cause problems in the MidEast.. It is it's sole purpose of existence.

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustionWe shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

that quote from Lucifarian sources coincides with predictions in the Bible..
That area of the world will be the location of the final confrontation between Lucifer and Christ..

Ground zero will be Jerusalem.. where the Anti-christ (Lucifer) will have his throne.

The first world war gave us the League of Nations..
The second world war gave us the United Nations

The third world war will bring a One World Government (NWO)
Israel was created by people that instigated both the first and second world wars. It was created to incite the third world war.

 

[dannno]

I don't like Israel because their excuse to exist there is that they are descendants of German concentration camp survivors and yet they themselves also run a couple concentration camps.

Ron Paul refers to Gaza Strip as a concentration camp:

 

[osan]

I have observed many debates on foreign policy on RPF, DP, and countless other liberty-oriented sites. A trend I have noticed is the anti-Israel sentiments and the downright hatred of Israel.

One can find almost any "trend" in any population, if chosen carefully. Your statement is essentially meaningless as it lacks even the least sufficient specificity as regards the character of the trend in vague-question or to which population in definite detail it refers. "Liberty movement" means next to nothing.

1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. The United States has spent a long time playing Russian Roulette with countries in the Middle East (i.e. arming ISIS in Syria, and fighting against them in Iraq)..but Israel has *almost always been our ally.

That they are our strongest ally (questionable, but I will grant it here for generosity's sake), it does not follow they are a GOOD ally. The fact that ca. '82-'83 (later maybe???) we caught them with their pants at their ankles spying on us would seem to indicate that they are not a particularly good ally. I have nothing against Israelis in general. My statements are simply observations of fact and what I believe to be the reasonable and rational inferences to make based on them.

2) The anger is directed towards Israel as if they are our enemy. You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.

And if people do not, that is their business and not yours. Different people will hold to differing fundamental assumptions regarding that which constitutes a good ally v. a bad. If you have a point to make, you really do need to work on your delivery because as of this point this is nothing better than a rant devoid of any import or credibility. You are entitled to your opinion, but you have yet to convince anyone outside of your own choir of the merits of it.

3) The power of the AIPAC lobby - just like liberals broadly lump in all gun owners in with the NRA, it is unfair to broadly lump all the folks in Israel with AIPAC. The anger should be dedicated towards the politicians who allow AIPAC to have such a heavy influence on their decision making when it comes to foreign policy - not Israel.

Unsupported accusations are rank stoogery. For pity's sake, could you not at least make a token effort to appear sincere. This is nonsense.

4) The foreign aid the United States sends to Israel isn't Israel's fault.

More stoogery. How do you know this to be true? Are you privy to all the internals of the US-Israeli relationship? If not, then I would suggest you have zero basis for being regarded as credible.

The anger here should be directed towards our politicians who try to buy influence with foreign leaders using foreign aid as a tool to do so.

Finally you write something passably credible.

In conclusion, the anger directed towards Israel for many controversial topics should be directed elsewhere. You can be critical of Israel for specific actions they take, just as you would be critical of the United States for specific actions they take. It is just this guy's opinion that it is absurd to oppose everything that Israel, an ally of the United States, does. It is a subject that I think is a sore spot in the liberty movement that should be addressed moving forward. Just my take.

You assert "an ally" as if it meant something. FAIL. The Israelis, so far as I can tell, are a mix of good and crap... pretty well like most other self-identifying groups. Nothing special there. They do plenty bad, but of course they are not the only guilt parties in this affair. The Palestinians are equally to blame IMO. There is more than enough guilt to spread around in that region. And just for your general information, the very existence of "Israel" came about in eminently questionable fashion. All the standard arguments for the justification of its establishment are pure FAIL and have been discussed in these forums many times, so do a little research on the site and I am sure you will be able to hit pay dirt. Now they are here - they are fact - what does one do about that, drive them into the sea? I say no, but their treatment of the indigenous people has been atrocious. Now the Palestinians are hip-deep in the cycle of endless violence. I say screw them both. I wish them nothing bad, but I am also not terribly interested in aiding and abetting either side. So far as I am concerned, the choice is theirs to live in piece or kill each other to the man. I do not see the world as being any the poorer for their absence if war is what they insist upon. The strife in the middle-east is SO yesterday. I cannot imagine anything as boring as these people - not even Obama.

 

[twomp]

B) As for other countries that kill innocent people...well let's say the list is pretty extensive. Perhaps the reason Israel gets so much attention is their high profile.

Again you make that statement without any examples. It is coming off like you are just shilling for Israel. Which country has killed more of its neighbors than Israel. How many Palestinians have the Israeli killed and you never hear about it? Yet, just 1 Israeli citizen dies and everyone in our country knows about it. TERRORISM you see.

The media coverage of the deaths of Palestinians and the death of Israelis isn't even comparable and yet here you are, saying ridiculous stuff like this as if there were more Israeli victims than Palestinian victims. I don't know the exact number but I am willing to bet that for every 1 Israeli that dies at the hands of Palestinian, there are 10 Palestinians that die at the hands of the Israelis. 10 to 1. Would you be willing to take that bet with me?

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

I don't like Israel because their excuse to exist there is that they are descendants of German concentration camp survivors and yet they themselves also run a couple concentration camps.

Ron Paul refers to Gaza Strip as a concentration camp:

Before I start... here's the latest news:

Israel Supporters Defend Gunboat Slaughtering of Four Boys Playing Football on a Beach
"Israel is under attack and fighting back!"



I'll wait for the laughable propaganda garbage on FOX NEWS(et al) to come shortly to American airwaves.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
UK's Tony Blair sister-in-law: Gaza world’s largest concentration camp

Not only Israel but, the puppet government of Egypt. USAID buys/controls oppression everyday of the year, as well as CIA budgeted/operations in countries across the planet. New Egyptian puppet Generalissimo Al-Sisi, is a longtime groomed project by the CIA/Mi6, as well as were the Egyptian coup(s). Where's Abdel Fattah Saeed Hussein Khalil now? President of Egypt.

George Galloway & Lauren Booth: Concentration Camp Gaza

 

[libertyjam]

Old lady arrives home finds Jewish settlers have stolen her house

-The description under the you tube video-
The Israelis have the right to take any non-jews land as soon as they leave it.

Twenty settlers ( with sleeping bags), accompanied by private armed security and backed by Israeli police forces, entered an extension of the Palestinian house, and started clearing it of the familys belongings.

One Palestinian resident, Khamis al-Gawi, has been arrested shortly after the settlers arrived, and is still being held at a local police station. Two international activists, American and Swedish nationals, who were filming the settlers taking over the house were also arrested by the police and their video cameras confiscated.

 

[twomp]

Old lady arrives home finds Jewish settlers have stolen her house

-The description under the you tube video-
The Israelis have the right to take any non-jews land as soon as they leave it.

Twenty settlers ( with sleeping bags), accompanied by private armed security and backed by Israeli police forces, entered an extension of the Palestinian house, and started clearing it of the familys belongings.

One Palestinian resident, Khamis al-Gawi, has been arrested shortly after the settlers arrived, and is still being held at a local police station. Two international activists, American and Swedish nationals, who were filming the settlers taking over the house were also arrested by the police and their video cameras confiscated.

The real victim here are the Israelis. Do you know how much money they had to spend to blow up all those houses? Poor Israelis.

Is that better OP?

 

[donnay]

bribe and blackmail Politicians,, own the media,, and they are profitable to Military contractors.

FIFY

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

anyone know how to make the above color map a smaller size?

Grab any article or picture on the internet... resize, link, etc... http://kwout.com/

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

The real victim here are the Israelis. Do you know how much money they had to spend to blow up all those houses? Poor Israelis.

Is that better OP?

Don't you mean, US Taxpayers that fund all this theft and terror? Who's US government vetoes every single U.N. charge, sanction, and crime, holding Israel responsible for crimes against humanity?

BTW, The WIKILEAKS release of the 'Kissinger Cables' from the early 1970s, direct from the classified US embassy cables, proved the Israel government has no intention of letting any race or government stop their land grab from Palestinians and the final solution, which is to take all lands in the Levant a far east to the Euphrates/Gulf.

There's even mentioning of the removing all other religious symbols from the lands, in their "Judaification" of Israel. Those aren't by word or media, that's in the classified US Tel Aviv Embassy cables to Washington DC US State Department HQ. I also recall in the Kissinger cables of destroying and building over a Greek orthodox church. So it's not just Palestinians/Arabs but the extermination of all other Semites/icons/villages not approved by the operation Knesset.

That shows you the facts and operations of an apartheid state run by sociopathic racists...

 

[DFF]

Massachusetts, many in the Liberty movement aren't "off" regarding Israel; they're just the opposite, hence why you started this pro-Israel propaganda thread.

 

[MichaelDavis]

Stopped reading here. For fuck sake. Fuck off. We are not anti-semites or do we hate Israelis.

Then you should stop acting like it.

 

[DFF]

Well, I can't speak for green73, but I can't stand Israel and I'm unapologetic about it...to me, given all the harm that it's caused in the Middle East and to the US, Israel is like the ring of Sauron...or the Beast in Revelations that deceives the whole world.

No hyperbole, it's truly this wicked and troublesome.