Is Social Security Welfare?

If you do not care what I think, then I will, of course, not waste my time telling you all my wonderful ideas about phasing out the SS.

Your attitude towards seniors is insulting and demeaning. You may keep thinking of them as little children that depend on CaptLouAlbano to take care of them. I will keep thinking of them as capable adult human beings, deserving of a million times more respect than that.

Keeping them as little children would be saying that one wants to program to continue as is in perpetuity. That is not what I support and it was not the Paul plan either. The federal government creates problems when it tries to solve problems. It is our job as activists, working in conjunction with legislators to find solutions to the mess than government has made, without causing further problems. The Paul plan does this.
 
.................Your attitude towards seniors is insulting and demeaning. ...................


Oh PULEASE stop trying to ape the gungrabbers shame the gun owners lingo with your save the seniors by scrapping the SS 90% of them trust for over half their income spiel.
That your line of bull is in fact a line of bull by a sort who could care less about the elderly is disgustingly obvious.
 
Mathematically, there is only one way to fix SS. And that's cuts. Big cuts. But it's simply not going to happen.

The dollar is going to collapse, and many of these seniors will likely starve in the aftermath. That's the unfortunate reality.

providing a scenario in America where people starve doesn't seem too credible.
 
providing a scenario in America where people starve doesn't seem too credible.

Just consider how many people are on the government dole. SS, food stamps, government jobs, etc.

When the dollar collapses, and the government literally cannot afford those things anymore - or hyperinflates these expenses into toilet paper - how exactly are these people going to feed themselves?

People will most likely starve. If not, it will be because of the support of friends, family, private charity, or international assistance.

Our government, though, will soon be incapable of providing for these people.
 
Here's my solution to this problem. I know it's not going to happen, but neither is anybody else's suggestions :)


1) Federal Government declares bankruptcy and ends all Federal programs
2) Federal Government sells all of its assets
3) Give this money to everyone who has paid into SS, as fairly as possible

Done. Problem solved.

I don't think the government has even close to enough assets to pay back all of SS, but it should be enough to keep people off the streets.
 
Oh PULEASE stop trying to ape the gungrabbers shame the gun owners lingo with your save the seniors by scrapping the SS 90% of them trust for over half their income spiel.
That your line of bull is in fact a line of bull by a sort who could care less about the elderly is disgustingly obvious
.
Come now, that's a terrible bit of reasoning. All induction. helmuth believes the elderly are capable of taking care of themselves, therefore he is a Heartless Evil One (HEO) who doesn't care about the elderly. :rolleyes: This is why the SS debate goes nowhere most of the time. People bring emotional baggage to the debate where it really doesn't belong.
 
When the dollar collapses, and the government literally cannot afford those things anymore - or hyperinflates these expenses into toilet paper - how exactly are these people going to feed themselves?

Oh wait, my bad. "That couldn't happen here"
 
Oh PULEASE stop trying to ape the gungrabbers shame the gun owners lingo with your save the seniors by scrapping the SS 90% of them trust for over half their income spiel.
That your line of bull is in fact a line of bull by a sort who could care less about the elderly is disgustingly obvious.
I must admit I do not fully understand your post. I am not aware of any "gungrabber's lingo" with similarity to my line: "Your attitude towards seniors is insulting and demeaning." I am curious to read it, please. In any case, any aping was unintentional. Since gungrabbers have had quite a bit of success in persuasion, I have nothing against aping them. I just don't happen to have done it this time.

Are you also claiming that I do not care about the elderly? Far from it, I care about them enough to want to liberate them from the insidious undermining of character and, ultimately, enslavement that comes from dependence on a dole. You may not be aware of the evils of the dole. Believe me, it undermines and destroys those who receive it. It weakens and destroys the traditional family bonds and relationships. It sets up the state as benefactor, as provider, and as God. It has a million unintended, or perhaps intended, consequences, all of them bad. We need to end all dole systems, and that includes the biggest one of all: that monstrosity called the SS. Only thus can we help to do away with the curse of idleness, abolish the evils of the dole, and once more establish industry, thrift, and self-respect amongst our people.
 
You're not very good at the Soros manipulative crap so give it up fool.

And YES you don't give a shit about the elderly as real people. Your wish to starve them to save their dignity is vile.
 
You're not very good at the Soros manipulative crap so give it up fool.
I do not know what this means. It seems like advice, though, so thank you for the advice!

And YES you don't give a shit about the elderly as real people. Your wish to starve them to save their dignity is vile.
Ah, I see your concern. You believe that those, like myself, who want to eliminate the SS feel maliciousness and enmity towards the dole-wards of the SS. This is understandable, since you see them as benefiting from the SS, and we're wanting to take away that beneficial influence. They get sent checks, right? How could that not be seen as benefiting?

But, crazy as it sounds, I do see the SS as not beneficial to them at all. It is not a blessing but a bane. Just handing someone money every month, for nothing, can destroy a person. It takes away their independence. That's unquestionable. Supporters of the SS just don't realize what an important virtue independence is, and how much of all the other aspects of a happy, well-balanced life rest on the foundation of and are wrapped up in individual independence. It's the same thing with the young, of course -- parents who spoil a child are ruining the child. Some of these older children staying at their parents house into their twenties should be told to move out. There's a place for tough love.

So I do not see doling out money/food-and-board/other-consideration for nothing to Person X as being helpful to Person X; I see it as destructive to him. It forms a relationship of co-dependency instead of a healthy relationship based on mutual independence. This is true of the 28-year-old ambition-less perpetual teenager laying at home playing video games, it is true of the black single mother living in the projects, and it is true of the old or disabled person living the retired life. Just because if I were the parent I might cut off the kid doesn't mean I wouldn't love him. Just because as a taxpayer I definitely want to cut off the single mother doesn't mean I don't care about her plight -- yes, a very real plight she would have ahead of her if the checks were cut off. Just because as a human being who cares about morality I want to cut off the retired individual from his stream of stolen funds doesn't mean I don't care about him. It isn't because of any malice that one wants to cut them off, it's because of love, and because it's the right thing to do. In the long run, you will be helping the dole-wards by freeing them from their wardship. They won't feel like that at the time. We can see that right here in this thread. No, they will yell and curse at you, throw a tantrum, and claim that you must hate them, or you would never be so cruel. But years later, they will probably thank you. You loved them enough to cut them off. You had the courage to do what was best, unswayed by their outrage and their demands.
 
Your wish to starve them to save their dignity is vile.

How is not taking money from Peter and giving it to Paul the same as starving Paul?

If you want to give more money to seniors, then do it. Nobody's saying you should be prevented from that.
 
your save the seniors by scrapping the SS 90% of them trust for over half their income spiel.

What's your source for this claim? Retirees are the wealthiest age group next to those who are just about to retire.

What you are advocating is taking money out of the incomes of poor working people, 100% of whom need that money, and giving it to rich retirees, very few of whom do.
 
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As I mentioned in previous post on this thread we have to restore property rights to people for this to be a free nation. To that end Social Security/Medicare has to be placed on a trajectory of elimination. While I would prefer to just cut it out overnight (kind of like having surgery to remove a tumor), I think to get a broad enough support to end the program it will have to be phased out over a number of years.

My plan:

1. Privatize Social Security/Medicare entirely so that the federal govt is no longer involved in it in anyway.
2. Allow anyone that chooses to opt-out of both programs may do so at anytime and any age. This IMO would restore property rights by making the program voluntary.
3. Begin to increase the eligibility age for retirement by 1/2 of a year each year until it gets to current life expectancy.
4. Means test both programs so that if you're super wealthy like Buffett, you do not get Medicare or Social Security. In other words, if you make more than a million per year or have $5 million or above in assets you will not receive Social Security or Medicare. This would probably reduce the expenditure of the program by tens of billions each year.
5. I would encourage people who on SS/Medicare to voluntary stop receiving benefits with the caveat that they would not have to pay any federal income taxes on wages or unearned income on their investments, would not have to pay any FICA taxes, and they would not have to pay any capital gains taxes. This would IMO keep a large number of people out of the system by encouraging them through tax incentive to remain in the workforce or to live off their investment returns.
6. Sell off govt assets so that the money would devoted to paying current retires or creating a REAL FUND to have in place when revenues do not meet expenditures.
7. Cut spending dramatically by bringing all forces home from overseas, eliminate foreign aid, eliminate the CIA/NSA programs, cut corporate welfare. This money once the deficit has been eliminated would be used to repay the SS/Medicare trust fund so that it would have real trust fund in place to pay beneficiaries.
 
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I do not know what this means. It seems like advice, though, so thank you for the advice!

Ah, I see your concern. You believe that those, like myself, who want to eliminate the SS feel maliciousness and enmity towards the dole-wards of the SS. This is understandable, since you see them as benefiting from the SS, and we're wanting to take away that beneficial influence. They get sent checks, right? How could that not be seen as benefiting?

But, crazy as it sounds, I do see the SS as not beneficial to them at all. It is not a blessing but a bane. Just handing someone money every month, for nothing, can destroy a person. It takes away their independence. That's unquestionable. Supporters of the SS just don't realize what an important virtue independence is, and how much of all the other aspects of a happy, well-balanced life rest on the foundation of and are wrapped up in individual independence. It's the same thing with the young, of course -- parents who spoil a child are ruining the child. Some of these older children staying at their parents house into their twenties should be told to move out. There's a place for tough love.

So I do not see doling out money/food-and-board/other-consideration for nothing to Person X as being helpful to Person X; I see it as destructive to him. It forms a relationship of co-dependency instead of a healthy relationship based on mutual independence. This is true of the 28-year-old ambition-less perpetual teenager laying at home playing video games, it is true of the black single mother living in the projects, and it is true of the old or disabled person living the retired life. Just because if I were the parent I might cut off the kid doesn't mean I wouldn't love him. Just because as a taxpayer I definitely want to cut off the single mother doesn't mean I don't care about her plight -- yes, a very real plight she would have ahead of her if the checks were cut off. Just because as a human being who cares about morality I want to cut off the retired individual from his stream of stolen funds doesn't mean I don't care about him. It isn't because of any malice that one wants to cut them off, it's because of love, and because it's the right thing to do. In the long run, you will be helping the dole-wards by freeing them from their wardship. They won't feel like that at the time. We can see that right here in this thread. No, they will yell and curse at you, throw a tantrum, and claim that you must hate them, or you would never be so cruel. But years later, they will probably thank you. You loved them enough to cut them off. You had the courage to do what was best, unswayed by their outrage and their demands.

A 20-something pothead and a single mother in the projects are quite different than a 65+ year old, with the older the age obviously the less likely able to perform any worthwhile labor. I'm sure if you asked a current 65 year old in ten years, after having ended SS, whether they were happy we didn't degrade them with SS checks, they'd probably tell you to F off and that they had paid into all their working life.

providing a scenario in America where people starve doesn't seem too credible.

Couldn't say it better myself. Nothing wrong with having that sort of rigid philosophy though.
 
A 20-something pothead and a single mother in the projects are quite different than a 65+ year old, with the older the age obviously the less likely able to perform any worthwhile labor. I'm sure if you asked a current 65 year old in ten years, after having ended SS, whether they were happy we didn't degrade them with SS checks, they'd probably tell you to F off and that they had paid into all their working life.

Couldn't say it better myself. Nothing wrong with having that sort of rigid philosophy though.
I know that the typical 65 year old person would have this reaction. It's very emotionally draining to be lied to for so long-chasing a pot of gold that isn't there. The problem is reconciling this person's emotional reaction with reality. If I fell for a ponzi scheme and followed it to the bitter end only to find I'd been scammed, you wouldn't pay me for it would you? Highly unlikely. The money just isn't there. Now, if you'd like to make a cutoff point at X age and print off the money they have had stolen from them, fine. The problem becomes dealing with the inflation that comes with that. You'll have your loot, but it'll be wildly inflated. That is a more rational solution than trying to keep the Big Lie going, though.
 
Just consider how many people are on the government dole. SS, food stamps, government jobs, etc.

When the dollar collapses, and the government literally cannot afford those things anymore - or hyperinflates these expenses into toilet paper - how exactly are these people going to feed themselves?

People will most likely starve. If not, it will be because of the support of friends, family, private charity, or international assistance.

Our government, though, will soon be incapable of providing for these people.

England used to run the world. Now look at it. It's doing decent. I think we will also pull through.
 
I know that the typical 65 year old person would have this reaction. It's very emotionally draining to be lied to for so long-chasing a pot of gold that isn't there. The problem is reconciling this person's emotional reaction with reality. If I fell for a ponzi scheme and followed it to the bitter end only to find I'd been scammed, you wouldn't pay me for it would you? Highly unlikely. The money just isn't there. Now, if you'd like to make a cutoff point at X age and print off the money they have had stolen from them, fine. The problem becomes dealing with the inflation that comes with that. You'll have your loot, but it'll be wildly inflated. That is a more rational solution than trying to keep the Big Lie going, though.

okay so i didnt read all thirty pages of this thread, but this more recent post is pretty much how i feel. This is a welfare program. If we want welfare programs, budget the damn things and pay for them like you always have. Be transparent. Tell the taxpayers what it costs every year (which is probably already out there) and find the damn money to pay for it.

Quit making promises. There is no money in the trust fund. Its just a pile of IOUs printed on dead trees.

end the 'tax' that is 'earmarked' as funding 'the trust'. or just call it an income tax. Dont make promises. Dont tell someone that they will get benefits 40 years from now. Maybe give me an option to "not" pay for this tax. If I chose not to, then the gov't will never pay me this welfare. Give the taxpayers a choice. Id probably opt out and try to find something better to do with my money then thinking I might get some welfare 40 years from now. Hell I may even just party hard and die at age 55. At least I had fun and I didnt get ripped off by a welfare program promise
 
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