Is Social Security Welfare?

[heavenlyboy34]

Why should we depend on the churches? The libertarian community would surely show it's humanitarian stripes.

I don't think he meant that the libertarian community wouldn't help. It's just that churches and charities generally make it a part of their mission statement to care for the needy, unlike regular people.

 

[otherone]

There I go being a collectivist again.

Using the term "collectivist" incorrectly doesn't make you a collectivist.

 

[truelies]

.......................
I'll say it again, if the president were to make a special speech in January 2013 and announce that SS would be eliminated this year in order to save us from a debt crisis, ....................

all that would happen is his removal from Office within weeks if not days.

 

[LibForestPaul]

I'll play my "when I was young" card on this point. When I was young, you didn't have kids living in their parents basement, getting high all day and playing video games till they were in their mid 20's. Sure it is stereotypical, but you all know they do exist in quite decent numbers.

Most kids worked during high school. When you got out of school you either went into the military, college or went into the workforce. Yes, we had factory jobs back then, but entry level jobs were still entry level jobs. While we don't have the factory jobs today in those numbers, there are still jobs out there where you can start out from the bottom, learn and work your way up. I tend to think that the instant gratification of today's society contributes to the reason there are a lot of young folks spinning their wheels - ie. they want the big money jobs right from the start and don't want to put the time and work in to building a career. Again, stereotypical, but they do exist.

How many outsourcing deals were going on when you were young? How many visas and illegals were here when you were young?

Again, typically old people. Where's my bennies, its not my fault. It's always someone's elses. Same with cops, and teachers, and government workers, and welfare mothers, and illegals. Its not my fault.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

Say congress did allow people to opt out, and say that 80-90% of the people who opted out managed to secured their retirement themselves (TBH, I think that may be hoping for too much judging by the prevalence of irresponsible Americans) what do we do with the other 10-20%? Its easy to say churches or charities could take care of them, but nothing in today's world hints at that being a realistic. Do we let them die? Do we let them apply for food stamps, housing benefits, heating benefits, etc, and they just don't receive a monthly SS check? Does it make sense to go that route, absolving them of any responsibility for contributing to their retirement?

I'm with you guys in that I feel opting out would allow me to retire earlier, would let me (rightfully so) spend my money how I please. But without the elimination of the social safety net (which I wouldn't support) I guess I don't see a clear benefit, dollars and sense wise. Its one of those things where I'd like to benefit from such a proposal (opting out of SS), but wouldn't want to be stuck paying for other peoples welfare because we gave them the option to not contribute towards their latter life while they had an income. A lot of similarities between the benefits and harms of SS and Obamacare programs IMO.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Say congress did allow people to opt out, and say that 80-90% of the people who opted out managed to secured their retirement themselves (TBH, I think that may be hoping for too much judging by the prevalence of irresponsible Americans) what do we do with the other 10-20%? Its easy to say churches or charities could take care of them, but nothing in today's world hints at that being a realistic. Do we let them die? Do we let them apply for food stamps, housing benefits, heating benefits, etc, and they just don't receive a monthly SS check? Does it make sense to go that route, absolving them of any responsibility for contributing to their retirement?

I'm with you guys in that I feel opting out would allow me to retire earlier, would let me (rightfully so) spend my money how I please. But without the elimination of the social safety net (which I wouldn't support) I guess I don't see a clear benefit, dollars and sense wise. Its one of those things where I'd like to benefit from such a proposal (opting out of SS), but wouldn't want to be stuck paying for other peoples welfare because we gave them the option to not contribute towards their latter life while they had an income. A lot of similarities between the benefits and harms of SS and Obamacare programs IMO.

The more I think about this, the more it seems there needs to be some sort of phase-out. There's such a huge number of people reliant on it that it's part of the economy and a number of businesses build their models around that. If nothing happens, there's definitely going to be lots of people hurt. The solution is going to have to come from regular people IMO, because no politician is going to touch that Third Rail.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I'll play my "when I was young" card on this point. When I was young, you didn't have kids living in their parents basement, getting high all day and playing video games till they were in their mid 20's. Sure it is stereotypical, but you all know they do exist in quite decent numbers.

Most kids worked during high school. When you got out of school you either went into the military, college or went into the workforce. Yes, we had factory jobs back then, but entry level jobs were still entry level jobs. While we don't have the factory jobs today in those numbers, there are still jobs out there where you can start out from the bottom, learn and work your way up. I tend to think that the instant gratification of today's society contributes to the reason there are a lot of young folks spinning their wheels - ie. they want the big money jobs right from the start and don't want to put the time and work in to building a career. Again, stereotypical, but they do exist.

I do not disagree with you. I think the trend you have identified is real.

I do think that this post is totally changing the subject. But perhaps I have missed the point somehow (very possible). What connection were you making between the unfortunate laziness of the young and Socialist Security? I do not understand. Please explain the connection. I do not see it.

Seriously, Captain, I am interested to know your reply to my earlier questions. I believe that it's insulting and degrading to old folks to put them on the dole; to give them a stipend like little children. Do you also believe this is insulting and degrading? I value rugged individualism and self-responsibility. Are these values which you share?

Do you believe, like me, that people should be left alone rather than meddled with, coddled, and treated like children? Even, and perhaps especially, when they have lived a good many years longer and have a great deal more wisdom and experience than those presuming to solve their problems?

I want to get an idea of what you value and what you believe as a starting point for conversation. Feel free to oblige, or not, as you choose.

 

[TheTexan]

The more I think about this, the more it seems there needs to be some sort of phase-out. There's such a huge number of people reliant on it that it's part of the economy and a number of businesses build their models around that. If nothing happens, there's definitely going to be lots of people hurt. The solution is going to have to come from regular people IMO, because no politician is going to touch that Third Rail.

Unfortunately, the solution is going to come from foreign bankers. When they decide to crash the dollar, they will have "fixed" this problem for us. And probably not in a way CaptLouAlbano would like.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Seriously, Captain, I am interested to know your reply to my earlier questions....I want to get an idea of what you value and what you believe as a starting point for conversation.

This goes for everyone, by the way, especially if you find yourself disagreeing with my posts on this thread. How do you feel about rugged individualism, personal responsibility, and the dignity of the individual?

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

This goes for everyone, by the way, especially if you find yourself disagreeing with my posts on this thread. How do you feel about rugged individualism, personal responsibility, and the dignity of the individual?

I believe in all three of those of course. I think the SS system has been problematic from the start. As one who considers myself to be an intellectual descendant of the Old Right, I believe that all of the New Deal programs should not have have been implemented in the first place. However, when facing the issue at hand dealing with the theory of it all is pointless. It's been in place now since 1935 - arguing over whether it should have been started is pointless.

What I look for is practical solutions to address the problem and phase out the system without causing any greater problems along the way. Whether or not SS is moral, ethical is not the primary concern for us who are working within the political system to solve the issue. What is of greatest importance is how we get rid of SS without leaving millions to fend for themselves.

The facts are pretty simple. You have millions of seniors who are on the system and rightly or wrongly, the money they receive from SS is a sizable portion of their income. The gov't lied to them, and as we become more and more a part of the gov't we need to fix the problem - not simply blame it on those who came before us and walk away from it all.

As I said before many times, if conservatives and libertarians wish to take over the reigns of the federal government and restore our nation to it's founding principles we bear the responsibility of fixing the mess that those before us have created. It is unrealistic to think that we can wave a magic wand, eliminate programs and wash our hands of any consequences that stem from that.

So I will ask you this: Let's boil it down to two types of seniors, all of which have paid into the system their entire working life with the understanding that they would receive money back from the gov't at age 65 (or whatever age they chose to start collecting). The first group is made up of people where a portion of their income as seniors is made up of SS (for example they get 1500/mo from SS and 1500/month from a pension); the other group are folks like myself who have a decent retirement savings and still generate income, for that group the SS payments they receive act as a discount on the federal taxes they are paying on their income (for example the 1500 they receive from SS reduces their tax liability by 1500/mo).

How then do you remove the system without doing undo harm to those two classes of recipients?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

This goes for everyone, by the way, especially if you find yourself disagreeing with my posts on this thread. How do you feel about rugged individualism, personal responsibility, and the dignity of the individual?

I find those to be admirable and virtuous traits. It is unfortunate that the political and crony classes have stamped those out of the popular/mainstream psyche. Look at how disincentivized TPTB have made such virtues. As I understand it, it is now easier to get an EBT card and fake a disability to get SSI checks than to get a job. (I know in my area decent entry-level jobs are nigh impossible to find, and even when an ad shows up in the paper, it's snapped up immediately)

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I believe in all three of those of course.

Oh, I don't think that answer was an "of course," at all! Many, many people do not believe in those things at all. I would say most people do not strongly and completely believe in them. For those people (the majority), their answer would have been a "yes, but...". I see no such disclaimer in your reply, so I guess you really believe in rugged individualism, personal responsibility, and the dignity of the individual.

Actually, I do see one "but" disclaiming your "yes" if I read far enough in your post. Eventually you start saying "but my belief in rugged individualism is pointless." Why is it pointless? Because you do not see a realistic political path for getting to a place where rugged individualism is actually implemented. So let's talk about that.

I think that you're right: there is no realistic hope for electoral politics to solve this problem. Probably 90% of people or more do not want to repeal the SS. In such a climate of opinion, the chances of the SS ending are very, very low. Moreover, that much public opinion has a massive inertia -- it will not change overnight. So we're stuck with this evil socialist pension scheme for the near future.

Here's the thing: all of the other people in this thread with whom you are at loggerheads would also agree with this assessment. They all understand that there won't be a national referendum repealing the SS any time soon. So how come they're at loggerheads with you?

I think it's because you have not made clear enough that you really do support repealing the SS. You have made too many socialist-style arguments about starving people and caring about the downtrodden. These arguments make them unsure about you. They think "well, that's a standard-issue socialist argument -- this guy must be a socialist on the issue of Socialist Security, even though he supports liberty on other issues. Can't he see how inconsistent he's being?"

So I invite you now to clear the air. Once and for all: do you, CaptLouAlbano, support the repeal of Socialist Security? Make it clear. Make it beyond dispute. Wax a bit eloquent about how much you hate and despise this program. Convince everyone you're one of us in that 10% who want to repeal this thing and not in the 90% who do not want to repeal it. Let's do that first, then we can get to the rest of your post.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

I support the repeal of Social Security through a means by which we protect those who currently receive it, provide a private market transition those who are going to receive it in future years, and provide a means for those who are under a certain age to opt out of the system. Therefore, I support the plan that Ron Paul proposed and would likely support something similar.

I have stated this before in one way or another in posts 16, 27, 75, 139, 182, 210, and 238

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Captain, I am not hearing your passionate hate of this evil program ring through. Make it clear. Make it beyond dispute. Wax a bit eloquent about how much you hate and despise this program. Why you hate it. Why you think it's monstrous. How it's destroying America. Convince everyone you're one of us in that 10% who want to repeal this thing and not in the 90% who do not want to repeal it. You haven't even convinced me, and I should be easy. Your post above makes you sound like a milquetoast, wishy-washy, compromising wimp. Just saying. You can do better. If you really hate socialism, that is.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Captain, I am not hearing your passionate hate of this evil program ring through. Make it clear. Make it beyond dispute. Wax a bit eloquent about how much you hate and despise this program. Why you hate it. Why you think it's monstrous. How it's destroying America. Convince everyone you're one of us in that 10% who want to repeal this thing and not in the 90% who do not want to repeal it. You haven't even convinced me, and I should be easy. Your post above makes you sound like a milquetoast, wishy-washy, compromising wimp. Just saying. You can do better. If you really hate socialism, that is.

Why, so I can get a pat on the back from someone on an internet forum? I enjoy engaging in discussions on issues to find real practical solutions and ideas. I am a sitting committeeman in SC, so I use some of what I gather here in my committee work. But I have no desire to go off on a tangent about how much I dislike the program for your amusement.

So I will ask you. Do you support the Paul plan? If not then what is your plan to deal with Social Security?

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I do not think you do dislike the program. Neither do the other posters on this thread. That is the problem. If you, in fact, do hate the program, then you should let us know, in the interest of effectively communicating. Until you do that, there will be a barrier. Your posts will all be useless. We will not be understanding each other. Either that, or we will be understanding you all too well.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

I do not think you do dislike the program. Neither do the other posters on this thread. That is the problem. If you, in fact, do hate the program, then you should let us know, in the interest of effectively communicating. Until you do that, there will be a barrier. Your posts will all be useless. We will not be understanding each other. Either that, or we will be understanding you all too well.

I have had some fine discussions in here with others, and some have made some interesting proposals and ideas. I gather what I need from here, if that is not to your liking then so be it.

So to be really frank, I honestly do not care what you think about me or how you evaluate my desire to eliminate the program.

 

[TheTexan]

Mathematically, there is only one way to fix SS. And that's cuts. Big cuts. But it's simply not going to happen.

The dollar is going to collapse, and many of these seniors will likely starve in the aftermath. That's the unfortunate reality.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Mathematically, there is only one way to fix SS. And that's cuts. Big cuts. But it's simply not going to happen.

The dollar is going to collapse, and many of these seniors will likely starve in the aftermath. That's the unfortunate reality.

I think the possibility of that does exist, which is why the Fed should be our major issue. And considering the fact that we have gained a lot of support on that issue, it should be one we move forward with.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

So to be really frank, I honestly do not care what you think about me or how you evaluate my desire to eliminate the program.

If you do not care what I think, then I will, of course, not waste my time telling you all my wonderful ideas about phasing out the SS.

Your attitude towards seniors is insulting and demeaning. You may keep thinking of them as little children that depend on CaptLouAlbano to take care of them. I will keep thinking of them as capable adult human beings, deserving of a million times more respect than that.