Is Social Security Welfare?

[cheapseats]

Pretty much what you are talking to are the libertarian la la land people. They live in their dream world of libertarian philosophy, quoting the books of their demigods. They cannot look at human nature and deduct that their utopia might not just mesh with it. Their mind set pretty much matches that of Mao and Stalin, to hell with the short term consequences of their forced immediate conversion to the utopia libertarian state. If 8 million old people unable to work die, to bad! It very much reminds me of the cultural revolution Mao inspired with the youth in China. Kill the old people they are a drag on society and are to fault for all the problems in society. Instead of Mao's little red book, they wave Mises etc.

CIRCULAR REFERENCING, someone once called their debate-via-links.

There is no trick to making theories work IN THEORY. Who subscribes to theories that don't even work IN THEORY?

My father used to dismiss it as "BOOK SMART, LIFE STUPID."

Human nature just seems to keep repeating itself from one generation to the next.

History repeats because Human Nature abides.

 

[dinosaur]

Pretty much what you are talking to are the libertarian la la land people. They live in their dream world of libertarian philosophy, quoting the books of their demigods. They cannot look at human nature and deduct that their utopia might not just mesh with it. Their mind set pretty much matches that of Mao and Stalin, to hell with the short term consequences of their forced immediate conversion to the utopia libertarian state. If 8 million old people unable to work die, to bad! It very much reminds me of the cultural revolution Mao inspired with the youth in China. Kill the old people they are a drag on society and are to fault for all the problems in society. Instead of Mao's little red book, they wave Mises etc.
Human nature just seems to keep repeating itself from one generation to the next.

Exactly the opposite. There is nothing utopian about ending SS, when throughout most of history people have lived without it. You can't say something is a dream world, when it happens to be the normal way of life throughout most of history. And the death and chaos will not come from ending it, it will come when we have a severe crisis brought on by our destructive addiction to spending.

How can you say that it is force to end force? An example of force would be the confiscation of people's property from the SS tax. End it and the economy gets better and people return to their traditional state of taking care of parents without the government middleman telling them exactly how to do it.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Pretty much what you are talking to are the libertarian la la land people. They live in their dream world of libertarian philosophy, quoting the books of their demigods. They cannot look at human nature and deduct that their utopia might not just mesh with it. Their mind set pretty much matches that of Mao and Stalin, to hell with the short term consequences of their forced immediate conversion to the utopia libertarian state. If 8 million old people unable to work die, to bad! It very much reminds me of the cultural revolution Mao inspired with the youth in China. Kill the old people they are a drag on society and are to fault for all the problems in society. Instead of Mao's little red book, they wave Mises etc.
Human nature just seems to keep repeating itself from one generation to the next.

I suppose the only thing that concerns me is that some of these folks are part of the political movement. The last thing I want standing next to me at a GOP committee meaning is someone saying that the way to solve the SS issue is for 90 year old widows to go out and get a job.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Exactly the opposite. There is nothing utopian about ending SS, when throughout most of history people have lived without it. You can't say something is a dream world, when it happens to be the normal way of life throughout most of history. And the death and chaos will not come from ending it, it will come when we have a severe crisis brought on by our destructive addiction to spending.

How can you say that it is force to end force? An example of force would be the confiscation of people's property from the SS tax. End it and the economy gets better and people return to their traditional state of taking care of parents without the government middleman telling them exactly how to do it.

You still are speaking in hypothetical terms. What do you do with the 8 million or so seniors I referenced before who in your "end it now" approach who are left to live on 2 grand per year? I am giving you a very realistic consequence to the elimination of SS. Solve it.

 

[klamath]

Exactly the opposite. There is nothing utopian about ending SS, when throughout most of history people have lived without it. You can't say something is a dream world, when it happens to be the normal way of life throughout most of history. And the death and chaos will not come from ending it, it will come when we have a severe crisis brought on by our destructive addiction to spending.

How can you say that it is force to end force? An example of force would be the confiscation of people's property from the SS tax. End it and the economy gets better and people return to their traditional state of taking care of parents without the government middleman telling them exactly how to do it.

In the past people didn't plan, pay and base their life on a system to a point in their lives where they can no longer work and change things.

 

[dinosaur]

In the past people didn't plan, pay and base their life on a system to a point in their lives where they can no longer work and change things.

Why on earth would people plan and base their lives on a government promise? Seems to me a recipe for failure.

 

[klamath]

Why on earth would people plan and base their lives on a government promise? Seems to me a recipe for failure.

Why do people make mistakes?

 

[dinosaur]

Why do people make mistakes?

Right, and sometimes consequences happen. It would be nice to protect people from these consequences. But we can't. We can not protect people from the consequences, but we can make them less horrible if we stop digging the hole.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Right, and sometimes consequences happen. It would be nice to protect people from thise consequences. But we can't. We can not protect people from the consequences, but we can make them less horrible if we stop digging the hole.

But if we (meaning libertarians and traditional conservatives) wish to take over the government and change things, we need to clean up the mess that those before us left behind. We don't wash out hands of it and say, "oh well this program was unconstitutional, screw everyone who has been effected by it"

If someone had a cancerous tumor in their leg, the proper thing to do would be to remove the tumor, treat any remaining cancer, and have the patient go through rehab so that he is restored to his normal life.

The "end SS immediately, damn the consequences approach" is akin to taking the same cancer patient, cutting off his leg with a hacksaw and walking away saying "I got rid of the cancer" ignoring the fact that he is lying there bleeding to death.

 

[dinosaur]

But if we (meaning libertarians and traditional conservatives) wish to take over the government and change things, we need to clean up the mess that those before us left behind. We don't wash out hands of it and say, "oh well this program was unconstitutional, screw everyone who has been effected by it"

If someone had a cancerous tumor in their leg, the proper thing to do would be to remove the tumor, treat any remaining cancer, and have the patient go through rehab so that he is restored to his normal life.

The "end SS immediately, damn the consequences approach" is akin to taking the same cancer patient, cutting off his leg with a hacksaw and walking away saying "I got rid of the cancer" ignoring the fact that he is lying there bleeding to death.

I agree, but that is not what I have been saying. I've been trying to make the point the there will be less suffering endured by people if we end it now. I've been trying to argue, that ending it is the life-saving surgury we need.

 

[TomtheTinker]

Yes.

 

[klamath]

Right, and sometimes consequences happen. It would be nice to protect people from these consequences. But we can't. We can not protect people from the consequences, but we can make them less horrible if we stop digging the hole.

And this is why I can never be a libertarian. If I see someone that made a mistake that will cost them their life if I don't help I can't turn my back. You obviously can. I can't. In this case it is life or death.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

I agree, but that is not what I have been saying. I've been trying to make the point the there will be less suffering endured by people if we end it now. I've been trying to argue, that ending it is the life-saving surgury we need.

Ok so answer the consequence I posed above. What about the 8 million or so people who would go from about 20K per year to around 2K per year.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

And this is why I can never be a libertarian. If I see someone that made a mistake that will cost them their life if I don't help I can't turn my back. You obviously can. I can't. In this case it is life or death.

Agreed. I am not one for labels, but I have long viewed libertarianism as being a philosophy far more so than being solution.

 

[dinosaur]

And this is why I can never be a libertarian. If I see someone that made a mistake that will cost them their life if I don't help I can't turn my back. You obviously can. I can't. In this case it is life or death.

OMG, no! I will not and would not turn my back! We will take care of people! But if we want to survive as a country, we have to man up and do it without a government middle-man.

 

[dinosaur]

Agreed. I am not one for labels, but I have long viewed libertarianism as being a philosophy far more so than being solution.

I've never considered myself libertarian, more of a Buchanan-type paleo. But there isn't much difference, those are only labels.

 

[klamath]

OMG, no! I will not and would not turn my back! We will take care of people! But if we want to survive as a country, we have to man up and do it without a government middle-man.

What IS your solution for the millions that suddenly have no means of support or the ability to work?

 

[dinosaur]

What IS your solution for the millions that suddenly have no means of support or the ability to work?

Cut out the government middle-man, and have children directly take care of their parents. Cut out the goverment middle man, and have communities directly take care of the elderly who have no children to take care of them.

Is the concern that we might not do it as well as government does, really worth flushing our country down the toilet over?

Edit: Or does the presence of a government middle man, give people the illusion of independence that they crave?

 

[klamath]

Cut out the government middle-man, and have children directly take care of their parents. Cut out the goverment middle man, and have communities directly take care of the elderly who have no children to take care of them.

Is the concern that we might not do it as well as government does, really worth flushing our country down the toilet over?

Edit: Or does the presence of a government middle man, give people the illusion of independence that they crave?

And when they aren't taken care of by the local community of their children and are dying? It is fine to say but many children didn't give a sh*t if their parents live or die and many have shown that very attitude on these forums.

 

[Katt]

Excelent job PTB, you stole all the wealth and have convinced all of us to accuse one another. It seems, so far, that you will get away, scott free.

Exactly.

The fact remains that this will end badly no matter what we do about it now. Our actions now can only contribute to or ease the suffering later, but there will be suffering either way.

Cut all the BS out of the federal budget (excessive military spending, corporate welfare, etc.) and start phasing out all entitlement programs, including social security, NOW.