"I Don't Want Free Will" by Martin Luther

there is a fine line between brainwashing control entity and a true loving wisdom intelligent entity ... free will per se will be indivisible with the acquired God wisdom ~ as to say if the limbic beast characteristic functions that interfere with this God wisdom today could be eliminated (satan) then the choice would be accepting the higher intelligent entity state of existence as great logic and the true choice to take ... (like a quantum leap to support the structures in the true loving wisdom philosophy of physics)
 
Heresy is the Calvinist believe that John 3:16 doesn't mean what it says. Heresy is the Calvinist belief that God only loves the "elect". And Calvinists can't deal with James 2.

James 2:14
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
James 2:24
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


But hey, keep kidding yourself into believing that you are the one that's Biblical when you are following your unbiblical belief.

Edit: And you really don't believe God is omnipotent because you don't believe God has the power to grant man freewill.

Why do you keep bringing up James when talking about predestination, God's will, election etc and not Bible verses that actually speak about these things?

I think we all know why.

I can deal with James 2 fine. Its not an explanation that you will accept though.
 
Last edited:
I'm an atheist, and it's remarkably easy to settle this debate. And it doesn't require twisting in the wind and hampering belief in free will or the power and authority of the alleged supreme being in the universe. All it requires is a look outside of complete linearity.

I mean, really. An omnipotent and omniscient being would be able to see the universe in all dimensions, which would allow itself to see all the evolutions (EVOLUTION, THE HORROR) your life takes with every choice, and every alternate path that would have occurred had another choice been made (and on and on and on). If none of those paths led to accepting said alleged supreme being, said supreme being would have knowledge of your damnation or whatever without negating free will in any manner - and this knowledge would necessarily arrive from its omnipotence and omniscience.
 
Last edited:
Why do you keep bringing up James when talking about predestination, God's will, election etc and not Bible verses that actually speak about these things?

I think we all know why.

I can deal with James 2 fine. Its not an explanation that you will accept though.

And I can deal with your interpretations of the so called "predestination verses" just fine. It's not an explanation that you will accept though. Once your get that through your skull that other people can and do understand the Bible in ways that are different from you but are not "heretical" you won't continue to make asinine and offensive comments like the one I responded to.
 
I'm an atheist, and it's remarkably easy to settle this debate. And it doesn't require twisting in the wind and hampering belief in free will or the power and authority of the alleged supreme being in the universe. All it requires is a look outside of complete linearity.

I mean, really. An omnipotent and omniscient being would be able to see the universe in all dimensions, which would allow itself to see all the evolutions (EVOLUTION, THE HORROR) your life takes with every choice, and every alternate path that would have occurred had another choice been made (and on and on and on). If none of those paths led to accepting said alleged supreme being, said supreme being would have knowledge of your damnation or whatever without negating free will in any manner - and this knowledge would necessarily arrive from its omnipotence and omniscience.

Yeppers.
 
And I can deal with your interpretations of the so called "predestination verses" just fine. It's not an explanation that you will accept though. Once your get that through your skull that other people can and do understand the Bible in ways that are different from you but are not "heretical" you won't continue to make asinine and offensive comments like the one I responded to.

Just to be clear, I never said you were a heretic. I just think you're wrong. I said I consider people who don't believe God knows the future are heretics.
 
I'm an atheist, and it's remarkably easy to settle this debate. And it doesn't require twisting in the wind and hampering belief in free will or the power and authority of the alleged supreme being in the universe. All it requires is a look outside of complete linearity.

I mean, really. An omnipotent and omniscient being would be able to see the universe in all dimensions, which would allow itself to see all the evolutions (EVOLUTION, THE HORROR) your life takes with every choice, and every alternate path that would have occurred had another choice been made (and on and on and on). If none of those paths led to accepting said alleged supreme being, said supreme being would have knowledge of your damnation or whatever without negating free will in any manner - and this knowledge would necessarily arrive from its omnipotence and omniscience.

Sounds like Molinism, interesting philosophic view but unfortunately for the arminians its no where found in the Bible.

God knows the future, every single thing that will happen. This is so clearly taught throughout the whole Bible.

In Isiah 41 God puts the false gods / idols on trial and asks them to tell what has happened in the past and why. He also asks them to tell him what will happen in the future.

"
21 “Present your case,” the Lord says.
“Bring forward your strong arguments,”
The King of Jacob says.
22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place;
As for the former events, declare what they were,
That we may consider them and know their outcome.
Or announce to us what is coming;
23 Declare the things that are going to come afterward,
That we may know that you are gods;
Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.
24 Behold, you are of [h]no account,
And your work amounts to nothing;
He who chooses you is an abomination."

-----------

In Psalm 139 it is shown how God knows every little thing the psalmist will do.

"
1 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for [I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You."

----------


In John's Gospel, Jesus says that he knows who will believe and not believe in him,

"John 6

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘ And they shall all be taught of God.’

...

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
"

No one can come to Jesus unless the father "draws" (in Hebrew it can literally mean "compel" and is used that way in other verses of the Bible) him.

----------

In Romans, Paul explains that God choose Jacob over Esau not for anything they did for they not yet even been born and had not done anything good or bad.

"Romans 9

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “ The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “ Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
"

God did so because of his own will and desire and not anything that man does.
 
Last edited:
Many are called but few are chosen.

We cannot save ourselves, but we can make ourselves "unelectable".

Faith without works is dead. The works don't save us, but they qualify us. Works are proof that the faith is real.

We must be doers of the word, and not hearers only.

As Martin Luther said, in this regard we are often like drunkards trying to ride a horse. After falling off of the horse on the right side (works only) we then remount, and determined not to repeat our mistake, we then fall off on the left side (faith only). Does it not make sense that true faith will be demonstrated by works. Therefore the works qualify us, but salvation still only comes by grace.
 
This makes me think of a slave saying that he's comfortable with his chains and doesn't desire freedom. A disturbing kind of mentality.
 
Just to be clear, I never said you were a heretic. I just think you're wrong. I said I consider people who don't believe God knows the future are heretics.

Except Molinism doesn't teach that God doesn't know the future. Quite the opposite in fact. It teaches God has seen all possible futures and actualizes one. (Kind of compatible with quantum mechanics in a way).

And I believe it's quite clear that John 3:16 means what it says. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Man's belief is the determining factor. God's love is offered, and Jesus atonement, is offered to everyone. Some choose to accept it, some choose to reject it.
 
Last edited:
Throughout the Bible God presents choices to man and leaves it to man to make the final decision and face the consequences of that choice. Here is but one of a myriad of examples:

Jeremiah 38:17-18 (New International Version)
Jeremiah 38:17-18

New International Version (NIV)

17 Then Jeremiah said to Zedekiah, “This is what the Lord God Almighty, the God of Israel, says: ‘If you surrender to the officers of the king of Babylon, your life will be spared and this city will not be burned down; you and your family will live. 18 But if you will not surrender to the officers of the king of Babylon, this city will be given into the hands of the Babylonians and they will burn it down; you yourself will not escape from them.’”


Edit: You keep tripping over your own false choice fallacy. Feeding the abscess didn't say God didn't know everything that would happen. Quite the opposite. Molinists don't say God doesn't know everything that will happen. Quite the opposite. But you keep trying to "prove" your case by pointing to Bible verses that simply prove what your opponents already know, which is God knows the future. You need to think in the 4th or 5th dimension to understand how limited your argument is.

Sounds like Molinism, interesting philosophic view but unfortunately for the arminians its no where found in the Bible.

God knows the future, every single thing that will happen. This is so clearly taught throughout the whole Bible.

In Isiah 41 God puts the false gods / idols on trial and asks them to tell what has happened in the past and why. He also asks them to tell him what will happen in the future.

"
21 “Present your case,” the Lord says.
“Bring forward your strong arguments,”
The King of Jacob says.
22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place;
As for the former events, declare what they were,
That we may consider them and know their outcome.
Or announce to us what is coming;
23 Declare the things that are going to come afterward,
That we may know that you are gods;
Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.
24 Behold, you are of [h]no account,
And your work amounts to nothing;
He who chooses you is an abomination."

-----------

In Psalm 139 it is shown how God knows every little thing the psalmist will do.

"
1 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for [I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You."

----------


In John's Gospel, Jesus says that he knows who will believe and not believe in him,

"John 6

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘ And they shall all be taught of God.’

...

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
"

No one can come to Jesus unless the father "draws" (in Hebrew it can literally mean "compel" and is used that way in other verses of the Bible) him.

----------

In Romans, Paul explains that God choose Jacob over Esau not for anything they did for they not yet even been born and had not done anything good or bad.

"Romans 9

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “ The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “ Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
"

God did so because of his own will and desire and not anything that man does.
 
Last edited:
Except Molinism doesn't teach that God doesn't know the future. Quite the opposite in fact. It teaches God has seen all possible futures and actualizes one. (Kind of compatible with quantum mechanics in a way).

And I believe it's quite clear that John 3:16 means what it says. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Man's belief is the determining factor. God's love is offered, and Jesus atonement, is offered to everyone. Some choose to accept it, some choose to reject it.

John 3:16 says nothing about who has the ability to be saved. It simply says that the Son was given so that the believing ones will have eternal life. There is nothing about ability in John 3:16.

In fact, there is particularity in John 3:16. Jesus was given only for the ones who believe, so that they will have eternal life. The ones who don't believe don't get eternal life, so the Son was not given for them.
 
I'm an atheist, and it's remarkably easy to settle this debate. And it doesn't require twisting in the wind and hampering belief in free will or the power and authority of the alleged supreme being in the universe. All it requires is a look outside of complete linearity.

I mean, really. An omnipotent and omniscient being would be able to see the universe in all dimensions, which would allow itself to see all the evolutions (EVOLUTION, THE HORROR) your life takes with every choice, and every alternate path that would have occurred had another choice been made (and on and on and on). If none of those paths led to accepting said alleged supreme being, said supreme being would have knowledge of your damnation or whatever without negating free will in any manner - and this knowledge would necessarily arrive from its omnipotence and omniscience.

No. Even in your atheistic-colored view of things (which very closely resembles Arminianism...which is to be expected because both atheism and Arminianism worship the will of man), you are missing an obvious logical problem:

If God is all-knowing (which you grant), then He knows every possible outcome and storyline of every possible world He could have created, yet He chose to create this one.

Even when you try to deny predestination, and only grant omniscience, you still cannot logically escape the choices that God makes. If He knows everything, then He knows every possible outcome of every possible world, yet He chose to create this one, knowing the outcome. The logic is inescapable.
 
I no longer believe in the Bible, but I'm very familiar with it. In no way is Calvinism compatible with the Bible. The Bible is full of contradictions with itself, but its contradictions with Calvinism are so blatant that I simply can't understand how anyone who has read the Bible could be a Calvinist.

The Bible teaches that people are judged by both works and faith. For example, in Revelations it says that "the dead were judged according to their conduct" (Rev 20:13). Similarly, one Gospel account shows Jesus welcoming people into heaven or sending them to hell based on how they treated the poor: "I was hungry, and you gave me food. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink," etc. (somewhere in Chapter 25 of Matthew). Elsewhere, Jesus says: "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

There ARE a few verses that do suggest that salvation is based on faith alone, contradicting the above; but these are very brief and are outweighed by the numerous verses like those above. Even so, Calvinism and similar "faith alone" theologies cherry-pick the verses that suggest salvation by faith alone and ignore all the verses that say salvation is at least partly based on conduct.

Similarly, if men's salvation were predestined, there would be no point in Jesus or anyone else exhorting repentance. If the doctrine of "irresistable grace" were biblical, Jesus would not have lamented the unwillingness of Jerusalem to follow him:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37)

This only scratches the surface, as my time to type here is limited. But the above should at least give some indication of how much Calvinism diverges from the plain text of the Bible.
The books of the bible were all written in different times and places, as well as in different languages for different audiences. I don't know enough about Calvinism to argue for or against it (though modern physics seems to verify determinism), but the claims you made here need better evidence to support them.
 
John 3:16 says nothing about who has the ability to be saved. It simply says that the Son was given so that the believing ones will have eternal life. There is nothing about ability in John 3:16.

In fact, there is particularity in John 3:16. Jesus was given only for the ones who believe, so that they will have eternal life. The ones who don't believe don't get eternal life, so the Son was not given for them.

Bollocks. There's nothing in John 3:16 to suggest the lie that Jesus was only given for the believing ones. And Sola_Fide/AquaBuddha, you aren't even being congruent with the YouTube argument you posted a while back regarding John 3:16. There your YouTube expert split hairs over the meaning of the word "world".

John 3:16 is clear. God loved the entire world. He gave His only Son for them (the entire world). But Jesus blood is only applied to those who accept it through their belief.
 
Bollocks. There's nothing in John 3:16 to suggest the lie that Jesus was only given for the believing ones. And Sola_Fide/AquaBuddha, you aren't even being congruent with the YouTube argument you posted a while back regarding John 3:16. There your YouTube expert split hairs over the meaning of the word "world".

John 3:16 is clear. God loved the entire world. He gave His only Son for them (the entire world). But Jesus blood is only applied to those who accept it through their belief.

Yes, the word "world" in Greek is used several different ways by John. In John 17, Jesus prays to the Father and says:

I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Jesus doesn't pray for the world, He only prays for the ones the Father gives Him out of the world.




But, to your misunderstanding of John 3:16, are you saying that God gave His Son so that the unbelieving ones will have eternal life? How does that make any sense? When you read that verse, why do you think it says the Son is given?
 
Yes, the word "world" in Greek is used several different ways by John. In John 17, Jesus prays to the Father and says:

Jesus doesn't pray for the world, He only prays for the ones the Father gives Him out of the world.

:rolleyes: You realize that you've just disproved your own point? The whole world represents the set of people that Jesus pulled the disciples out of. Exactly! So they were part of the world before He saved them! Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners in other words part of the world. In this instance Jesus didn't pray for the whole world. In some instances He didn't even pray for all of the disciples. He told Peter that He specifically prayed for him.

But, to your misunderstanding of John 3:16, are you saying that God gave His Son so that the unbelieving ones will have eternal life? How does that make any sense? When you read that verse, why do you think it says the Son is given?

I understand John 3:16 fine. You're the one making the ridiculous arguments. Like the above straw man. God gave His son so that everyone would have a chance at eternal life. And at everybody is an unbeliever at some point. That's why Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. The key is moving from being an unbeliever to a believer. And that comes from yielding to the Holy Spirit. That's a conscious decision we have to make for Christ. Which is why James 2:24 says we aren't saved by faith alone. Faith is an action word. It is made alive by works of faith. But not by works of the law. There is a difference ya know.
 
Last edited:
:rolleyes: You realize that you've just disproved your own point? The whole world represents the set of people that Jesus pulled the disciples out of. Exactly! So they were part of the world before He saved them! Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners in other words part of the world. In this instance Jesus didn't pray for the whole world. In some instances He didn't even pray for all of the disciples. He told Peter that He specifically prayed for him.


I understand John 3:16 fine. You're the one making the ridiculous arguments. Like the above straw man. God gave His son so that everyone would have a chance at eternal life. And at everybody is an unbeliever at some point. That's why Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. The key is moving from being an unbeliever to a believer. And that comes from yielding to the Holy Spirit. That's a conscious decision we have to make for Christ. Which is why James 2:24 says we aren't saved by faith alone. Faith is an action word. It is made alive by works of faith. But not by works of the law. There is a difference ya know.

Let's just see if we can follow the verse through.


John 3:16 NASB

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


When you read the above verse, why do you think it says that the Son was given? For what reason was the Son given?

It's not a trick question. Why do you think the Son was given? Because it surely does not say that the Son was given so that everyone has a chance to be saved. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible and it doesn't say it in John 3:16. It says the Son was given so that every believing one would have eternal life.

If you think the Son was given so that unbelievers would have eternal life, why would the verse directly contradict that?
 
Back
Top