I don't believe in Jesus Christ

[moostraks]

You can have this debate with yourself because I don't care to talk about who said what and who has their feelings hurt.

The original verse we were talking about was in Ephesians 2.



Does the Bible teach that we are by nature children of wrath and dead in our sins? Yes or no?

Does God make a dead man alive when He saves them? Yes or no?

So slander, complain when called on it, then act like you are the one taking the high road. Lol!

I see you are redirecting from the statement I made which you refuse to acknowledge. I have asked why it is that the creation would be greater than your god in regards to relationships with another. Why is it that we find it repulsive for an individual to decide upon someone he demands a relationship with to force them by threat of eternal harm or hold them captive against their will? A loving relationship is not made through violence and captivity. The Creator is great enough that while He could use force, He sacrificed so that the scales could be peeled off our eyes regarding our own foolishness and selfishness. He knocks, we open the door or ignore the knock.

And your point with Ephesians? What are you trying to reword it to say? The discussion is about a gift which was given to us of Love. I have not argued against ancestral sin. I just don't accept your total depravity position. As for alive, well my position is that the ones who don't start with love are dead now and later. Wrap yourself up with all the demands of a work to prove your high mental acuity. You think the rich in the earlier years of the church didn't know all the head knowledge of faith? Without love all the ranting is a moot point.

 

[moostraks]

FAIL

This is where many who call themselves Christians totally fail.

You are starting from a belief rather than an action. ('the gospel'=belief, love=action)

This is the exclusionary part, this is the arrogant part, this is the self-righteous part.

This is the part that says to other faiths "you are wrong", this is the part that says to people on different spiritual paths "you're going the wrong way, pal", this is the part that says "if you don't believe what I believe, you're gonna burn in hell for eternity"

that is just wrong on sooooo many levels.

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 22:36-39 KJV 1611

Jesus taught "Love", Paul taught "Gospel"

I'll go with Jesus on this one.


edit:
another way to put this is "Lead with your heart, not your head."
+rep moostraks (are you married? i think I'm in love with you)

:o Thank you!!! And sorry yes, I am married. The right one is there for you as long as you have love in your heart I believe.

 

[Sola_Fide]

So slander, complain when called on it, then act like you are the one taking the high road. Lol!

I see you are redirecting from the statement I made which you refuse to acknowledge. I have asked why it is that the creation would be greater than your god in regards to relationships with another. Why is it that we find it repulsive for an individual to decide upon someone he demands a relationship with to force them by threat of eternal harm or hold them captive against their will? A loving relationship is not made through violence and captivity. The Creator is great enough that while He could use force, He sacrificed so that the scales could be peeled off our eyes regarding our own foolishness and selfishness. He knocks, we open the door or ignore the knock.

And your point with Ephesians? What are you trying to reword it to say? The discussion is about a gift which was given to us of Love. I have not argued against ancestral sin. I just don't accept your total depravity position. As for alive, well my position is that the ones who don't start with love are dead now and later. Wrap yourself up with all the demands of a work to prove your high mental acuity. You think the rich in the earlier years of the church didn't know all the head knowledge of faith? Without love all the ranting is a moot point.

Ephesians 2:3-5 NASB

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

1. Is man dead in sin and by nature a child of wrath? YES or NO?

2. Does God's grace make a dead person alive? YES or NO?

 

[moostraks]

Case in point.

I disagree with you as I see this as a condemnation regarding someone you don't know the inner thoughts of as He does. Paul needs to be interpreted through Jesus and not the other way around. It is when you start with the head knowledge and attempt to define love you will likely end up getting it all wrong and the works become, as S_F constantly insists, undoable. If you start with love then work into what Paul talks about, you have the correct framework to understand how things work in a society based upon love and with love you grasp oh, for instance, why a headship veil is important. Just because a woman puts a prayer cap on does not mean she will love her husband or Creator for their unique attributes. However a woman who loves her husband or Creator for their unique attributes who is properly choosing to wear a veil will do so as an outward sign of her faith. This is but one of many contentious teachings for us by Paul.

 

[moostraks]

1. Is man dead in sin and by nature a child of wrath? YES or NO?

2. Does God's grace make a dead person alive? YES or NO?

I answered you. Read the post you are referencing You still, STILL, have not answered me. Ancestral sin-yes. Alive in Christ-yes those are who open the door AND hear His message of Love. If you don't have the 2 greatest commandments as were told to you by The Lord as your two greatest commandments then all of the rest of your beliefs are worthless.

ETA-worthless in a sense that you are wasting your time and need to reassess why you do what you do, any of it.

 

[erowe1]

I disagree with you as I see this as a condemnation regarding someone you don't know the inner thoughts of as He does.

It was a condemnation of the opinions that he expressed quite explicitly. There was no need to know any inner thoughts beyond the ones he explained. He was saying the very kinds of things I was talking about earlier. And you will notice that he is as clear about disagreeing with what I said as I am about disagreeing with what he said.

 

[moostraks]

It was a condemnation of the opinions that he expressed quite explicitly. There was no need to know any inner thoughts beyond the ones he explained. He was saying the very kinds of things I was talking about earlier. And you will notice that he is as clear about disagreeing with what I said as I am about disagreeing with what he said.

I took it more as a condemnation of his existence of faith. If I misinterpreted your comment then my apologies. I don't have a problem with his positions but i also don't think that the Creator is held captive to the writing of inspired text. When asked directly He gave us the two greatest commandments. I think the Creator had all the time in the world if He wanted to in regards to making a greater case of hurdles to overcome. Paul is often misinterpreted imo, and it is the stumbling blocks that others have made of his teachings that cause problems. So I understand when others choose to be red letter only. It isn't Paul's teachings that are at fault but a loveless interpretation of the faith.

 

[erowe1]

I took it more as a condemnation of his existence of faith. If I misinterpreted your comment then my apologies. I don't have a problem with his positions but i also don't think that the Creator is held captive to the writing of inspired text. When asked directly He gave us the two greatest commandments. I think the Creator had all the time in the world if He wanted to in regards to making a greater case of hurdles to overcome. Paul is often misinterpreted imo, and it is the stumbling blocks that others have made of his teachings that cause problems. So I understand when others choose to be red letter only. It isn't Paul's teachings that are at fault but a loveless interpretation of the faith.

I think he was saying that Paul's teachings ARE at fault. He can correct me if I'm wrong about that. And whereas you want to defend the existence of his faith, he seemed to be saying that faith isn't what matters. Notice his list of all the other religions, including atheists, in his response to me.

I don't want to get into a point-by-point rebuttal of what he said because I think that the position I presented in the post he repudiated was clear enough. I would just be stating the obvious. He and I are coming from opposite places, and he and I are both stating clearly enough what those are.

 

[bubbleboy]

.....did somebody fart?

 

[moostraks]

I think he was saying that Paul's teachings ARE at fault. He can correct me if I'm wrong about that. And whereas you want to defend the existence of his faith, he seemed to be saying that faith isn't what matters. Notice his list of all the other religions, including atheists, in his response to me.

I don't want to get into a point-by-point rebuttal of what he said because I think that the position I presented in the post he repudiated was clear enough. I would just be stating the obvious. He and I are coming from opposite places, and he and I are both stating clearly enough what those are.

Right, I understand what you are saying. My point was that it isn't what Paul is saying that someone may take issue with but the means by which it has been presented by someone who lacks love. So you might be surprised to find out that someone may disagree with what is being stated by Paul but if they have the faith we are called to have then you might be surprised by their follow through on the issues.

I don't have a problem with loving others including those who have a different faith than I do. We are called to love others even our enemies and let the Creator sort it out. Doesn't mean you have them necessarily teach in your church but you sure should be an example of love in deeds.

 

[moostraks]

I answered you. Read the post you are referencing You still, STILL, have not answered me. Ancestral sin-yes. Alive in Christ-yes those are who open the door AND hear His message of Love. If you don't have the 2 greatest commandments as were told to you by The Lord as your two greatest commandments then all of the rest of your beliefs are worthless.

ETA-worthless in a sense that you are wasting your time and need to reassess why you do what you do, any of it.

Hey S_F you have managed to go into other threads this afternoon and post, so why won't you answer my question? I answered yours, again and again...

Wait for it... is it because I am blathering on or because I am not Christian or is it because I am emotional? Which loaded phrase do you want to use so you don't have to answer my question?

Oh and for brevities sake lest you say what question, it was the one regarding why does the creation hold itself to a higher standard than your god who is a blood thirsty tyrant? Tell me how we are evil when we have a standard for acceptable practices for relationships but your god is good when he commits evil deeds.

I am waiting for the Romans clause for a response as that is all I ever see if you do acknowledge someone's questions regarding your beliefs. For the record, I ain't questioning the Creator here, I am questioning your beliefs.

 

[Jamesiv1]

I think he was saying that Paul's teachings ARE at fault. He can correct me if I'm wrong about that. And whereas you want to defend the existence of his faith, he seemed to be saying that faith isn't what matters. Notice his list of all the other religions, including atheists, in his response to me.

I'm not saying anyone is at fault. I'm just saying I wish there was more love between people of faith - people of ALL faiths.

You will never put God in someone's heart by beating him over the head with beliefs.

You love them until the hardness melts, they open their *own* hearts, and let God in.

People who already have God in their heart but have different beliefs? Give them a big hug, and help each other along the way as we trudge this mortal coil.

 

[Miss Annie]

I'm not saying anyone is at fault. I'm just saying I wish there was more love between people of faith - people of ALL faiths (like my list above).

You will never put God in someone's heart by beating him over the head with beliefs.

You love them until the hardness melts, they open their *own* hearts, and let God in.

People who already have God in their heart but have different beliefs? Give them a big hug, and help each other along the way as we trudge this mortal coil.

Amen! Why do we love Jesus? Is it not because he first loved us?

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[Terry1]

Jamesiv1 is correct, this is what we all need to be and do, but this can be a real test for some of us because the Lord calls us to love the "unlovable". Now, I know how hard this can be because the Lord prompted me more than once to approach some people I did not want to go near or touch with a ten foot pole. I said in my own mind "no Lord---not that person, I can't stand that person", but I did anyway. What happened as a result of listening to the Holy Spirit with one person is that I found out that I had been judging them based upon their outward appearance and actions. When I approached that person and introduced myself, we talked and later I found out that this person had been suffering terribly due to losing a son to a tragic accident. That she had been searching out the Lord and needed help and a shoulder.

The other person I was instructed to help, but the Lord spoke to me and told me that what I did would not be appreciated, that I would be hated later on, but I was to do it for them anyway. He was right. After everything I did--that person pretty much betrayed me and bad mouthed me, but I did what God wanted me to do for that person understanding already what He said came true.

I learned a long time ago--we just can't judge a heart of anyone---only God. It's really hard sometimes because we see with our carnal eyes and hear with our carnal ears and if we're not walking in the Spirit of the Lord---the flesh can really over-power us and blind to what God is trying to reveal to us about that person. The flesh and the spirit war with each other.

 

[erowe1]

Amen! Why do we love Jesus? Is it not because he first loved us?

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Notice that word "confess" in v. 15 and "believed" in v. 16 of what you presented. You can't have this love without that faith.

If you read 1 John in light of the Gospel of John, then I think that it also is clear that the faith he's talking about is belief in the very same Gospel as Paul's Gospel of Christ's death for our sins and resurrection according to the scriptures.

 

[Miss Annie]

Notice that word "confess" in v. 15 and "believed" in v. 16 of what you presented. You can't have this love without that faith.

If you read 1 John in light of the Gospel of John, then I think that it also is clear that the faith he's talking about is belief in the very same Gospel as Paul's Gospel of Christ's death for our sins and resurrection according to the scriptures.

Right,..... if Christians confess they also believe. If they confess and believe they should then pour out God's love on the saved and unsaved.
I am not sure I am understanding your point here.

 

[Miss Annie]

Notice that word "confess" in v. 15 and "believed" in v. 16 of what you presented. You can't have this love without that faith.

If you read 1 John in light of the Gospel of John, then I think that it also is clear that the faith he's talking about is belief in the very same Gospel as Paul's Gospel of Christ's death for our sins and resurrection according to the scriptures.

double post

 

[erowe1]

Right,..... if Christians confess they also believe. If they confess and believe they should then pour out God's love on the saved and unsaved.
I am not sure I am understanding your point here.

Did you read the discussion leading up to the post you were replying to with those verses from 1 John?

 

[Miss Annie]

Did you read the discussion leading up to the post you were replying to with those verses from 1 John?

I skimmed it briefly but was not paying really close attention. I just really loved the post that I quoted. It is an attitude that we should all have....... irregardless of what the previous posts were about. That is why I directly quoted THAT particular post and no others. I was not getting involved in the conversation as a whole,....... just commenting on James post. Does that clarify?

 

[ClydeCoulter]

So, what do you make of the Sermon on the Mount? These people he talked about certainly do not obtain any of it in this realm.

Here it is Sola, or anyone else.