I don't believe in Jesus Christ

moostraks said:
Ironically I try to take great pains to post opposing views with as little commentary as possible because of S_F and his penchant to call me bathering and irrational.
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That comment to me coming from Sola, I'd take it as a compliment.
 
moostraks said:
The difference in my experience with the people who dismiss Paul is that they focus on the love of Jesus. The followers of Paul tend to be vulgar tyrants who find validation in Paul to act obnoxiously towards others. I do not believe Paul would claim them if he met them but this is all my personal experience ymmv.
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yikes! a little harsh, but still well played :)
 
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moostraks said:
The difference in my experience with the people who dismiss Paul is that they focus on the love of Jesus. The followers of Paul tend to be vulgar tyrants who find validation in Paul to act obnoxiously towards others. I do not believe Paul would claim them if he met them but this is all my personal experience ymmv.
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I don't think that difference matters. If they replace the Jesus of the Bible, which is the Jesus of Paul's Gospel, with some Jesus who's all the things they like about the real Jesus and none of the things they don't, then they're no closer to the real Jesus than anyone who does the opposite. In fact, they're surely further away than the Paulists you're talking about. None of those Paulists actually put Jesus's words below Paul's. They just try to harmonize them without diminishing Paul's words in his inspired letters as any less authoritative than the words of Jesus in the inspired Gospels. But there's a very popular idea out there that Jesus came preaching a great message about love, and then Paul messed everything up by forgetting Jesus's message and replacing it with a message about Jesus. For these people we need to sweep away those mistakes of Paul and get back to the real message of Jesus, which for them is all about what he taught (and not all of what he taught, just the parts they're comfy with), and not about his dying on the cross for our sins and rising again.
 
eduardo89 said:
Coming from the guy who has called the Catholics and Orthodox on this forum ministers of Satan on multiple occasions.
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I have said that, and I believe that. But that is not all I say. I argue Biblically and logically.
 
eduardo89 said:
Coming from the guy who has called the Catholics and Orthodox on this forum ministers of Satan on multiple occasions.
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Yeah, but his reasons why (Which I agree with in this case) are theological, whether you agree with him or not. If he said "Catholic priests are pedophiles" THAT would be an ad hominem but in this case its an argument based on theology.
 
Sola_Fide said:
Eduardo, you may not like my answers but I do try to argue. I don't just throw out insults and leave it there. There is a basis for me saying that the Pope is an antichrist and you know it.
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This is NOT true. I responded toa post you made with no personal attack and you came back with NO response to my post other than to slander me with your accusations of not being a Christian and to pimp for another one of your ridiculous points ignoring my question with grossly oversized pictures. You have still yet to respond to my original question of why the creation is greater than your god.
 
erowe1 said:
I don't think that difference matters. If they replace the Jesus of the Bible, which is the Jesus of Paul's Gospel, with some Jesus who's all the things they like about the real Jesus and none of the things they don't, then they're no closer to the real Jesus than anyone who does the opposite. In fact, they're surely further away than the Paulists you're talking about. None of those Paulists actually put Jesus's words below Paul's. They just try to harmonize them without diminishing Paul's words in his inspired letters as any less authoritative than the words of Jesus in the inspired Gospels. But there's a very popular idea out there that Jesus came preaching a great message about love, and then Paul messed everything up by forgetting Jesus's message and replacing it with a message about Jesus. For these people we need to sweep away those mistakes of Paul and get back to the real message of Jesus, which for them is all about what he taught (and not all of what he taught, just the parts they're comfy with), and not about his dying on the cross for our sins and rising again.
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I happen to disagree with your assessment as I think if you miss the message of Love, which in my experience is what the Paul folks do, then all else is pointless as in order to understand what the greatest commandments involve one must start from Love and then work their way forward. As for the Paul folks putting the words of Jesus below Paul, in my experience, they certainly do because they explain their position from what they interpret Paul to mean and torture the words of the Jesus to fit their interpretation.

Yes, some red letter folks are preaching a faulty message, this is true of the religious community in general in my opinion. I have just experienced, repeatedly, the ones who take an unhealthy attitude towards others are the ones who start most arguments with "but Paul said..." For one to truly grasp the concept of the level to which one needs to commit to their faith to follow the 2 greatest commandments is staggering and without a doubt impossible without a very strong leading by the Holy Spirit. However, this relationship with be evidenced by their fruits of Love while all the right head knowledge will get you no where if you do not have these fruits of Love. So we seem to be coming at this from two different perspectives where I think that a red letter person would be in a position to start to employ the mechanics that Paul explains while you argue that without understanding the mechanics then they will not understand how to love. I think when you really grasp true Love, then the rest will follow. :)
 
moostraks said:
I happen to disagree with your assessment as I think if you miss the message of Love, which in my experience is what the Paul folks do, then all else is pointless as in order to understand what the greatest commandments involve one must start from Love and then work their way forward. As for the Paul folks putting the words of Jesus below Paul, in my experience, they certainly do because they explain their position from what they interpret Paul to mean and torture the words of the Jesus to fit their interpretation.

Yes, some red letter folks are preaching a faulty message, this is true of the religious community in general in my opinion. I have just experienced, repeatedly, the ones who take an unhealthy attitude towards others are the ones who start most arguments with "but Paul said..." For one to truly grasp the concept of the level to which one needs to commit to their faith to follow the 2 greatest commandments is staggering and without a doubt impossible without a very strong leading by the Holy Spirit. However, this relationship with be evidenced by their fruits of Love while all the right head knowledge will get you no where if you do not have these fruits of Love. So we seem to be coming at this from two different perspectives where I think that a red letter person would be in a position to start to employ the mechanics that Paul explains while you argue that without understanding the mechanics then they will not understand how to love. I think when you really grasp true Love, then the rest will follow. :)
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I don't disagree with you. But I think what you said is missing the very most important thing, which is the Gospel, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.

That truth is the central hub that everything else revolves around. The Gospel is the truth in whose light all the other points need to get worked out. You put love in that place. And, since the Gospel is a gospel of God's love, love is in that place. But it's not just love as an abstraction that is left up to us to define, it is the divine love that is demonstrated in that Gospel.
 
erowe1 said:
I don't disagree with you. But I think what you said is missing the very most important thing, which is the Gospel, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.

That truth is the central hub that everything else revolves around. The Gospel is the truth in whose light all the other points need to get worked out. You put love in that place. And, since the Gospel is a gospel of God's love, love is in that place. But it's not just love as an abstraction that is left up to us to define, it is the divine love that is demonstrated in that Gospel.
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Yep, I believe we are thinking along the similar lines. It is just that you seem to be angling from the line of the necessity of grasping the head knowledge where I think before we had the access that we (meaning you and I) had to the information we have at our finger tips then we started with a very rudimentary seed that was planted in our soul. So I see the red letter people as having the clean slate. Some of the Paul folks are like the cap wearing crowd that wear a cap only because they are told to and might down right resent it so the benefit of wearing a cap is lost because they don't start with love. This has been my own personal struggle and it resulted in a path where I had to walk away from the head teaching so I could get down to the heart.
 
erowe1 said:
I don't disagree with you. But I think what you said is missing the very most important thing, which is the Gospel, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.

That truth is the central hub that everything else revolves around. The Gospel is the truth in whose light all the other points need to get worked out. You put love in that place. And, since the Gospel is a gospel of God's love, love is in that place. But it's not just love as an abstraction that is left up to us to define, it is the divine love that is demonstrated in that Gospel.
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FAIL

This is where many who call themselves Christians totally fail.

You are starting from a belief rather than an action. ('the gospel'=belief, love=action)

This is the exclusionary part, this is the arrogant part, this is the self-righteous part.

This is the part that says to other faiths "you are wrong", this is the part that says to people on different spiritual paths "you're going the wrong way, pal", this is the part that says "if you don't believe what I believe, you're gonna burn in hell for eternity"

that is just wrong on sooooo many levels.

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 22:36-39 KJV 1611

Jesus taught "Love", Paul taught "Gospel"

I'll go with Jesus on this one.


edit:
another way to put this is "Lead with your heart, not your head."
+rep moostraks (are you married? i think I'm in love with you) :)
 
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Jamesiv1 said:
FAIL

This is where many who call themselves Christians totally fail.

You are starting from a belief rather than an action. ('the gospel'=belief, love=action)

This is the exclusionary part, this is the arrogant part, this is the self-righteous part.

This is the part that says to other faiths "you are wrong", this is the part that says to people on different spiritual paths "you're going the wrong way, pal", this is the part that says "if you don't believe what I believe, you're gonna burn in hell for eternity"

that is just wrong on sooooo many levels.

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 22:36-39 KJV 1611

Jesus taught "Love", Paul taught "Gospel"

I'll go with Jesus on this one.


edit:
another way to put this is "Lead with your heart, not your head."
+rep moostraks (are you married? i think I'm in love with you) :)
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Case in point.
 
erowe1 said:
Case in point.
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Hindus
Buddhists
Muslims
Jews
Bahá'ís
Sikhs
Zoroastrianists
Jains
Atheists
Agnostics
Native Americanists
Secularists
Non-religionists
Deists
Shintoists
Indigenous people of almost everywhere-ists
Taoists
Confucianists

also cases in point.

the point I'm trying to make is simply if all human beans could just lead with our hearts instead of our heads, we could all get along just swell. you've got your beliefs, he's got his beliefs, I've got mine - whatever. doesn't mean we can't love each other while we're here.
 
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moostraks said:
This is NOT true. I responded toa post you made with no personal attack and you came back with NO response to my post other than to slander me with your accusations of not being a Christian and to pimp for another one of your ridiculous points ignoring my question with grossly oversized pictures. You have still yet to respond to my original question of why the creation is greater than your god.
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You can have this debate with yourself because I don't care to talk about who said what and who has their feelings hurt.

The original verse we were talking about was in Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:3-5 NASB

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
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Does the Bible teach that we are by nature children of wrath and dead in our sins? Yes or no?

Does God make a dead man alive when He saves them? Yes or no?
 
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