Rick Santorum I almost became a fan of Rick Santorum tonight.

Everyone STFU! There are much worse things facing us as to whether or not we are or are not 'Christian.' Just fuckin' stop it. When shit crashes down around our ears it ain't gonna matter who you pray to or whether or not you pray. You'll still be fucked.
 
The cracks have always been there. Cognitive dissonance is what makes them reasonable. Don't expect the ideas of liberty to have a breakthrough in the minds of the ignorant any time soon. Cracks in logic aren't going to bring a candidate down.

Aww come on, don't be so pessimistic, liberty is popular:). I don't think Santorum is going to be in trouble the exchange about foreign policy, but Paul can use things like this to combat the idea that his foreign policy is dangerous and radical. And he has to do that to get main stream support. It's obvious that Ron's trying to do this too (did you hear his intro statement LOL). I was kind of sad that the debate mostly avoided foreign policy except for that question.
 
Wrong. God is outside of space, time, energy, and matter. He created these things and is not dependent on them. These things are finite and had a beginning because that is what the laws of the universe dictate. God is outside of the universe and is infinite. He is not created because He is the original force behind that which had to have a beginning in order to exist at all. That only applies to things that began to exist, such as our minds and our bodies. If we began to exist, the universe must have had a beginning as well. This logic does not apply to an omnipresent being that had no beginning and exists outside of the constraints of the universe and its laws.

I tend to say "The realm of eternity is transcendant from and perpendicular to the space-time continuum, and God, who inhabits the realm of eternity, is beyond and independent of the created universe."
 
Zero=Infinity is a mathematical equation that works. I don't need to explain the logic behind it. It works because it works. Answer this: before the universe was so called created, there was nothing right? Then how can God exist? God would in theory require energy, mass, or some type of substance and space to exist. So who created God. See how your argument is illogical?

Let's follow the logic of what you've just stated here to it's logical conclusion.

You're own statement of Zero=Infinity does not exist since the conceptual abstraction of zero is based on an absence, not to mention that Mathematical equations do not, in themselves, possess energy, mass or any type of substance unless applied to an actual existent. Furthermore, work is energy over time, time doesn't possess energy, mass or any type of substance.

I would suggest spending a little less time hanging around youtube atheist channels and more time studying classic philosophers so you can argue your points more effectively. Plato would be a good place to start, and you can work your way from him to the others. I would also recommend taking Enlightenment philosophers and 19th century German thinkers with a massive grain of salt on metaphysics, Hume and Kant were inherently self-contradictory rehashes of fragments of Aristotelian philosophy, and most of the people that came out of Germany afterward were utter charlatans.
 
The universe is finite. Fact. God encompasses the universe. He is both within it and without it. He cannot be subject to its laws because He defines the terms of its existence. God can both be the universe and not be subject to the laws that govern the universe because He is the universe and yet is independent of it. He is the process which we see as being the truth of the universe, which is that everything had a beginning. However, just because the universe obeys those laws and had to have a beginning, it doesn't mean God also had a beginning. God can change those laws because He both IS the process, and is above and beyond it.

Why does MY infinity (of the universe) have to have a beginning but your infinity (God) doesn't have a beginning?

Also, you said God was outside the universe. You can't be infinite and be outside of anything. For God to be separate from the universe, the universe AND God must be finite.

Do you have a mathematical formula that proves the universe is finite? Have you traveled to the edge of the universe?
 
read what you said. You described the universe with the exact definition of God. He always was no beginning no end. Then you disprove God by saying its imossibel for something to not have a beginning or end.

I never said it was impossible for something to not have a beginning or end. I said there is no beginning or end to infinity. You must be thinking of what someone else said.
 
Let's follow the logic of what you've just stated here to it's logical conclusion.

You're own statement of Zero=Infinity does not exist since the conceptual abstraction of zero is based on an absence, not to mention that Mathematical equations do not, in themselves, possess energy, mass or any type of substance unless applied to an actual existent. Furthermore, work is energy over time, time doesn't possess energy, mass or any type of substance.

I would suggest spending a little less time hanging around youtube atheist channels and more time studying classic philosophers so you can argue your points more effectively. Plato would be a good place to start, and you can work your way from him to the others. I would also recommend taking Enlightenment philosophers and 19th century German thinkers with a massive grain of salt on metaphysics, Hume and Kant were inherently self-contradictory rehashes of fragments of Aristotelian philosophy, and most of the people that came out of Germany afterward were utter charlatans.

Lets make this simple.

Lets say there are only ten pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Probably pretty valuable.

Lets say there are 1,000 pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Less than if there is only 10 pencils.

Lets say there are an infinite amount of pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Zero.

If a pencil equals zero and there are an infinite amount of them, that means infinity equals zero.
 
Why does MY infinity (of the universe) have to have a beginning but your infinity (God) doesn't have a beginning?

Also, you said God was outside the universe. You can't be infinite and be outside of anything. For God to be separate from the universe, the universe AND God must be finite.

Do you have a mathematical formula that proves the universe is finite? Have you traveled to the edge of the universe?

Mathematical non sequitur. The set [all even numbers] is infinite, and is completely outside of the set [odd numbers]. The idea that God exists outside of the space-time continuum does not not prohibit the quality of infiniteness. Non sequitur from the ground up.
 
I don't know about you, but I think there is something wrong with atheism. I'm not going to say there is something wrong with every individual who is an atheist, but it is a fundamentallly flawed philosophy. For one, it is the reason people believe that their rights come from the state. If your rights do not come from God, they can only be granted by other men. That means, the men who have the most power, get to set the rules. That is the very foundation of statism.
This is an argument from consequences. You're saying, in effect, "God has to exist, since if he doesn't, then rights can only be granted by other men. I don't want that to be the case. Therefore, God exists." I'm sure you see why that doesn't hold water.

In fact, as a practical matter, rights are only taken or protected by force wielded by man. I'm not aware of any God ever coming to the defense of anyone's rights -- at least not in any verifiable fashion. Instead, we routinely see humans denied their rights. That's been the case throughout history. Whether rights exist or not in any sense is moot if they're not backed up with force or the threat of force.

Also, it is impossible for there not to be a god. Something cannot come from nothing. Where did the matter, the energy, the laws come from if there was no original force that made the universe behave as it does? It doesn't matter whether you believe God did it through evolution or some other method, but you can't logically deny the existence of an original intelligent force. Otherwise, there would be no original force.
While you're correct that there needs to be some "first cause," the assumption that it must have been an intelligent God is unjustified. It's possible that the "uncreated creator" of the universe is simply the laws of physics, or maybe even some other perfectly natural phenomenon that humans lack the capacity to understand.

There's a book on this subject called A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. I haven't yet read it but plan to as soon as I get a chance.

The truly logical position on this question is agnosticism. Humans simply don't know where everything came from, and we may never know. Everything may have been created by some kind of God -- perhaps a completely impersonal one who's nothing like the anthropomorphic God portrayed by the various religions. Or everything may have been created by a self-existent but natural entity that "lives" outside our universe. We just don't know, and that's uncomfortable for many people to accept.

Religions are rooted in the ancient attempts of man to come to grips with things he didn't understand. Just as lots of people today are "sure" that a personal God exists, people were once certain that witches were responsible for their crop failures and cattle dying, that people with epilepsy or Tourette's syndrome were possessed by demons, and so forth. But as science revealed more about how nature works, the role of religion grew smaller. Its only refuge now is in questions that science still hasn't answered, such as the origin of life and the universe itself -- though there are some plausible theories out there about these things.
 
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Mathematical non sequitur. The set [all even numbers] is infinite, and is completely outside of the set [odd numbers]. The idea that God exists outside of the space-time continuum does not not prohibit the quality of infiniteness. Non sequitur from the ground up.

It does. Infinity is everything. Thats what makes it infinity. You can't have infinity in one location, then infinity in another.
 
It does. Infinity is everything. Thats what makes it infinity. You can't have infinity in one location, then infinity in another.

That's extremely inaccurate. Infinity is not everything, not even close.

The set [all prime numbers] is infinite, and it barely contains a fraction of the set [all real numbers]
 
Lets say there are an infinite amount of pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Zero.

Not if it's a Ron Paul pencil that I stole from Donald Trump's house.
(sorry. I'm laughing at my own inside jokes that no-one else understands. Please excuse my rudeness.)
 
Why does MY infinity (of the universe) have to have a beginning but your infinity (God) doesn't have a beginning?

Also, you said God was outside the universe. You can't be infinite and be outside of anything. For God to be separate from the universe, the universe AND God must be finite.

Do you have a mathematical formula that proves the universe is finite? Have you traveled to the edge of the universe?

Because your infinity is not actually infinite. That is an observable fact. It had a beginning.
 
I tend to say "The realm of eternity is transcendant from and perpendicular to the space-time continuum, and God, who inhabits the realm of eternity, is beyond and independent of the created universe."

I seem to have trouble keeping it short because I am afraid people will not understand. Despite my efforts, however, they always respond with a logical fallacy, thinking they have found a crack in my logic.
 
Because your infinity is not actually infinite. That is an observable fact. It had a beginning.

And where was this beginning? Have you seen it? Or just read about it in the Bible?

Infinity is infinity. You can't say one type of infinity has a beginning and one type of infinity doesn't. It doesn't work that way.
 
Why does MY infinity (of the universe) have to have a beginning but your infinity (God) doesn't have a beginning?

Also, you said God was outside the universe. You can't be infinite and be outside of anything. For God to be separate from the universe, the universe AND God must be finite.

Do you have a mathematical formula that proves the universe is finite? Have you traveled to the edge of the universe?

I didn't really mean outside as in inhabiting a space apart from the space the universe occupies. I was not even talking in terms of space, but our finite understanding, alas, also limits our ability to communicate with such abstract ideas. God is the universe and is also above and beyond the universe. God encompasses everything.
 
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