How "real" is Obama?

[chelu]

anti-Obama = pro-McCain, lol. Same kind of thinking that makes Ron Paul anti-semite because he criticizes the platform of the israel lobby. The last thing I thought I would be called, for defending liberty and the constitution, would be a McCain shill. Maybe though, if I was talking with the an Obama supporter who thinks all Republicans are evil, and because republicans praise the free markets and economic liberty, that it too is evil and is the root of all our economic problems.

I don't get it, supposed Ron Paul supporters, very easily willing to switch over to Obama, and some even in love with his universal healthcare plans. For me, it doesn't add up. It's like switching to Huckabee because he's stronger on Abortion than McCain/Obama/Clinton. Then getting behind his views on personal liberties when it comes to homosexuals, national smoking ban, etc...

 

[werdd]

obama is more of the same, and he wont even promise any troops out of iraq until 2012. Theres no way i could vote for that socialist peice of shit.

 

[TruthisTreason]

If Obama really brings any sort of "change" like legalizing drugs,

I've not seen a link or acticle to anything saying he would "legalize", I have seen where he mentioned "decriminalize". That was in 2001 and I also read he wouldn't use Federal agents to raid medical patients... Far cry from "llegalize"!

 

[quantized]

anti-Obama = pro-McCain, lol. Same kind of thinking that makes Ron Paul anti-semite because he criticizes the platform of the israel lobby. The last thing I thought I would be called, for defending liberty and the constitution, would be a McCain shill. Maybe though, if I was talking with the an Obama supporter who thinks all Republicans are evil, and because republicans praise the free markets and economic liberty, that it too is evil and is the root of all our economic problems.

I don't get it, supposed Ron Paul supporters, very easily willing to switch over to Obama, and some even in love with his universal healthcare plans. For me, it doesn't add up. It's like switching to Huckabee because he's stronger on Abortion than McCain/Obama/Clinton. Then getting behind his views on personal liberties when it comes to homosexuals, national smoking ban, etc...

LOL. crying out loud when you had a taste of your own medicine?

suggesting universal health care is not absolute evil = you are pro health care
saying Obama is against the war = you are an Obama troll
suggesting that 100% liberty is an ideal = you are against liberty

How often do you look at yourself in the mirror?

 

[lucynuts]

As far as the dollar collapse limiting someone like Obama I wouldn't count on it. When the dollar finally fails the American people will be at the top of a mountain on one side will be socialism and communism and on the other will be free markets. In a political race where it seems all of the candidates condone socialism, except Ron Paul of course, the one direction we will be headed is a society in which we become real slaves to the government. Think about what happened during the Depression, when the dollar finally fails there will be virtually no middle class, we will wait on bread lines if there are any and we will become a nation of servants to the government. It is not an option to wait for the dollar to collapse because at that time it will be too late for us to really save this country. We must push forth and instill fiscal responsibility in our government and that time is now. Hold these bastards in office accountable for their actions, it is the People's sole responsibility to ensure that our government officials are responsible for their actions.

 

[chelu]

LOL. crying out loud when you had a taste of your own medicine?

suggesting universal health care is not absolute evil = you are pro health care
saying Obama is against the war = you are an Obama troll
suggesting that 100% liberty is an ideal = you are against liberty

How often do you look at yourself in the mirror?

obama may be against the war, I said I don't put too much into that because of a speech he made. yes there are some people who don't get lost in the hyponitc trance of Obama speeches. I don't think he would end the war, but I'll gladly be wrong on that if he did end up as president.

Obama's universal healthcare plan leaves no room for economic liberty. It's government run, taxpayer paid. I'm not anti-health care or anti-universal healthcare. Hey if some billionaire wants to make it his lifelong mission to provide healthcare, free for every citizen, so be it, just don't require me to sign up or face a penalty. Obama's plan requires it for children, Hillary would hit your pocketbooks if you don't enter the system. Where's the freedom in that?

It's not an easy task repairing over a hundred years of liberty that's been divided into segments. You're weren't exactly helping when you said we should "compromise" just so we could get a more little here and there. Vote for Obama because yea we'll lose economic liberty, but hey we'll have security from war with Iran. How often do you read the quote in your signature, and give it some thought?

This was about whether or not to vote for Obama. My point was it would be confusing to see how any Ron Paul supporter could quickly switch over and vote for the guy, even if it was an "anti-McCain vote". Even more confusing would be, a Ron Paul supporter leaning to adopt Obama's national healthcare plans, at the expense of liberty, and especially at this point in our campaign.

 

[MrKoffee]

I guess recent events have separated the boys from the men. No one ever said this was going to be easy, but I'm glad to see those with no faith leave the campaign, they were just an emotional drain anyway.

As for Obama? If you want to vote for Obama you were never really a Ron Paul supporter anyway. Ron Paul and his movement are the complete opposite of what Obama is.

Goodbye, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

I don't care what anyone says to me, Ron Paul has my vote, the man's sacrificed so much over the years and hasn't quit preaching the message after 30 years of being ignored. I'm not gonna bail after less than a year. Truly, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH, NOTHING ELSE.

RON PAUL FOR THE LONG HAUL

 

[kimo]

WOW..Have you seen this? I won`t believe that, but was quite shocked:

Barack Obama's very controversial pastor..


http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/hughes/080201

 

[Laja]

Obama is owned by the military industrial complex.

Obama is a supporter of the "patriot" act.

Obama has vowed to bomb Pakistan.

Obama voted for the Real ID Act.

Obama is a smooth-talking, bald-faced lying politician.

Obama is beholden to AIPAC.

Obama's handler is Zbignew Brzezensky, a crazed powermonger with a hard-on to destroy Russia.

Obama belongs to a whitey-hating church.

Obama is a tax and spender.

Obama is using his mezmerizing rhetoric to hoodwink the easily swayable, non-thinking masses.

Any of you purported Ron Paul supporters who say they'd vote for Obama are not as enlightened as you'd like to think.

 

[FindLiberty]

Thank you Laja, QFT

BTW - I'm voting for Ron Paul and any other LP / non-CFR candidate that I can find.

Obama is owned by the military industrial complex.
Obama is a supporter of the "patriot" act.
Obama has vowed to bomb Pakistan.
Obama voted for the Real ID Act.
Obama is a smooth-talking, bald-faced lying politician.
Obama is beholden to AIPAC.
Obama's handler is Zbignew Brzezensky, a crazed powermonger with a hard-on to destroy Russia.
Obama belongs to a whitey-hating church.
Obama is a tax and spender.
Obama is using his mezmerizing rhetoric to hoodwink the easily swayable, non-thinking masses.

Any of you purported Ron Paul supporters who say they'd vote for Obama are not as enlightened as you'd like to think.

 

[quantized]

obama may be against the war, I said I don't put too much into that because of a speech he made. yes there are some people who don't get lost in the hyponitc trance of Obama speeches. I don't think he would end the war, but I'll gladly be wrong on that if he did end up as president..

You can speculate about the future in all possible multi-universe scenarios. But it is quite clear that among the McCain/Obama/Hillary pack, Obama is the more anti-war candidate. For the love of this nation, i support Ron Paul and it is for the same love of this nation i want to prevent a McCain presidency. This nation can no longer sustain another 100 years of war!

Obama's universal healthcare plan leaves no room for economic liberty. It's government run, taxpayer paid. I'm not anti-health care or anti-universal healthcare. Hey if some billionaire wants to make it his lifelong mission to provide healthcare, free for every citizen, so be it, just don't require me to sign up or face a penalty. Obama's plan requires it for children, Hillary would hit your pocketbooks if you don't enter the system. Where's the freedom in that?.

I had said i do not have faith in the current health care system in our country and my position is quite neutral. IMHO, lobbyist must not be involved in the health care system else it will drive the cost up and it will not serve the people's interest. i am not an expert in this issue. But it is a well-known fact that there are countries in the world which has successful universal healthcare
http://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for_universal_health_care_in_the_united_states.htm

It's not an easy task repairing over a hundred years of liberty that's been divided into segments. You're weren't exactly helping when you said we should "compromise" just so we could get a more little here and there. Vote for Obama because yea we'll lose economic liberty, but hey we'll have security from war with Iran. How often do you read the quote in your signature, and give it some thought?.

When Benjamin spoke abt "... sacrifice liberty... for security.." he wasn't refering to economic security/liberty. Of course you can insist on your interpretation. For me, i am not trained in economics to fully appreciate the truthiness of this statement in the context of economics. Citing an example... as a scientist, i believe firmly that governemnt should continue funding scientific programs and there are fundamental scientific efforts that the free market will not be enticed to sponsor. NASA/NAtional science foundation should be continued. And yes. the word Compromise does has an attach a negative overtone which probably cause you to be distasteful.. but isn't politics all about the art of compromising. Sigh... i hate to throw a wet blanket.. but i simply am not convinced that people are all responsible beings to embrace a world of 100% liberty. A battle to restore as much liberty is still a noble battle and should not be discounted as a 'blesphemy' to the cause of liberty...

This was about whether or not to vote for Obama. My point was it would be confusing to see how any Ron Paul supporter could quickly switch over and vote for the guy, even if it was an "anti-McCain vote". Even more confusing would be, a Ron Paul supporter leaning to adopt Obama's national healthcare plans, at the expense of liberty, and especially at this point in our campaign.

i do not adopt Obama's plan or Hillary or anybody. i am just disagreeing with the notion that universal healthcare is an absolute evil as you stated it.

 

[Mithridates]

Interesting thread. Here are my thoughts:

I was first an Obama supporter until I found out about Ron Paul. Ron Paul is the only candidate whose speeches I can watch time and time again, as they are unscripted and there is always something new to learn in them. Thanks to him I've become seriously interested in economics, an area that I had next to no interest in before.

Having said that, the thread is about the election and which of the likely results is the least bad. I would like to see an Obama presidency over Clinton or McCain for the following reasons. An Obama presidency would be good for this movement in two ways:

One, the neo-con movement needs a serious shitkicking, a massive defeat in 2008 that sends the GOP licking its wounds and gives it a few years in the shadows to think about what conservatism actually means. The way things are, both parties are parties of big government and a vote either way just leads to more big government. The Democratic party at least is not pretending to be the party of small government while doing just the opposite. So there needs to be a message sent that you can't continue to rule the country while saying one thing and doing another. At the same time there will hopefully be a number of Ron Paul republicans voted into office in 2008, and more in 2010 which will probably be another defeat for the GOP as it takes more than two years to come to terms with a big defeat. Hopefully at the same time there'll be a massive upheaval within. Then depending on the situation, a real small-government anti-war conservative president can be elected in 2012, and hopefully it won't be too late by then. (no, it's not a rosy situation but I think this is likely to happen)

The second reason why an Obama presidency would be good for this movement is that even though he's the media's darling, it would still show that people can make president if they play their cards right, even if they were unknown a few years before. If Hillary or McCain were to win, it would cement the impression (or the fact) that you become president by either marrying in, being part of a family, or discarding all your principles and kissing ass for eight years. It's hard to tell how many future potential Ron Pauls there would be that choose not to enter politics for just that reason, denying the country the value of their service.

That being said, I'm not addressing whether people should write in Ron Paul or vote for Obama in a hypothetical November, just what I think the effects of an Obama presidency might be.

 

[Broadlighter]

I do not adopt Obama's plan or Hillary or anybody. i am just disagreeing with the notion that universal healthcare is an absolute evil as you stated it.

The Federal Reserve System was promoted to clip the wings of the Money Trust, which had created financial panics around the turn of the century. We ended up with the wolves guarding the hen house and the Fed is largely responsible for the healthcare problems of today through inflation.

The Fed fiat money system would probably work well for everyone if everyone, especially the politicians, exercised fiscal discipline.

The absolute evil of UHC is that it will be special interest driven, just like the Fed.

We need a system that's as human proof as possible. I don't think UHC will deliver that here in America - not when a truly free market where people can make their own choices can do the job better.

UHC = Medicine at the barrel of a gun.

 

[nate895]

The guy said something about decriminalizing marijuana. In a full democrat controlled system, what are our odds of getting this to pass? I personally want legalized drugs of all types, no FDA, legalized hemp. If Obama stops the Iraq war and legalizes marijuana, I may consider him the lesser evil if there is no Ron Paul in the general election. He is no fiscal conservative, but the dollar collapse and economic collapse will limit what he can do in terms of taxation. I'll simply move my business off shore if taxation goes up.

As much as I like Ron Paul, I like the fact that Obama has knocked off Clinton. I strongly prefer Obama to John McCain.

John McCain is a nutcase. If Ron Paul is not in the general election, I really think we need to reconsider whether we should not vote for Obama. Obama is a saint compared to McCain. McCain is an absolute nutcase. It's not a vote of support for Obama, so much as a vote against McCain.

In my opinion, McCain is like the figurehead for the police state. Clinton is next.

The only reason I'd be routing for Obama on election night would be because it would give us a chance to regroup for the next Presidential Election.

 

[FreedomAndLaw]

*****

 

[Broadlighter]

When Benjamin spoke abt "... sacrifice liberty... for security.." he wasn't refering to economic security/liberty. Of course you can insist on your interpretation. For me, i am not trained in economics to fully appreciate the truthiness of this statement in the context of economics. Citing an example... as a scientist, i believe firmly that governemnt should continue funding scientific programs and there are fundamental scientific efforts that the free market will not be enticed to sponsor. NASA/NAtional science foundation should be continued. And yes. the word Compromise does has an attach a negative overtone which probably cause you to be distasteful.. but isn't politics all about the art of compromising. Sigh... i hate to throw a wet blanket.. but i simply am not convinced that people are all responsible beings to embrace a world of 100% liberty. A battle to restore as much liberty is still a noble battle and should not be discounted as a 'blesphemy' to the cause of liberty...

Franklin left little room for interpretation in this quote:

"The colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the Colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. The inability of the colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George III and the international bankers was the PRIME reason for the revolutionary war." Benjamin Franklin's autobiography

Yes, when he talked about liberty, that especially included economic liberty.

None of us has perfect understanding, so we adopt the side we're willing to err on. We Ron Paul supporters will err on the side of liberty because it is non-invasive and non-coercive. Should the government fund scientific exploration? I would be all for it, if it were based on choice. Instead of taxing people, which is coercive and confiscatory by nature, why not hold a fundraiser where people may donate what they wish to the science projects of their choice? Public television and radio do it all the time. Wealthy people pour money into foundations - it's all voluntary. This is what reflects the ideal of a free society. This is what we should be working toward and efforts toward the re-distribution of wealth by fiat actually move us way from that.

 

[chelu]

i do not adopt Obama's plan or Hillary or anybody. i am just disagreeing with the notion that universal healthcare is an absolute evil as you stated it.

You were the one who called universal healthcare an "absolute evil". I was quoting your words. I don't consider UHC, per se, as evil. I consider liberty an absolute good, and something that, in a free society, must be consistent and not compromised. As for even considering to vote for Obama, because one thinks his presidency would end up differently than McCain, MrKoffee summed it up perfectly.


"We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

 

[DaneKirk]

Obama is not going to force anyone to get healthcare AT FIRST anyway. To me that is a little more conservative compared to Hillary's plan. Her plan does not go over well with a good amount of liberals as well, my mother in law is VERY leftist and she calls Hillary the "Wicked Witch of the West" because of her healthcare plan. The fact is that many Americans left and right still do not like to be forced by the government to do things.

But anyway, who ever gets elected I know that the military will get all the funding we need to upgrade our aging weapon systems, get new ships, and aircraft to maintain our technological advantage compared to China and Russia. To me, that is all I really care about because I fly on an aircraft whose program has had cuts to pay for the war. Oh yeah, and I would like a balanced budget.

 

[Tdcci]

Citing an example... as a scientist, i believe firmly that governemnt should continue funding scientific programs and there are fundamental scientific efforts that the free market will not be enticed to sponsor. NASA/NAtional science foundation should be continued.

NASA is partly sponsored by private corporations, much like PBS is partly sponsored by "viewers like you". They've shown themselves to be able to invest in science, what about all the pharmaceutical companies out there?

 

[WilliamC]

How real is Obama?

What do you know about the square root of negative one?