How "real" is Obama?

I will not cast my vote for the lesser of two evils, because it's still evil. On top of that, Obama will beat McCain in the general election, no question there. For those reasons, I will be voting for Dr. Paul no matter what, even if I have to write him in.
 
yes, the former is jumping off the cliff, where the latter is climbing down a cliff, a cliff that people had successfully surmounted it. Do a search on wiki "universal healthcare" and see for yourself how many countries in the world had successfully implemented it. Surprising? Universal healthcare is possible if we figured out how these countries managed to do it. One thing for sure, the lobbyists must be expelled from our healthcare initiatives!

You're trying to sell me on universal healthcare, and at the same time your signature is the "Anyone who gives up liberty for security...." quote? This is hilarious stuff. Yea let's give up our liberty to spend our money they way we choose, in order to get this healthcare security. Oh yea and at the same to let's obliterate the 1st Amendment so we can make sure those evil lobbyists are abridged freedom of speech, the right to peacefully assemble, and to petition the Government.

Lobbyists, the Domestic Al-Qaedas.

You're looking in the wrong place for potential Obama converts.
 
I don't understand how Obama got so much press early on. I remember in 2004 how CNN was fawning over him as soon as he got elected and called him a "rising star" -- I'd never heard of him until that night. So the question is: is Obama truly a manufactured media sensation?

This is exactly the reason not to vote for him. He's not the lesser of any evil when the establishment makes him popular. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!!
 
Funding of the troops while the troops is fighting a war is a very reasonable thing to do. i cannot penalize him for that.
No? Maybe you should check Dr. Paul's voting record and comments about the war funding bills that Obama voted for. The Democrats won control of Congress in 2006 running on a promise to end the war. The only way they could have reasonably expected to achieve this promise was to cut off funding. And it would have been easy. They could have simply blocked any funding request. They had the majority and the mandate of the people.

But they didn't because they were afraid of the political consequences; of being characterized (by the Republicans) as callous or made to appear that they did not "support our troops". They worried about what such a "tough" position might have done to their prospects in 2008. So, they passed Bush's funding requests - every one; kept crippling our economy; kept sending US citizens to die in an unjust, undeclared war; supported the usurping of our rights by reauthorizing the Patriot Act. Do I have to go on?! All for political expedience.

Mr. Obama is a skilled politician, but make no mistake about his affiliations or his positions. A kinder, gentler machine gun hand, indeed.

Do not let the outcome of RP's run determine your commitment to liberty. Instead of asking, "Who else should I consider for president?", perhaps you should be asking, "What else can I do to forward the cause of Freedom?" Waxing rhapsodic for Mr. Obama won't help, I'm afraid.
 
You're trying to sell me on universal healthcare, and at the same time your signature is the "Anyone who gives up liberty for security...." quote? This is hilarious stuff. Yea let's give up our liberty to spend our money they way we choose, in order to get this healthcare security.
You're looking in the wrong place for potential Obama converts.

That quote in my signature is a shout out against Patriot Act.

I am a scientist by profession. I support Ron Paul for simple reasons that i agree with his foreign policy of friendship and trade. And I abhor the concept of premptive war. So yes, the iraq war is one of my top issue. And it is obvious why Obama than is my backup candidate.

also, i am not sold on getting rid of the education of department, national science foundation, nasa etc. I firmly believe that government spending in science is crucial for the development of fundamental science for obvious reasons that the free market will not fund these efforts where the economic benefits are not in sight in the short term. Healthcare? i don't care much for it, but i am convince that current healthcare system is corrupted and destined to fail but do not agree that universal healthcare is an absolute evil because facts tells us that other countries had successfully implemented it.

Lastly, who are you a newbie to question my loyalty to Ron Paul. For all i know you could be a McCain supporter who are scared to shit that Ron Paul peeps will revolt against him!
 
First, if Obama committed to large scale military offensives, the people would revolt. If he's been given political capital or a "mandate" because the people expect change, the fallout from a pro-war shift in mentality would destroy the country and put the nail in the coffin.

Second, Obama's increased spending will do nothing but accelerate financial collapse. So it really doesn't matter how he does it as long as we pull out of Iraq. McCain, on the other hand, would wage war and bankrupt us with a sea full of enemies.

Yea the people sure are revolting after this Iraq war, alberto gonzales, RNC emails, Abu Ghraib, Patriot Act, secret CIA prisons, waterboarding, blackwater, $100/barrel oil, $3+ gas at the pump, Valarie plame, Scooter Libby's commuted sentence, WMD's, Protect America Act, Military Commisions Act, HR 1955, domestic spying, Mission Accomplished, Osama still alive AND FREE, 4,000 dead American soldiers by end of 2008, 30,000 injured by end of 2008, 1.5 million Iraqi civilians killed, 4 million civilian refugees, Walter Reed, cowardly 110th Democratic-lead Congress, etc.....

But yea if Obama were to end the Iraq war, by just changing the battefield, "the people" will be in an uproar. I'm sure within minutes they'll be storming the streets. Yea, gimme a break....

Same size war but change the battlefield. That's 'Change I can believe in.'
 
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That quote in my signature is a shout out against Patriot Act.

I am a scientist by profession. I support Ron Paul for simple reasons that i agree with his foreign policy of friendship and trade. And I abhor the concept of premptive war. So yes, the iraq war is one of my top issue. And it is obvious why Obama than is my backup candidate.

also, i am not sold on getting rid of the education of department, national science foundation, nasa etc. I firmly believe that government spending in science is crucial for the development of fundamental science for obvious reasons that the free market will not fund these efforts where the economic benefits are not in sight in the short term. Healthcare? i don't care much for it, but i am convince that current healthcare system is corrupted and destined to fail but do not agree that universal healthcare is an absolute evil because facts tells us that other countries had successfully implemented it.

Lastly, who are you a newbie to question my loyalty to Ron Paul. For all i know you could be a McCain supporter who are scared to shit that Ron Paul peeps will revolt against him!

I question your loyalty to liberty, tell me how you would have universal healthcare, without violating liberty. Label me a "could be McCain supporter", call me a newbie all you want. But you say the quote is a shout out against the Patriot Act, i'm guessing because it violates personal liberty. Only the real newbies wouldn't understand that personal liberty and economic liberty and not separate. If you're not sold on eliminating the programs you mentioned, and do not agree that socialized medicine is an "absolute evil", then that tells me you're not sold on the Constitution, and you do not agree that Liberty, is an absolute good.
 
yes, the former is jumping off the cliff, where the latter is climbing down a cliff, a cliff that people had successfully surmounted it. Do a search on wiki "universal healthcare" and see for yourself how many countries in the world had successfully implemented it. Surprising? Universal healthcare is possible if we figured out how these countries managed to do it. One thing for sure, the lobbyists must be expelled from our healthcare initiatives!

Fat chance we will get the lobbyists expelled from our healthcare initiatives if we adopt universal healthcare. If anything, the universal healthcare agenda will motivate the big Pharma, Insurance and allopathic medicine lobbies to influence the policies and the program in their favor. It will do for healthcare what the Federal Reserve bankers did for monetary policy. Since the Fed took over our money, the dollar has been devalued to 4% of its value. I've little doubt universal health care will follow a similar trend.

If you think UHC is rosy in Europe and Canada, think again. U.S. Corporations are now taking over the management of hospitals in the U.K. and France's system is going bankrupt. The better run systems seem to work in cities where the local tax base brings in more money, but people living outside the cities don't fare too well. And people with more urgent needs end up going out of pocket for private doctors or traveling outside their countries to get appropriate care.

What we need is to return to sound money and free the market on health care. That will effectively stabilize the cost of healthcare and improve its quality. Our corporate/government monopolized system is bad, but bringing more government into it isn't the answer. What Ron Paul advocates is stronger doctor/patient relationships and government tends to interfere with that.

If you are so gung ho on UHC, how would you feel if George W. Bush or John McCain were in charge of setting policy for it? This is how you have to think about instituting any new government program. Politics change and the only really good ideas are the ones that hold up in spite of who's in power.

Hillary's plan calls for forcing young adults to pay into the system. She believes the infusion of money from young adults who presumably don't need as much care will help bring down the costs for everyone. The way I see it, new people coming into the system will begin to demand more from it and there goes your lowered costs.

Obama's plan is to provide UHC for those below the poverty line, using money taxed from the rich. Sounds nice, but how about returning to sound money where the dollar can have some spending power? The kind of economic prosperity that would result from sound money would naturally help the poor get better health care. The idea of wealth distribution like Obama's plan ignores the fact that the very richest of people in the U.S. create new money out of thin air. So go ahead, tax the hell out of them. They'll only require some interest when you pay them back.

Until Obama or anyone else begins to talk about sound money, I have no reason to listen to their pitch.

I think Obama's a nice guy, but all I see him doing is putting a nicer, friendlier face on the same old corruption. And now he's got Zbiggy on his team. Good Lord!! Zbiggy makes the Neo-cons look like a bunch of wussies.

I do think Obama will beat McCain in the general election, but I'm not wasting my vote on him.
 
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obama is a plastic doll paraded in front of you to get you to think like this.

The guy said something about decriminalizing marijuana. In a full democrat controlled system, what are our odds of getting this to pass? I personally want legalized drugs of all types, no FDA, legalized hemp. If Obama stops the Iraq war and legalizes marijuana, I may consider him the lesser evil if there is no Ron Paul in the general election. He is no fiscal conservative, but the dollar collapse and economic collapse will limit what he can do in terms of taxation. I'll simply move my business off shore if taxation goes up.

As much as I like Ron Paul, I like the fact that Obama has knocked off Clinton. I strongly prefer Obama to John McCain.

John McCain is a nutcase. If Ron Paul is not in the general election, I really think we need to reconsider whether we should not vote for Obama. Obama is a saint compared to McCain. McCain is an absolute nutcase. It's not a vote of support for Obama, so much as a vote against McCain.

In my opinion, McCain is like the figurehead for the police state. Clinton is next.
 
I question your loyalty to liberty, tell me how you would have universal healthcare, without violating liberty.

That is a valid question. To paraphrase Hayek, when the government is the sole provider of employment, the opposition faces death by starvation. Health care can certainly go down the same road. "You didn't support the homegrown terrorism act? Sorry pal, federal law says we can't fix that broken leg of yours."

Obama is just too much of an amateur to handle the presidency. He will be used like a ten cent mule by the beltway influences around him. Obama's chief adviser is Zbigniew Brzezinski, who is known for his hawkish foreign policy. He called funding the Islamic mujaheden against the Russians 'well worth the cost' not too long ago. These are the same people we were fighting in Afghanistan. The insanity will only continue with Obama - not necessarily because he is a bad person - but because he can do little else than sound good on TV.

Obama is more of the same, and nothing more.
 
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First, if Obama committed to large scale military offensives, the people would revolt.

perhaps if people saw the truth, they would -- but they don't -- they see television.
 
Bri-ZHIN-ski. To hear audio of it, just watch MSNBC's Morning Joe, and listen how they pronounce his daughter's name.
 
That is a valid question. To paraphrase Hayek, when the government is the sole provider of employment, the opposition faces death by starvation. Health care can certainly go down the same road. "You didn't support the homegrown terrorism act? Sorry pal, federal law says we can't fix that broken leg of yours."

Obama is just too much of an amateur to handle the presidency. He will be used like a ten cent mule by the beltway influences around him. Obama's chief adviser is Zbigniew Brzezinski, who is known for his hawkish foreign policy. He called funding the Islamic mujaheden against the Russians 'well worth the cost'. About twenty years later, we were fighting those same people in Afghanistan. The insanity will only continue with Obama - not necessarily because he is a bad person - but because he can do little else than sound good on TV.

Obama is more of the same, and nothing more.
"Please have your National ID card ready when you arrive at the health care facility. This will help you see a doctor right away."
 
I question your loyalty to liberty, tell me how you would have universal healthcare, without violating liberty. Label me a "could be McCain supporter", call me a newbie all you want. But you say the quote is a shout out against the Patriot Act, i'm guessing because it violates personal liberty. Only the real newbies wouldn't understand that personal liberty and economic liberty and not separate. If you're not sold on eliminating the programs you mentioned, and do not agree that socialized medicine is an "absolute evil", then that tells me you're not sold on the Constitution, and you do not agree that Liberty, is an absolute good.

To me, "absolute liberty" is merely a political ideal. Life has taught me that many things in this world are not ideal/absolute and a balance or compromise has to be strike, especially in politics, dealing with human affairs.

To say that universal healthcare is an "absolute evil" because it violates liberty is a very weak argument attempting to frame the issue into a philosopical debate. 90% of the developed countries in the world have universal healthcare (see wikipedia "universal health care") and there are examples where it worked. And we cannot deny that it will benefits the poor/middle class if such program takes off. Borrowing a quote from Einstein, "if the data is contrary to the theory, change the theory". To ignore the 'data' that universal health care had been successfully implemented in other countries is not the way to go. Instead one should study them and adopt the policies/practises that worked.

But the worst evil is actually the income tax that we pay to support the war in iraq!! Do you realise that people like u whose right hand proclaim to be sold on fight for liberty had let your left hand pay the income tax to the government for support of this war?! Is this not hypocrisy?

Yes, i want personal and economic liberty. But i also realise that it is NOT a question of whether you can have 100% of liberty. But rather whether you can have MORE or LESS liberty. Voting for a candidate that support the war will DEFINTELY robbed you of more liberty of the already little liberty left!
 
To me, "absolute liberty" is merely a political ideal. Life has taught me that many things in this world are not ideal/absolute and a balance or compromise has to be strike, especially in politics, dealing with human affairs.

To say that universal healthcare is an "absolute evil" because it violates liberty is a very weak argument attempting to frame the issue into a philosopical debate. 90% of the developed countries in the world have universal healthcare (see wikipedia "universal health care") and there are examples where it worked. And we cannot deny that it will benefits the poor/middle class if such program takes off. Borrowing a quote from Einstein, "if the data is contrary to the theory, change the theory". To ignore the 'data' that universal health care had been successfully implemented in other countries is not the way to go. Instead one should study them and adopt the policies/practises that worked.

But the worst evil is actually the income tax that we pay to support the war in iraq!! Do you realise that people like u whose right hand proclaim to be sold on fight for liberty had let your left hand pay the income tax to the government for support of this war?! Is this not hypocrisy?

Yes, i want personal and economic liberty. But i also realise that it is NOT a question of whether you can have 100% of liberty. But rather whether you can have MORE or LESS liberty. Voting for a candidate that support the war will DEFINTELY robbed you of more liberty of the already little liberty left!

I must disagree. Need to keep this short(at school). But we are not 90% of the world. We are a free nation, according to my constitution, and the government has no right to take away my money to give to someone half way around the country. What if I don't want health care period? Give me 100% liberty, or give me death... Give me 50% liberty?

Don't know about that. At 21, I will do everything in my power to regain the freedoms that our fathers gave to us, before I die. I got a long way to go...

so... maybe you can help me:cool:
 
Just from your last post

-violates liberty is a very weak argument (WOW.)
-90% of the developed countries in the world have universal healthcare (So?)
-we cannot deny that it will benefits the poor/middle class (You're right Inflation is the shiznit)
-the worst evil is actually the income tax that we pay to support the war in iraq! (Will there be a diff. tax for UHC?)
-had let your left hand pay the income tax (people don't choose to pay, they're forced)
-Yes, i want personal and economic liberty (Just not for everyone else)
-i also realise that it is NOT a question of whether you can have 100% of liberty (there is no half-liberty, just like there is no half-hole. You either have it or not.)
-rather whether you can have MORE or LESS liberty (aka 'the status-quo')
-Is this not hypocrisy? (Without a doubt)

-Voting for a candidate that support the war will DEFINTELY robbed you of more liberty of the already little liberty left! (I'm sold! I definitely will not be voting for someone who supported the war by continuing to fund it.)

by the way, how was your Obama money-bomb yesterday?
 
by the way, how was your Obama money-bomb yesterday?

so you keeping track of Obama's money bomb huh? you know what? i don't even know he has a money bomb, so bleh to you. All i know is your McCain's ass will be bombed during the election before he has the chance to bomb iraq.

go wipe his ass now you newbie
 
If you think UHC is rosy in Europe and Canada, think again. U.S. Corporations are now taking over the management of hospitals in the U.K. and France's system is going bankrupt. The better run systems seem to work in cities where the local tax base brings in more money, but people living outside the cities don't fare too well. And people with more urgent needs end up going out of pocket for private doctors or traveling outside their countries to get appropriate care.

What we need is to return to sound money and free the market on health care. That will effectively stabilize the cost of healthcare and improve its quality. Our corporate/government monopolized system is bad, but bringing more government into it isn't the answer. What Ron Paul advocates is stronger doctor/patient relationships and government tends to interfere with that.

thank you.
 
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