HOAX EXPOSED: Full Clip Of Cliven Bundy’s Non-Racist, Pro-Black, Pro-Mexican, Anti-Government

[pcosmar]

Now that I actually saw the video, his point is still wrong.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Yeah, keep equating voluntary welfare checks with coercive physical bondage, that's the ticket!

 

[oldietech]

Yeah, keep equating voluntary welfare checks with coercive physical bondage, that's the ticket!

It's funny how attaching the word "voluntary" to an injustice suddenly makes it right. Mental slavery is not equal to physical slavery. It is worse.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

It's funny how attaching the word "voluntary" to an injustice suddenly makes it right. Mental slavery is not equal to physical slavery. It is worse.

I'm fairly certain that physical slavery is a serious burden on one's mental state. The comparison isn't mental slavery versus physical slavery. It's dependence versus mental and physical enslavement. Escaping dependence doesn't carry with it negative consequences. Escaping slavery put the slave at risk of capture, re-enslavement, raping, torture, etc.

Comparing the two conditions isn't a serious or worthwhile exercise.

 

[pcosmar]

I'm fairly certain that physical slavery is a serious burden on one's mental state.

And yet one can have a free mind even when locked in a physical cage.

you may not want to find that out for yourself though.

 

[oldietech]

I'm fairly certain that physical slavery is a serious burden on one's mental state. The comparison isn't mental slavery versus physical slavery. It's dependence versus mental and physical enslavement. Escaping dependence doesn't carry with it negative consequences. Escaping slavery put the slave at risk of capture, re-enslavement, raping, torture, etc.

Comparing the two conditions isn't a serious or worthwhile exercise.

I am sure it is. Freedom isn't an absence of burden. In fact maintaining my freedom in thought and deed is probably the most burdensome daily chore I have. There is nothing wrong with depending on others. There is something wrong with giving up freedom for a perception of physical accommodation. This is the trap of mental slavery.

You may choose to recast mental slavery as simply a state of mind, however it is foolish to dismiss the seriousness of mental slavery. A physical slave has the mental state of mind to be aware of his condition and make the decision to escape even at the risk his own life. He is mentally free.

A mental slave is not even aware he is captive and thus will not even attempt to escape. His mental enslavement leads to his willful self imposed physical oppression.

Another physically imprisoned individual was Henry David Thoreau. You may be familiar with his "Civil Disobedience". May I suggest another of his famous works
http://thoreau.eserver.org/life1.html Life Without Principle.

Here is a small quote that I think illustrates the idea that physical freedom is only a slice of absolute freedom. And as I have said, there is no such thing as "some freedom".

[SIZE=-1][15][/SIZE] America is said to be the arena on which the battle of freedom is to be fought; but surely it cannot be freedom in a merely political sense that is meant. Even if we grant that the American has freed himself from a political tyrant, he is still the slave of an economical and moral tyrant. Now that the republic — the res-publica — has been settled, it is time to look after the res-privata, — the private state, — to see, as the Roman senate charged its consuls, "ne quidres-[SIZE=-1]PRIVATA [/SIZE]detrimenti caperet," that the private state receive no detriment.[SIZE=-1](15)
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][16][/SIZE] Do we call this the land of the free? What is it to be free from King George and continue the slaves of King Prejudice? What is it to be born free and not to live free? What is the value of any political freedom, but as a means to moral freedom? Is it a freedom to be slaves, or a freedom to be free, of which we boast?

Same question Cliven Bundy is asking.

 

[osan]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

First and foremost, WHO CARES? If someone wants to be racist, that is their prerogative. If you do not understand why, you must be brain damaged.

 

[PRB]

There is a reason why your challenge fails on it's face. Before you can have someone voluntarily be your slave, you would need to involuntarily enslave their mind. Otherwise, you know that any mentally free person is going to reject your challenge. This doesn't prove your point. It proves mine. The fact that no one is willing to physically put themselves into slavery shows that physical chains have no power over mentally free people.

No, somebody claims slavery is preferable to something else today, so if he means it, he must be willing to take it over whatever it is he's comparing it to. The fact he ISN'T willing to do it, means he doesn't mean what he says. For unless he chooses it, what meaning is the word "better" or "preferable".

I don't need to label whoever claims slavery is better than welfare or whatever, it is what it is, I am simply putting his claim to the test.

So no, I need not enslave anybody's mind, the fact anybody would be stupid enough to claim slavery is better than modern welfare, is his problem, not mine.

 

[PRB]

Yeah, keep equating voluntary welfare checks with coercive physical bondage, that's the ticket!

I am not letting anybody get away with it until I see somebody act accordingly. If getting a welfare check is comparable to physical coercive bondage, a welfare recipient shouldn't mind switching one to the other, but NONE HAVE. It's always outside observers who think they know better (and probably never experienced slavery)

 

[PRB]

Do you agree or not that blacks are better off as slaves? Is that a fair question to ask a simple yes/no answer to?

 

[oldietech]

No, somebody claims slavery is preferable to something else today, so if he means it, he must be willing to take it over whatever it is he's comparing it to. The fact he ISN'T willing to do it, means he doesn't mean what he says. For unless he chooses it, what meaning is the word "better" or "preferable".

I don't need to label whoever claims slavery is better than welfare or whatever, it is what it is, I am simply putting his claim to the test.

So no, I need not enslave anybody's mind, the fact anybody would be stupid enough to claim slavery is better than modern welfare, is his problem, not mine.

You make no sense. Cliven Bundy is not living in poverty while trapped in the system of state welfare. Here is your argument being applied to you.

If you think welfare is not slavery they go be on welfare otherwise you don't mean it when you say welfare is not slavery.

He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective. From his perspective, there is no difference between lack of freedom do to chains and lack of freedom do to economic oppression. Which is why he wondered if blacks would be better off with physical chains vs mental chains. I think it is a valid point in the context of uniting all races under the idea of freedom.

There is no one alive today that can tell us what is like to live in physical chains expect perhaps political prisoners and criminals. I think physical slavery is a horrible and crude way of enslavement. I am just not naive enough to believe it is the only way to enslave, and I am certainly not willing to ignore other forms of slavery because they are not physically painful or have some material reward attached.

You are incapable of putting his claim to the test without attempting to corner the mind into a way of thinking whereby freedom means the lack of physical chains. It would seem that you are making it your problem, but that I believe is a side effect of the shifting of your own chains in response to this episode. I would argue that this controversial point that we are discussing has probably cause more than few people to recognize their own mental oppression. It has certainly exposed that among the casual observers who cry out "RACISM!" and stoop to even lower levels in their hatred for the man. People are even going so far as to mimic state propaganda and we even have the president of the united states making jokes about it targeting Rand Paul.

There is obviously uneasiness with the establishment who knows full well how to utilize and manipulate their mental slaves. They witnessed those chains loosen as well, thanks to Cliven Bundy speaking the truth about lack of freedom across all races. Cliven called for racial unity. If you missed that part, it's probably because that metaphorical cracking of the whip has deafened you to the call.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Do you agree or not that blacks are better off as slaves? Is that a fair question to ask a simple yes/no answer to?

 

[PRB]

You make no sense. Cliven Bundy is not living in poverty while trapped in the system of state welfare. Here is your argument being applied to you.

If you think welfare is not slavery they go be on welfare otherwise you don't mean it when you say welfare is not slavery.

I don't need welfare to be slavery for me to not want it. BUT, I can say with a straight face that given a choice, I prefer welfare over slavery. I am willing to bet everybody who has experienced either would agree with me, but those who do not, I'd be happy to hear their perspective, and see if they can demonstrate it by actually choosing it.

I can ask ANY slave in shackles if they prefer to be NOT in shackles, but try asking anybody on welfare if they prefer to be in shackles. (assuming a person isn't in prison)

Anybody who disagrees with me is free to prove it to me.

"He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective."

And in my perspective, being raped is preferable to eating a sandwich, the fact a person is imaginative enough to have a perspective does not mean it's free from criticism or correction, or testing of whether a person is serious about .

 

[pcosmar]

Do you agree or not that blacks are better off as slaves? Is that a fair question to ask a simple yes/no answer to?

I have no full understanding of the plan and purposed of the creator. How he works in each and every life.
Slavery is and was a reality. It was widely practiced at that time and for thousands of years of human existence,, and was on it's way out of common practice when this country was formed. God has used men and women as slaves to the benefit of all mankind. I would not chose it,, and would not own a slave myself.

But one,,helped to establish the earliest colonies. and taught the pilgrims to survive here.
How do you think that Indian learned to speak English?

I find it sad that people who have since been free would chose to make themselves slaves once again.. and that is Welfare.. A slave to the state.
I knew few Black people growing up,, and only made friends with some later in life,, but I saw it with the Indians here. I have seen whole generations grow up in welfare slavery.. Dependent on the state for their survival.

No,, I do not think slavery is a "good thing",,but to have opportunity to be free and to chose slavery or be tricked into it,, is worse.

 

[PRB]

There is no one alive today that can tell us what is like to live in physical chains expect perhaps political prisoners and criminals. I think physical slavery is a horrible and crude way of enslavement. I am just not naive enough to believe it is the only way to enslave, and I am certainly not willing to ignore other forms of slavery because they are not physically painful or have some material reward attached.

I am with you on not being ok with other forms of enslavement, but if you dare say any form of current modern enslavement in the US, other than prison, is worse than the slavery conditions in the past, again, i will challenge you to say you prefer it and actually mean it. I don't think you need to experience first hand being in shackles to know you don't like it or want it. But I can tell you being on welfare isn't the end of the world (not even close), it may not be preferable to not having a job, but it doesn't force me to not have one, and I am always free to seek employment if I don't like it. That's the difference, the choice is still there, and I am not force to stay on welfare.

 

[PRB]

No,, I do not think slavery is a "good thing",,but to have opportunity to be free and to chose slavery or be tricked into it,, is worse.

this here is the OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCE between pre-1860 slavery and today, YOU CAN ACTUALLY teach people to stop being dependent, and they may actually be able to get out if they tried hard enough, this is NOTHING LIKE the legal and physical impossibilities pre-1860 (people today, like you said, are TRICKED, not FORCED). A person today doesn't need a weapon to break free from the state's welfare cage, he only needs to not be handicapped, willing to put in time, and demand equality as his fellow citizens have it (short of being in prison).

If you were a pre-1860 slave, good luck running away, good luck surviving on your own, where the government does not even try to protect your right to live.

Am I not giving you enough reasons to say it's day and night difference? I am NOT saying welfare is a good thing either, but to say it's as enslaving as slavery pre-1860 is just ignorant and insulting.

 

[oldietech]

I don't need welfare to be slavery for me to not want it. BUT, I can say with a straight face that given a choice, I prefer welfare over slavery. I am willing to bet everybody who has experienced either would agree with me, but those who do not, I'd be happy to hear their perspective, and see if they can demonstrate it by actually choosing it.

I can ask ANY slave in shackles if they prefer to be NOT in shackles, but try asking anybody on welfare if they prefer to be in shackles. (assuming a person isn't in prison)

Anybody who disagrees with me is free to prove it to me.

"He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective."

And in my perspective, being raped is preferable to eating a sandwich, the fact a person is imaginative enough to have a perspective does not mean it's free from criticism or correction, or testing of whether a person is serious about .

But that is a lie. It is not your perspective. You only think he wasn't serious about what he said because at this point, it is pretty obvious you don't know what he said, or you simply ignore the context and pull out the piece you don't like.

Regardless, you still fail to realize that someone who is a mental slave is not going to recognize their own captivity. So what you would be asking them would come across as you are putting it. Would you rather be a slave or on welfare is not the correct question.

The correct question is did slaves in early America live better lives than those in modern day poverty stuck on government welfare? I think that is a fair question. Here are some initial arguments.

Slaves in early America saw increasingly better standards of living and life expectancy and birthrates than their counterparts around the world. Today, we have this http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html

Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion
On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.

Is this a side effect of poverty and welfare?

Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America. Are we being targeted? Isn't that genocide?

Sounds quite a bit worse than physical chains to me.

We could make some other comparisons, such as what happens to the men and the family unit and compare those as well. But chew on that for a minute.

 

[oldietech]

this here is the OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCE between pre-1860 slavery and today, YOU CAN ACTUALLY teach people to stop being dependent, and they may actually be able to get out if they tried hard enough, this is NOTHING LIKE the legal and physical impossibilities pre-1860 (people today, like you said, are TRICKED, not FORCED). A person today doesn't need a weapon to break free from the state's welfare cage, he only needs to not be handicapped, willing to put in time, and demand equality as his fellow citizens have it (short of being in prison).

If you were a pre-1860 slave, good luck running away, good luck surviving on your own, where the government does not even try to protect your right to live.

Am I not giving you enough reasons to say it's day and night difference? I am NOT saying welfare is a good thing either, but to say it's as enslaving as slavery pre-1860 is just ignorant and insulting.

No one is suggesting that at all, you are misunderstanding and putting that slant on it. what is being said is that not much has improved for many and it's possible it has gotten worse.

 

[PRB]

But that is a lie. It is not your perspective. You only think he wasn't serious about what he said because at this point, it is pretty obvious you don't know what he said, or you simply ignore the context and pull out the piece you don't like.

I am willing to admit I didn't hear or understand him correctly. So I will ask you again.
DID HE or DID HE NOT claim that welfare is worse than slavery?
Is there ANYBODY who has experienced either, who claims the same?

Regardless, you still fail to realize that someone who is a mental slave is not going to recognize their own captivity. So what you would be asking them would come across as you are putting it. Would you rather be a slave or on welfare is not the correct question.

Funny that you say regardless. I'll use that word too. REGARDLESS of whether a person recognizes his mental captivity, I am STILL willing to bet that mental captivity is preferable to physical captivity. I am STILL betting nobody will say he prefers physical captivity. Prove me wrong.

The correct question is did slaves in early America live better lives than those in modern day poverty stuck on government welfare? I think that is a fair question. Here are some initial arguments.

I actually think it's the same question, except one would be asking people who have first hand experience, which is supposedly more accurate. To deny this would mean I can comment on another person's life and judge its merits without being in his/her shoes.

Slaves in early America saw increasingly better standards of living and life expectancy and birthrates than their counterparts around the world. Today, we have this http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html

You are comparing slaves in the US to people around the world, that wasn't the question. Again, linking a page about genocide via abortion ignores the fact that abortion is a choice as a result of poverty, which supposedly welfare was meant to avoid, oh wait, I lost my train of thought. Is welfare breaking up families or assisting families? Do people abort more when there's more or less welfare? Help me get your conspiracy theory straight.

Ask anybody who's had an abortion. Ask anybody who wanted an abortion but couldn't. Ask all of them whether having welfare to guarantee the child wouldn't starve or aborting a baby out of fear that it might starve, which is preferable.

Wait, I thought we were talking about slave lives vs modern American blacks...where did we leave off?

Is this a side effect of poverty and welfare?

Sounds quite a bit worse than physical chains to me.

We could make some other comparisons, such as what happens to the men and the family unit and compare those as well. But chew on that for a minute.

This is worse from YOUR perspective, would you be willing to say that given 2 choices, you choose physical chains? Honestly?

Is it not fair to ask YOU, YOUR choice, since after all, it's YOUR perspective?

I am willing to say slavery is NOT preferable, and if you had me choose to live in today's world, abortion, welfare, unemployment, I'd find it still far preferable to physical shackles, in fact I'd gladly volunteer it to prove a point, I dare you to do the same to back up your nonsense claim that slavery is better.

(Don't even bother telling me X worse than Y isn't the same as saying Y is better than X, it is!)

 

[PRB]

No one is suggesting that at all, you are misunderstanding and putting that slant on it. what is being said is that not much has improved for many and it's possible it has gotten worse.

Have those who claim it has gotten worse for them raise their hands, if they're not in prison, I'll listen to what they say, and I'll be happy to enslave them, since it's better.

Gotten worse means the past was better, so anybody claiming that should have no problem switching. Finding outliers is a nice strategy, I'm sure I can find people who claim being murdered is better than being rich, so what?

"not much has improved" means switching to the past shouldn't be unpreferable.