HOAX EXPOSED: Full Clip Of Cliven Bundy’s Non-Racist, Pro-Black, Pro-Mexican, Anti-Government

[oldietech]

I am willing to admit I didn't hear or understand him correctly. So I will ask you again.
DID HE or DID HE NOT claim that welfare is worse than slavery?
Is there ANYBODY who has experienced either, who claims the same?

You should just go back and listen again.

Funny that you say regardless. I'll use that word too. REGARDLESS of whether a person recognizes his mental captivity, I am STILL willing to bet that mental captivity is preferable to physical captivity. I am STILL betting nobody will say he prefers physical captivity. Prove me wrong.

Why would I prove your wrong. A mental slave will prefer slavery. Someone who is mental free will prefer neither. I thought that would be self evident. Although if you go back and read what I already wrote (hint the matrix), you'll see you are arguing the wrong thing.

I actually think it's the same question, except one would be asking people who have first hand experience, which is supposedly more accurate. To deny this would mean I can comment on another person's life and judge its merits without being in his/her shoes.

It's not the same question tho, notice you said "except". You obviously cannot go back in time and ask, which is probably why Cliven said, "I wonder".

You are comparing slaves in the US to people around the world, that wasn't the question. Again, linking a page about genocide via abortion ignores the fact that abortion is a choice as a result of poverty, which supposedly welfare was meant to avoid, oh wait, I lost my train of thought. Is welfare breaking up families or assisting families? Do people abort more when there's more or less welfare? Help me get your conspiracy theory straight.

I am comparing slaves to slaves. I linked the page because today's black community is concerned about something much worse than physical chains and slavery. Your condescending tone and your several times you have lost track of what we are discussing is a good thing. Perhaps you will discover your free mind and fill in those gaps on your own.

Ask anybody who's had an abortion. Ask anybody who wanted an abortion but couldn't. Ask all of them whether having welfare to guarantee the child wouldn't starve or aborting a baby out of fear that it might starve, which is preferable.

This isn't about abortion. It is about the continued slavery of people via mental oppression long after the physical chains have been cast off. Asking someone which they prefer while limiting their choices is one way to mentally enslave them.

Wait, I thought we were talking about slave lives vs modern American blacks...where did we leave off?

I think you should form a coherent argument and abandon your test. You seemed confused by that line of reasoning.

This is worse from YOUR perspective, would you be willing to say that given 2 choices, you choose physical chains? Honestly?

As long as I have the ability to be 100% free, you will not give me choices. This is why your experiment fails. By accepting your 2 choices, as the only choices, I already place myself under mental slavery. So in reality you are doing exactly what the ruling class do. You say here are 2 choices that no one would naturally pick on their own. My question is, what happens if I come up with my own solution and I chose not participate with you or your state since I don't like any of your choices? Well the state will then put the physical chains on me, and you will claim I got what I deserved. Same outcome, difference is, I am still mentally free. See how that works? No? Not surprised.

Is it not fair to ask YOU, YOUR choice, since after all, it's YOUR perspective?

Sure my choice is to not participate with the state and be free. Are you ok with that? Cause the state is not. The state would either force me to accept substandard living conditions that is arguably worse than living in slavery, OR lock me up in a cage because I refused to cooperate with their schemes.

I am willing to say slavery is NOT preferable, and if you had me choose to live in today's world, abortion, welfare, unemployment, I'd find it still far preferable to physical shackles, in fact I'd gladly volunteer it to prove a point, I dare you to do the same to back up your nonsense claim that slavery is better.

No of course slavery is not preferable. What you fail to realize is that slavery is the lack of freedom. I am not willing to give up an ounce of freedom to prove that one form of slavery is better than the other. It doesn't really matter which is better to be honest, but it is arguable that slave's conditions in the early united states were better than slave conditions anywhere else in the world at the time and steadily improved, while today's mentally enslaved are watching their conditions steady deteriorate.

Tell me, what are all the differences in conditions between a slave and someone in poverty and on welfare that you can think of? Why don't you list them all out?

(Don't even bother telling me X worse than Y isn't the same as saying Y is better than X, it is!)

Doesn't matter which form of slavery is perceived to be better or worse. what matters is recognizing that slavery still exists today despite the missing physical restraints.

you are pretending as if there is some kind of choice, which is why I believe you don't understand my reasoning or Cliven's statements. The question asked by Cliven is basically, "what's the difference between then and now?"

Yes we ALL KNOW BY NOW that slaves were considered property and subhuman, legally owned, sometimes endured harsh punishment, had their families broken up, were indoctrinated refusal to educate (reading and writing prohibited).

The challenge is examining the conditions today and finding freedom from all of the above (and more).

 

[oldietech]

Have those who claim it has gotten worse for them raise their hands, if they're not in prison, I'll listen to what they say, and I'll be happy to enslave them, since it's better.

Gotten worse means the past was better, so anybody claiming that should have no problem switching. Finding outliers is a nice strategy, I'm sure I can find people who claim being murdered is better than being rich, so what?

"not much has improved" means switching to the past shouldn't be unpreferable.

The people that have recognized that the oppression has gotten worse will be fighting for something much better than your offer of slavery. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, you'll have to cut your own grass or pay someone to do it if you can't.

Again, you don't understand mental slavery. Those who see welfare as modern day slavery will have a major problem switching as you put it since it makes absolutely no sense to trade one form of slavery for the other.

not much has improved means IMPROVE IT, not wallow around in something perhaps "slightly" better. Are you still arguing FOR slavery instead of arguing FOR freedom?

[h=1]“If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”[/h]

 

[PRB]

you are pretending as if there is some kind of choice, which is why I believe you don't understand my reasoning or Cliven's statements. The question asked by Cliven is basically, "what's the difference between then and now?"

Physical restraints. That's the difference. Again and again, if you don't think that's a difference, I'd be happy to put them on you.

 

[PRB]

"Asking someone which they prefer while limiting their choices is one way to mentally enslave them. "

LOL, but telling me that one is worse than the other is your entitled opinion, right?

 

[PRB]

not much has improved means IMPROVE IT, not wallow around in something perhaps "slightly" better. Are you still arguing FOR slavery instead of arguing FOR freedom?

I'm not the one making the comparison. I'm definitely arguing FOR freedom, but I won't let a person saying slavery is better than something else get away with it. I recognize varying degrees of freedom, do you?

Let's see if we can agree to agree. If Cliven said instead "Slavery may be over, but there's still a long road to go to get to my ideal of freedom" would he have made the same point without the stupid controversy?

Do you admit comparing slavery to anything going on today (other than prison), is dishonest, ignorant and deserves a correction? Can I compare being raped to eating a sandwich and just say 'Well, that's just my opinion, what's your problem?' and expect you to think nothing, say nothing?

If you want to fight for more freedom, I'm with you. If you want to reduce racism, I'm with you, but how exactly is comparing welfare to shackles helping? At all?! All that does is insult people who have been in shackles who would gladly be without shackles if you gave them a choice.

"Prefer neither" is the same as prefer either. I can say being shot in the head and the heart is equally preferable, and I actually mean it.

 

[oldietech]

Physical restraints. That's the difference. Again and again, if you don't think that's a difference, I'd be happy to put them on you.

that is one difference. shall we examine that? what are the historical facts about slaves and physical restraints? I believe you will be surprised to learn that more than anything what held the slaves in check was the psychological impact of their initial capture along with the cruelty in punishment. It was the threat of force that kept them physically restrained. Yes slaves were shackled in transportation. Once on the plantation, the slaves were let loose to live and work. Many slaves attempted to run away. Many succeeded. Many resisted in other ways. The physical chains is some what of an embellishment of the historical record for its symbolism and imagery.

In any event, only prisoners are in chains today. Prisoners guilty of non-violent crimes make up the majority of prison population which is disproportionately black by the way. There are more people in the black community that are shackled today than their ever were in slave days. I like to see some more research on the actual numbers, but I have a hunch that less than half of the black male population in slave day United States ended up being shackled, while today, I would say that number is well over 50%

 

[oldietech]

I'm not the one making the comparison. I'm definitely arguing FOR freedom, but I won't let a person saying slavery is better than something else get away with it. I recognize varying degrees of freedom, do you?

Let's see if we can agree to agree. If Cliven said instead "Slavery may be over, but there's still a long road to go to get to my ideal of freedom" would he have made the same point without the stupid controversy?

Do you admit comparing slavery to anything going on today (other than prison), is dishonest, ignorant and deserves a correction? Can I compare being raped to eating a sandwich and just say 'Well, that's just my opinion, what's your problem?' and expect you to think nothing, say nothing?

If you want to fight for more freedom, I'm with you. If you want to reduce racism, I'm with you, but how exactly is comparing welfare to shackles helping? At all?! All that does is insult people who have been in shackles who would gladly be without shackles if you gave them a choice.

"Prefer neither" is the same as prefer either. I can say being shot in the head and the heart is equally preferable, and I actually mean it.

I think there are worse things than slavery. I already named one in this thread. No there are not "varying degrees of freedom". Freedom is real simple, its the ability t act, speak, and think without restraint or hindrance. There is no such thing as partial freedom. You are either restrained or you are not being restrained. You are either free or you are enslaved. There is no in between.

He most certainly could have chosen better words, he chose what he know and his point is valid. And no, the minute a white man in the media spot light opens his mouth about blacks, he is immediate cast as a racist. The controversy was a setup.

No, comparing slavery in the 1700's and slavery today is not dishonest. In fact it is ignorant to even suggest it would be dishonest. You clearly haven't been paying attention if you somehow think your have made a point.

You don't need my permission to speak. I generally don't respond to ridiculous analogies. I responded to your challenge because it shows a complete lack of understanding and I thought I may offer you some unsolicited direction on a better course of understanding this topic.

I don't think you understand slavery at all. Slavery is so much worse than simply "shackles". You still won't recognize the mental shackles which are ALWAYS on, unlike the physical shackles that prisoners today and slaves then wore. Those shackles were not on 24/7. Sure slaves then and prisoners now are physically trapped. So are people on welfare today. And just like the slaves then and prisoners now, there is a risk/reward in trying to escape.

You go on preferring and equal shot to the heart and head. I'll go on preferring neither.

 

[Antischism]

I think there are worse things than slavery. I already named one in this thread. No there are not "varying degrees of freedom". Freedom is real simple, its the ability t act, speak, and think without restraint or hindrance. There is no such thing as partial freedom. You are either restrained or you are not being restrained. You are either free or you are enslaved. There is no in between.

He most certainly could have chosen better words, he chose what he know and his point is valid. And no, the minute a white man in the media spot light opens his mouth about blacks, he is immediate cast as a racist. The controversy was a setup.

No, comparing slavery in the 1700's and slavery today is not dishonest. In fact it is ignorant to even suggest it would be dishonest. You clearly haven't been paying attention if you somehow think your have made a point.

You don't need my permission to speak. I generally don't respond to ridiculous analogies. I responded to your challenge because it shows a complete lack of understanding and I thought I may offer you some unsolicited direction on a better course of understanding this topic.

I don't think you understand slavery at all. Slavery is so much worse than simply "shackles". You still won't recognize the mental shackles which are ALWAYS on, unlike the physical shackles that prisoners today and slaves then wore. Those shackles were not on 24/7. Sure slaves then and prisoners now are physically trapped. So are people on welfare today. And just like the slaves then and prisoners now, there is a risk/reward in trying to escape.

You go on preferring and equal shot to the heart and head. I'll go on preferring neither.

You're delusional if you think there's a negligible or non-existent difference between being held captive, beaten, sold, having your family sold, raped, forced to work long hours under harsh conditions, etc. simply for having the wrong skin color and collecting a welfare check. Anyone who isn't fucking stupid will take the welfare check every time if offered one or the other. Hm, let's see... forced labor, beatings, rape, dehumanization, emotional abuse and the possibility of having your family sold off or steady income to use as I move around in an area much larger than a plantation, working out of my own volition and buying things to entertain myself at any time. That's a really fucking hard decision, man.

Comparing slavery and welfare is beyond absurd. If you want to make a point about how awful the welfare state is, go ahead. It can be done without resorting to a false equivalence that in the process attempts to lessen slavery in regards to American history.

Guys, maybe I would have been better off shackled in a prison a couple hundred years ago than stuck in a modern society full of fun things to buy, movies to watch, video games to play, sports to partake in, people to interact with, food to choose from, diverse music to listen to, message boards to post in, books to read, and a check to collect which would allow me to buy some of these luxuries. At least my mind would have been free! Maybe. Wait, no it wouldn't.

 

[squarepusher]

I have no full understanding of the plan and purposed of the creator. How he works in each and every life.
Slavery is and was a reality. It was widely practiced at that time and for thousands of years of human existence,, and was on it's way out of common practice when this country was formed. God has used men and women as slaves to the benefit of all mankind. I would not chose it,, and would not own a slave myself.

But one,,helped to establish the earliest colonies. and taught the pilgrims to survive here.
How do you think that Indian learned to speak English?

I find it sad that people who have since been free would chose to make themselves slaves once again.. and that is Welfare.. A slave to the state.
I knew few Black people growing up,, and only made friends with some later in life,, but I saw it with the Indians here. I have seen whole generations grow up in welfare slavery.. Dependent on the state for their survival.

No,, I do not think slavery is a "good thing",,but to have opportunity to be free and to chose slavery or be tricked into it,, is worse.

So I have to ask, which part of "welfare" do you think is slavery exactly? That is a pretty broad term. Is it Social Security that is slavery? Or Medi-care? Or unemployment insurance? Or food stamps? Are you opposed to Churches helping the less fortunate because it is slavery to the poor/disabled? Are Churches slave-drivers? What about private insurance claims, if your house burns down and your insurance builds a new one for you, are you their slave?

Are you opposed to Welfare for big corporations and banks? Rich people? Farming subsidies? Corporate taxes? Reduced capital gains taxes? Or was your main point just to be able to say that blacks are slaves with a straight face, and back it up with some hogwash?

 

[ClydeCoulter]

So I have to ask, which part of "welfare" do you think is slavery exactly? That is a pretty broad term. Is it Social Security that is slavery? Or Medi-care? Or unemployment insurance? Or food stamps? Are you opposed to Churches helping the less fortunate because it is slavery to the poor/disabled? Are Churches slave-drivers? What about private insurance claims, if your house burns down and your insurance builds a new one for you, are you their slave?

Are you opposed to Welfare for big corporations and banks? Rich people? Farming subsidies? Corporate taxes? Reduced capital gains taxes? Or was your main point just to be able to say that blacks are slaves with a straight face, and back it up with some hogwash?

I think it has to do with the rules.

Like, if a man is in the house you don't get as many (or any in some cases?) benefits or lowered benefits.

Similar to the progressive tax, there are hurdles to jump over. Make a little more, loose a lot.

edit: Some of the "benefits" that you cited are somewhat different, in that some are paid for by the person collecting them, directly or indirectly, and to greater or lesser extent.

 

[PRB]

You're delusional if you think there's a negligible or non-existent difference between being held captive, beaten, sold, having your family sold, raped, forced to work long hours under harsh conditions, etc. simply for having the wrong skin color and collecting a welfare check. Anyone who isn't fucking stupid will take the welfare check every time if offered one or the other. Hm, let's see... forced labor, beatings, rape, dehumanization, emotional abuse and the possibility of having your family sold off or steady income to use as I move around in an area much larger than a plantation, working out of my own volition and buying things to entertain myself at any time. That's a really fucking hard decision, man.

THANK YOU.

 

[AuH20]

Look at the numbers for Christ's sake. Over 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. The incarceration rate is at a staggering 50% rate for 18-25 year old African Americans. It's slavery and it's the most insidious type because many refuse to accept it for what it is (including some in this very thread). At least as chattel, there was a constant reminder of your bondage with physical restraints, but this type of bondage is far more debilitating because it's undermining your dignity & enslaving your mind without any chains.

We've gone from this:

To this:

Is it really much different if you get beaten by your slave master or publicly funded prison guards?

 

[PRB]

Look at the numbers for Christ's sake. Over 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. The incarceration rate is at a staggering 50% rate for 18-25 year old African Americans. It's slavery and it's the most insidious type because many refuse to accept it for what it is (including some in this very thread). At least as chattel, there was a constant reminder of your bondage with physical restraints, but this type of bondage is far more debilitating because it's undermining your dignity & enslaving your mind without any chains.

We've gone from this:

To this:

Is it really much different if you get beaten by your slave master or publicly funded prison guards?

Even I acknowledged that being in prison would be comparable to slavery, despite the difference that prisoners actually committed a crime, even if it's unfairly enforced on blacks.

But to compare blacks today in general to slavery in the past ignores that most blacks are NOT in prison, which is an objective and measureable difference.

Ask any dog if he prefers chain or not chain. Sadly, even a dog knows, but a creative and imaginative person claims chain is preferable

 

[pcosmar]

Even I acknowledged that being in prison would be comparable to slavery, despite the difference that prisoners actually committed a crime,

Some have committed crimes.. Most have not.
I did,, and I have never bitched about it,, or called my crime anything but stupid.. I did know many inside that did not belong there at all.

 

[pcosmar]

"He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective."

This is the Man you are trying to slander,, based on one sentence that was taken out of context of his entire speech.

And the man sitting behind Mr. Bundy is a volunteer and Mr. Bundys personal bodyguard.

And you still want to push this racist bullshit against a man that is standing his ground,, and speaking for all.

Why are you here?

 

[PRB]

Some have committed crimes.. Most have not.
I did,, and I have never bitched about it,, or called my crime anything but stupid.. I did know many inside that did not belong there at all.

if that's the case, then the problem is with racism in our justice system but that still doesn't mean blacks who have not been in prison, or are on welfare, are anywhere better off being in shackles, it's just not. If you are willing to concede that prison needs reform, blacks are still oppressed, but slavery is still much worse, I can stand with you. But if you still say slavery was better for some people, I'm going to take issue until somebody is willing to choose it.

 

[pcosmar]

 

[PRB]

This is the Man you are trying to slander,, based on one sentence that was taken out of context of his entire speech.

And the man sitting behind Mr. Bundy is a volunteer and Mr. Bundys personal bodyguard.

And you still want to push this racist bullshit against a man that is standing his ground,, and speaking for all.

Why are you here?

I am not accusing him of being racist, but I am accusing him of being wrong if he thinks being a slave is better than being a black person today. I don't care who says it, I'll get on his case until he shows he means it.

Employing and working with black people doesn't automatically make you non-racist, ask Donald Sterling.

 

[pcosmar]

I am not accusing him of being racist,

Yes you are. You are continuing to Troll the "Progressive" positions,, and slander the man because you either don't understand the point he was making or because you wish to defend welfare subjugation . I expect it is the latter.

http://www.getpurpose.org/publications/perspective/NewCultureOfSlavery.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/slavery-did-not-destroy-black-families.-welfare-did/
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/s...cle_257b8879-1564-5dde-928c-37713a2cd9c1.html
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598
http://cslewisjrrtolkien.classicalautographs.com/cslewis/bookexcerpts/willingslaveswelfarestate.html

And though I doubt you have any interest in the words of those far more articulate than me..
I post these links for the intelligent among us,, so they can understand YOU.

 

[PRB]

Yes you are. You are continuing to Troll the "Progressive" positions,, and slander the man because you either don't understand the point he was making or because you wish to defend welfare subjugation . I expect it is the latter.

http://www.getpurpose.org/publications/perspective/NewCultureOfSlavery.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/slavery-did-not-destroy-black-families.-welfare-did/
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/s...cle_257b8879-1564-5dde-928c-37713a2cd9c1.html
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598
http://cslewisjrrtolkien.classicalautographs.com/cslewis/bookexcerpts/willingslaveswelfarestate.html

And though I doubt you have any interest in the words of those far more articulate than me..
I post these links for the intelligent among us,, so they can understand YOU.

I am not pro-welfare, but I don't think it's fair to say it's worse than slavery, or even comparable.

I admit I don't understand his point, which is why I keep asking if I missed something.