Help... 18 year old brother wants to join the military

[Andrew-Austin]

The government might 'fail' in some respects, everyone else that inhabits peaceful society would be just fine. The idea that any country would invade the United States is utterly bonkers. I don't think I need to debate this point and get in to the details, but suffice it to say a) we have nukes and b) we have guns behind every blade of grass.

Do you mind explaining to me, in detail, how the statement I bolded from the quote does not contradict everything else you said?

In case you are not familiar with libertarian class analysis: there is the state/the rulers, and there is the tax payers/the ruled over people.

We the people are not the government. I was being intentionally vague about how exactly the government might fail, if it were to say fail in its objectives of waging an unjust war, we the people would be just fine.

You don't actually think wars today are fought for defense purposes do you?

Furthermore, simply "participating" in a war is immoral under which moral standard? The namesake of this forum believes in the Just War Doctrine, or a form of it.

I would define a just war as one that is funded voluntarily and merely seeks to bring certain criminal aggressors to justice.

The person I was responding to was referring to today's wars, which you should know are not just at all.

As for the rest of your post, it is rather mindless. Working in the military isn't "earning" money, eh? It comes from violent extortion, eh? Someone needs to read a dictionary...

I was defining 'earning money' as rendering a service to those who will voluntarily pay for it. That is how we do it on the free market, but this is not how it works for the military. Taxation is theft, even the most hardcore constitutionalists struggle to do the mental gymnastics to prove that it is not. A thief might have to break a sweat, and 'work' to get his loot, but he hasn't earned it. And it would also be awkward to say if someone were to render services for this thief in the name of the victim, his payment for that 'service' hasn't really been earned from the original owner.

Just because you might be caught up in ridiculous lies and propaganda does not mean my post didn't make sense.

 

[surf]

Hunter G - all i know is that if my older brother had said that he felt strongly against something and provided me w/minimal reasoning, i probably would take his advice. you have all the reasoning you need and all the documentation imagineable to show the folly of military enlistment.

so you need to let him know that you think it would be a damn poor choice.

 

[Wampy]

Except you missed the part where Jennifoo said it isn't actually serving one's "country".

Her characterization does not change why people join. It does not matter what she said.

Even just joining the military and participating in a war is immoral. And war is a major enemy of liberty.

And if everyone felt the same way, see the paragraph below.

The government might 'fail' in some respects, everyone else that inhabits peaceful society would be just fine. The idea that any country would invade the United States is utterly bonkers. I don't think I need to debate this point and get in to the details, but suffice it to say a) we have nukes and b) we have guns behind every blade of grass.
At most they would strategically strike government centers as a retaliatory measure to some act of aggression the US committed against them, even that is hard to imagine but if it did I wouldn't really care.

And who would fire the nukes? You? Are you gonna play John Wayne taking cover behind the oak tree bravely fighting off trained troops? (speaking of fantasies) If everyone felt the way you do and we had no one to man a standing military, why wouldn’t China or Russia invade? Hell, maybe Chavez would give it a shot, though he would need more numbers than he’s got to control so much territory. On the other hand, he has plenty of political allies here aleady. Perhaps you just enjoy railing against those who make the choice, in the knowledge that they won’t really listen so there will always be someone covering your ass, no matter what you think or say about them.

You are completely full of it. You haven't even made an argument here. You are just saying "somehow, in some abstract way, the military is serving 'the people/the country' (all of us), though I can't really say exactly how"…
…Except you have still failed to explain how the troops are actually serving and protecting us.

I think I covered that above. Are you gonna fire the nukes? Even when we have a military, but appear politically weak, we are challenged. It’s just a fact of geopolitics. Hell, there really is not much difference between geopolitics and a grade school playground except the scale. If everyone listens to you, we have no military, someone will come and provide one for us, whether we like it or not. Yes, it is unrealistic, if only because enough people will ignore you and do what has to be done. How they serve you, is that they keep that from happening while you have a chance to get libertarians elected to restore the constitution.

So, complain about the government and how they use the military, but stop insulting those who do what you won’t. Stop wasting their time and their lives, stop insulting them, and get libertarians elected so they can return to their constitutional purpose. Their lives, their service, is buying you time to do something more than sit here and insult them. So go grow the party and win some damn elections!

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Her characterization does not change why people join. It does not matter what she said.

And the reasons why people think they join the military have no bearing on the reality of the matter.

And who would fire the nukes? You? Are you gonna play John Wayne taking cover behind the oak tree bravely fighting off trained troops? (speaking of fantasies) If everyone felt the way you do and we had no one to man a standing military, why wouldn’t China or Russia invade? Hell, maybe Chavez would give it a shot, though he would need more numbers than he’s got to control so much territory. On the other hand, he has plenty of political allies here aleady. Perhaps you just enjoy railing against those who make the choice, in the knowledge that they won’t really listen so there will always be someone covering your ass, no matter what you think or say about them.

Are you dense? It does not take a military to fire a nuke, it probably takes one guy with a fucking button. No country has ever invaded or started a war with another country that has nuclear weapons.

Do you know what an insurgency is? What guerrilla warfare is? What militias are (the voluntary ones as opposed to the federal military)? Do you think any one of the millions of armed Americans would tolerate foreign troops on our soil? Just because (hypothetically) we decided not to have a national monopoly on defense, does not mean there wouldn't be plenty of other ways to provide defense against any suicidal invaders.
The US army has its hands pretty fucking full with just the Iraqi insurgency (which would pale in comparison to an American insurgency), and they will in fact ultimately fail as America goes bankrupt.

How they serve you, is that they keep that from happening while you have a chance to get libertarians elected to restore the constitution.
So, complain about the government and how they use the military, but stop insulting those who do what you won’t.

They. don't. freaking. serve. me. What is so hard to understand about that? Its basic math.

Define what the word 'service' means. And at least attempt to explain how they serve instead of mindlessly accepting rhetoric imbued in you by nationalistic culture.

Stop wasting their time and their lives, stop insulting them, and get libertarians elected so they can return to their constitutional purpose.

Who is wasting who's time? They voluntarily signed up to join the military to fight in completely retarded wars (something you haven't challenged, you just say joining the army is in and of itself a service in some mystic way) with other people's money (that they do not forfeit voluntarily).

Their lives, their service, is buying you time to do something more than sit here and insult them.

I'm not trying to insult them, I'm trying to recognize the reality of matter. I have no grudge against soldiers, I understand a lot of them have good intentions for joining.

But wait, was that some vague outline of an argument right there?

You are saying I wouldn't be able to to sit here at my computer and converse with people on the internet if the troops were not over in the middle east imposing democracy on the Iraqis and liberating muslims from their lives? Please go on. What about the bases in Japan and other foreign countries? Perhaps if we didn't keep an eye on Japan they might plop a missile right through my ceiling?

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

^^^^ That's the kind pictures that gave me a wake-up call that made me abandon my military ambitions when i was younger ^^^^^

+1!

-t

 

[Wampy]

They. don't. freaking. serve. me. What is so hard to understand about that? Its basic math. Define what the word 'service' means. And at least attempt to explain how they serve instead of mindlessly accepting rhetoric imbued in you by nationalistic culture.

Much like the cops and firefighters, they do, whether you like it or not, whether you like them or not. You think they are idiots, so it must be so. They feel they are joining to serve you, it must be so. Extra periods don’t change anything.

You want to know what service is? Putting your life in danger, voluntarily giving up your own freedoms to do the things someone has to do for the community. Yes, someone has to be a soldier. Someone has to be a cop. Someone has to be a firefighter. You may not like how they are being used, but they did not join to serve congress or the president.

Who is wasting who's time? They voluntarily signed up to join the military to fight in completely retarded wars (something you haven't challenged, you just say joining the army is in and of itself a service in some mystic way) with other people's money (that they do not forfeit voluntarily).

Ain’t nothing mystic about it buttercup. One firefight, one casualty will fix that fantasy. You may not have noticed, but I have not commented on the role they are be put in at all, except to say that you should be working to return the military to their constitutional purpose. The exception I am taking is how you characterize the individuals who serve and their motivations. By the way, if you are so passionate about it, have you paid your taxes lately? Are you not paying in protest?

I'm not trying to insult them, I'm trying to recognize the reality of matter. I have no grudge against soldiers, though I disprove of them joining.

Couldn’t tell… The reality of why they join, the reality of what they allow you to do, if you take the chance, have nothing to do with the reality of how they are being used or your disapproval of their decision. The police are being used in unconstitutional ways, do you disapprove of anyone becoming a cop? Do you think they are idiots for letting themselves be used by “the man”?

But wait, was that some vague outline of an argument right there?

Not that I noticed. Your argument seems to basically consist of these volunteers being immoral and deluded. I did not see anyone arguing about the nature of the conflicts currently in question. So no, not much of an argument that I had noticed.

You are saying I wouldn't be able to to sit here at my computer and converse with people on the internet if the troops were not over in the middle east imposing democracy on the Iraqis and liberating muslims from their lives? Please go on.

Not at all. Speaking of emotional, mystical BS. I never mentioned those conflicts. I never ascribed your ability to bitch and whine about volunteers to winning the hearts and minds of medieval religious fanatics. Just their willingness to do what you will not. If no one was not willing to serve, your ability to look down upon them would be more circumscribed. That has nothing to do with the constitutionality of the uses they are currently being put to, or whether any of us agree or not.

You want to change it, get elected or elect people who will return the constitution to it's proper place.

 

[andrewh817]

Show him this video........ it's a little on the long side but gives some great arguments against joining the military.

YouTube - How to stay out of the Army...

 

[Danke]

UNIVERSAL SOLDIER
Buffy Sainte-Marie
© Caleb Music-ASCAP

He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.

 

[dannno]

Wampy, why would you want someone to enlist themselves to work for a criminal organization?? Just because the criminals stole the identity of a country that once held ideals that you believe in? Come on, that's pretty silly.

Our military is used for global imperialism, they don't work to keep us safe, they end up making us less safe!! I'm not saying that is the intention of the individuals serving, I'm just hitting you with a cold dose of reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

This is serious, we cannot support what they are doing. Again, our military is NOT making us safer. We need to change the political landscape so that our military becomes a defender of our country so that individuals can truly be proud to serve. That is what WE are doing and people in the military (less a small minority) are NOT.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Wampy, why would you want someone to enlist themselves to work for a criminal organization?? Just because the criminals stole the identity of a country that once held ideals that you believe in? Come on, that's pretty silly.

Our military is used for global imperialism, they don't work to keep us safe, they end up making us less safe!! I'm not saying that is the intention of the individuals serving, I'm just hitting you with a cold dose of reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

This is serious, we cannot support what they are doing. Again, our military is NOT making us safer. We need to change the political landscape so that our military becomes a defender of our country so that individuals can truly be proud to serve. That is what WE are doing and people in the military (less a small minority) are NOT.

This is bullshit. The Military donated to Ron Paul more than anyone. Stop your damn generalizing. It's not the Military, it's the politicians that make the decisions.

 

[Wampy]

This is serious, we cannot support what they are doing. Again, our military is NOT making us safer. We need to change the political landscape so that our military becomes a defender of our country so that individuals can truly be proud to serve. That is what WE are doing and people in the military (less a small minority) are NOT.

I understand your viewpoint, I did not say I disagreed. However, Getting everyone to quit and not join, is no more realistic or useful than telling all cops to quit because they are being asked to enforce unconstitutional laws.

If the time comes when you have the government turn the military and the police against the people... Think Iran, not Pittsburgh... These are the kinds of people who won't shoot. These are the kinds of people who will look around and say no. Generals, officers, that girl's brother, these are the people who will not follow that order. I know most of us think the worst of the government, but these are exactly the kinds of people who we should encourage to join the police and join the military. The kind of delusion my esteemed colleague refers to, is exactly the kind of thinking that will bring them to look at an order to snipe peaceful protesters in the street, and cause them to walk away.

Support those kinds of people. Someday, they may be the ones that make the difference. I can only hope not.

 

[NerveShocker]

Tell him to refuse any shots they try to give him. There are over 5 vaccines they will offer for people to take for multiple reasons mostly they say it is so you wont contract any serious deseases while in the middle east. I swear to you I know of a commander of a squadron in Iraq whose squad leader refused the vaccines because they are optional and he had heard very negative things about them. His entire squad followed suit.

His squad was one of the only if not the only squad that returned home without any serious mental or physical disabilties (aside from combat wounds). These vaccines can do everything from making you excessively violent and angry to creating serious long-lasting mental disablities. At the very least have him promise to refuse any of these terrible vaccinations. He is well within his rights to do so and they will still allow him to serve.

 

[rpfan2008]

YouTube - "Operation in Afghanistan is rooted in Israel"

1cent

 

[Baptist]

OP, make sure he visits Google Images and types in "Iraq War." We have no idea what is going on over there. Every few months I spend a few hours looking at photos from Iraq. Some are good, like a U.S. soldier passing out candy to a kid, and some are bad, like blown up humans. He needs to see the face of war, so that he knows what he's getting into to.

Also, he should watch videos of American vehicles being blown up on Liveleak.

Lastly, find him a woman so he gets whipped. Then he won't want to leave. That, or have him start playing World or Warcraft.

 

[libertarian4321]

Fighter pilots also have very strict standards in terms of physical size, vision, reflexes, etc. I wouldn't recommend somebody joining the Air Force in the hopes of becoming a fighter pilot.

More importantly, you don't talk to a recruiter if you want to be a pilot.

Pilots are officers. You need to finish college before you become a pilot.

If someone wants to get military benefits without actually having to do anything dangerous, the Navy is the best choice (as long as you avoid being a corpsman or anything else that could be attached to a Marine unit).

The Navy hasn't done any real fighting since WW2, and isn't likely to do any in the near future, given that the US Navy is large enough to wipe out all the other Navies in the world (combined) without even breaking a sweat.

Just get a ship board MOS and spend your career fat, dumb and happy safely floating around on a big ship hundreds of miles away from any war zone.

 

[libertarian4321]

Tell him to refuse any shots they try to give him. There are over 5 vaccines they will offer for people to take for multiple reasons mostly they say it is so you wont contract any serious deseases while in the middle east. I swear to you I know of a commander of a squadron in Iraq whose squad leader refused the vaccines because they are optional and he had heard very negative things about them. His entire squad followed suit.

His squad was one of the only if not the only squad that returned home without any serious mental or physical disabilties (aside from combat wounds). These vaccines can do everything from making you excessively violent and angry to creating serious long-lasting mental disablities. At the very least have him promise to refuse any of these terrible vaccinations. He is well within his rights to do so and they will still allow him to serve.

If you join the military, you will be required to do many things civilians are not required to do- and one of those things is taking vaccination shots. It's not up for discussion or debate, and it's only optional in that the probably won't throw you to the ground and stick the needle in you.

If some enlistee refused his shots, they'd probably give him a quick discharge (and probably not an honorable discharge)- which would kind of defeat the point of enlisting in the first place.

BTW, I haven't heard the "horror stories" you In almost 30 years in the Army, I've received a lot of vaccinations, and I haven't experienced any negative reactions. BTW, the first series of shots you get are routine shots- the same stuff civilians get.

They don't inject you with the "death shot" until later, lol.

 

[KenInMontiMN]

It will always be true that standing armies will be put to use by those who wish to wield such forces, for their own ends - all the while passing the bill off to the taxpayer, despite those in control being among the world's wealthiest individuals and corporations.

Joining the armed forces voluntarily amounts to agreeing to prostitute your body and your services to those who would use you toward their own ends, whatever those may be - but they will be ends that would not occur naturally through peaceful negotiation, but rather require a show of force to accomplish. Your Johns that use you will not even be honest Johns, but rather have put measures in place to insure others are to pay for your services, and should those others decline to do that, they will be forcibly robbed if necessary, and deprived of their constitutional liberties. So essentially you will be prostituting yourself out to thieves, kidnappers, and murderers.

Now it goes without saying that most potential recruits have never thought through their enlistment in those terms; and needless to say the contract recruits enter into with the armed forces orgs does not contain the above language. It should.

At the top of our military are many who do fully understand these things that are implicit in military service as it exists in our country today, and choose it for themselves - and for the rest of us, since we pay the freight directly through taxation and indirectly through accumulation of debt.

In an invasion scenario where we are directly under attack enlistment is fully supportable and commendable; in the present scenario of standing armies deployed overseas to maintain an ongoing show of force for empire-building purposes, the principle and standards of those enlisting are very much an open question.

In a perfect world, the would-be empire-builders fund their own armies and recruit privately, and there is no question as to where the loyalties of those recruits lie - to those who sign their paycheck; simultaneously the US armed forces, whatever size they are maintained at for peacetime purposes, actually are deadly serious about their oath, at all levels, top to bottom, and never sell themselves to the global industrialists and financiers for the purpose of interventions for economic and empire-building reasons.

 

[fisharmor]

By far the best branch is the Coast Guard. You get to save lives, though 99% of my job is so damn boring. We are a really relaxed branch. Just about everyone I work with are really chill and everyone is on a first name basis. Of course, we are all enlisted. Officer Corps is another story.....

My uncle was at Iwo Jima and Tinian. My dad is 17 years younger.
When my dad graduated HS he asked my uncle about joining the Marines as well.
My uncle said "Look, if you're smart, you'll get with an outfit that feeds you three squares a day and gives you a bed to sleep in."
So he joined the CG and retired after 27 years.

All things considered, my dad also probably saw as much adventure as my uncle, but none of it was combat. My uncle died a haunted man from what WWII did to him. My dad got his adventure flying around in choppy weather trying to save people, and now he sleeps just fine at night.

Did I miss something? Are most libertarians against serving their community? When did "we are against interventionism and going to a war that is not in self defense" turn into anti-serving-your-country?

Well, from my standpoint, I disagree with the mere existence of a police force or a standing army. Four years of voluntary slavery to the government is a poor substitute for a lifetime of membership in the militia. So in the end, I am more in favor of serving my community and nation than those who "are in favor of service".

 

[Elwar]

Ok, I didn't read through all of the responses but I'm a defense contractor and have worked with military guys since I got out of college.

I was poor, no money for college but I got grants and loans which got me through 5.5 years of college. After college (back in '97) I started working with a salary of $45k as a defense contractor. My buddy who had the same degree and graduated at the same time was in ROTC and went on to join the army. He started as a Lieutenant and was making far less than $45k at that point. From college I had racked up $20k in student loans and paid those off in the first 2 years of work. The whole time, I've got a great retirement plan and get to travel all over the country for work if I want to. I get to work with high ranking military officers as a peer instead of a subordinate, shooting the shit with generals while the lower ranks have to do the "yes sir, no sir" thing.

Fast forward a few years while I'm making the big bucks (beefing up that retirement account) to the war in Iraq. The soldiers are going off to fight and they get a slight pay increase for going out there (I think the rank of Lieutenant is around $60k or so while out there), I signed up to take a defense contract job in Iraq when at the time I was making over $80k in the US. By going over there my salary was tripled with the first $80k tax free. So I'm making about a quarter of a million dollars working along side soldiers who have to follow all of their rules and procedures, carrying their huge rifles everywhere they go (even when eating), they get guard duty standing out in the hot sun and all of this other crap that they have to put up with for a lot less than I make. I'm sitting in an air conditioned room working on a computer, just as I would in the US. The soldiers have to go off and fight and risk their lives. I am one of the guys that those soldiers are there to protect and defend with their lives. I had a room to myself, most soldiers had cots with a foot locker. Plus, I flew over there in business class, I was given a free flight anywhere for a month vacation and I only had to be out there as long as I felt like it.

Right now I'm making more than the $80k I was making at that point, plus my work is paying for my masters degree. I was able to pay cash for a new car when I got back and put down over $100k on my house.

So, sure you get a nice retirement if you stick through it with the military...but for my retirement I'll have a (really nice) house paid off, I'll have over $2 million in my retirement account and will more than likely have all of my limbs.

As for getting in shape...I can go out on my lunch break and go to the gym to get a decent work out the way that I want to get in shape, not some doctrined standard.

 

[KenInMontiMN]

In a perfect world, Elwar, the internationalists fund your employer - not the US govt. You don't mind if we all come over and splash around in your pool whenever we feel like it since we all chipped in and bought it involuntarily?