H1B Visas... We should stop them immediately!

[Kalifornia]

I dont know why you guys continue to argue with the open border free immigration people. They are the reason I left the Libertarian party. Theory is great, but it doesnt always work in the real world. If the maintenance of American culture, sovereignty, and our middle class arent good enough reasons to convince these people that sensible and sane immigration limits are what make sense, regardless of the immigrants skillsets, then nothing is going to convince them.

The crappy rationalization of these folks is the very reason I left IT and went to law school. (also the same kind of crappy rationalization of the anti-net neutrality people) Im not really interested in being forced to compete with people who sleep on dirt floors and are socialized from infanthood to forgo any kind of positive life experiences or creativity just so they can be better EMPLOYEE engineers (as in bereft of creativity, great at taking orders and churning out code like a monkey putting spindles in boxes). Americans have historically turned out the best new innovations because we think outside the box, not because we can work 18 hours a day for a few grains of rice.

America is America because of our culture. Not because of cheap labor and totally open borders. Im not really interested in living in an worldwide anarchocapitalistic feudalism. Id be quite happy to live in the America that the founders, particulary Jefferson envisioned. He never contemplated mass immigration of foreign workers while qualified US workers sit on the sideline. Neither do I.

 

[AutoDas]

uh huh yeah whatev

 

[DriftWood]

Nope! Not even close! Care to guess again? ( Deja vu, all over again )

Nice out of context editing job there, Slick!

( Hint: How does Ron Paul vote on H-1B measures? )

Clues for sale! Get 'em right here!

Look, you can not have your cake and eat it too. Unions are usually special interests groups trying to get protection from competition. You can not keep high wages without also keeping a high price on the product you produce. This is especially true in IT, where wages are the biggest cost of production. A low cost employee, is a more cost effective / productive employee. The business will be able to lower the cost of production and this will reflect in the price of the product. It will be reflected in price because different producers are in competition for the same customers. The consumers will benefit from low price by having more money over to buy other things. And in the end we are all customers of other peoples products so everyone benefits from a free unregulated market. Wages are just another price, and it should not get any special protection.

I am a programmer also, so i know the "pain" of having to compete with low cost labor from Asia. However i know this situation is no different from the past. Just as foolish as it is to subsidize high cost farmers so that they can compete with 3rd world countries, or high cost auto makers so they can compete against Japan, or to subsidize high cost textile workers in the industrial revolution. The only way to stay in business and keep your high salary is to stay competitive, in IT it means being smarter, more educated, more experienced, better at what you do than the new low cost guy from India. Find a niche that everyone is not doing. Eighter that adapt to lower wages or switch careers. Barriers will not work. Just imagine what would have happened during the industrial revolution to a country that tried to protect its high cost labor, by not buying more efficient machines. Yupp, that would have been the end of the industry in that country.

Cheers

 

[DriftWood]

People here seem to forget that wage is just another price. It is set by demand and supply. You can try to keep a price higher than it should (if left to the free market) by getting your govt to make regulations to keep the supply down. This is what caps on working visas are about. You are getting protection from competition. You might say that your wage would go down to an unfair level if everyone with your skills was allowed to get into the country and compete for the jobs. There is no such thing as fair wage. If you cant sell your skills for a certain price then you are overpricing your skills. The only fair thing is for people with the same skills to compete. The market will then set the price / the wage at an the correct price for your skills. Regulations to keep wages high, is just as foolish as price fixing to keep a commodity high. Society as a whole suffers because consumers have to pay a higher price for a product that is worth less. The consumers will have that much less money to buy other thing. The consumer and the whole society will be poorer as a result. Regulations like these destroy wealth. Free market creates wealth. Switch perspectives and see yourself as a consumer instead of a producer for a minute. The only reason we produce is so that we can consume. Consumption is the end goal. We can consume more and work less by letting the free market bring prices of products down. This is how wealth is created.

Thats my last post about this matter..

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

We should probably look into eliminating the VISA system and just allowing anyone that wants to enter the US to enter.

 

[DriftWood]

Yes that video "Free To Choose" is great. Thanks apc3161 for the link. It even mentions the topic about barriers on competition and adapting to changes in the price system. It is easy to forget that what made US so wealthy and successful was the free market and letting foreigners in to compete for work, without govt regulations and restrictions. Nothing has changed, freedom still works. Its the only way to a more wealthy society.
http://www.ideachannel.tv/

Cheers

 

[Kalifornia]

when will you knuckleheads come to the realization that no borders = no nations. Nations should be free to compete amongst each other with products, and within themselves for labor. It has always been such for as long as nations have existed. Your an-cap utopia would mean the plain and simple nonexistance of the USA, poof, gone. All that would remain is worldwide capitalistic fiefdoms.

You simply have not thought this through to its natural and inevitable conclusion.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Look, you can not have your cake and eat it too. Unions are usually special interests groups trying to get protection from competition. You can not keep high wages without also keeping a high price on the product you produce. This is especially true in IT, where wages are the biggest cost of production. A low cost employee, is a more cost effective / productive employee. The business will be able to lower the cost of production and this will reflect in the price of the product. It will be reflected in price because different producers are in competition for the same customers. The consumers will benefit from low price by having more money over to buy other things. And in the end we are all customers of other peoples products so everyone benefits from a free unregulated market. Wages are just another price, and it should not get any special protection.

I am a programmer also, so i know the "pain" of having to compete with low cost labor from Asia. However i know this situation is no different from the past. Just as foolish as it is to subsidize high cost farmers so that they can compete with 3rd world countries, or high cost auto makers so they can compete against Japan, or to subsidize high cost textile workers in the industrial revolution. The only way to stay in business and keep your high salary is to stay competitive, in IT it means being smarter, more educated, more experienced, better at what you do than the new low cost guy from India. Find a niche that everyone is not doing. Eighter that adapt to lower wages or switch careers. Barriers will not work. Just imagine what would have happened during the industrial revolution to a country that tried to protect its high cost labor, by not buying more efficient machines. Yupp, that would have been the end of the industry in that country.

Cheers

I wasn't advocating unions. I chose The Programmers Guild quote, link and post mainly to highlight that the issues are real, serious and widespread and NOT merely local and personal. I started programming for pay in 1969. Back then the people were cheap and the computers were the most expensive costs of production. Over time the situations have reversed.

BTW, I'm not a "cost of production". I'm a human being, hardworking US citizen and taxpayer. I have analyzed this situation thoroughly to try to understand just where I went wrong. My final primary conclusion is that my unpardonable "sin" is that I just got older. Sorry, I really can't do too much about that one. Doesn't that happen to almost everyone? FACTOID: On average 12,000+ boomers turn 50 every day. We have now reached the point where in addition to that now on average 12,000+ boomers turn 60 every day also.

I have no problems with the people coming here trying to improve their lives. I have HUGE problems with government programs designed to use and abuse them ( and me ) and to "artificially" make my work life unnecessarily more challenging and difficult. How does the individual fight the "system"? I truly believe that the IT industry in the US has gone totally insane ( with government assistance ).

The chickens will and are coming home to roost. Beware the "Law of Unintended Consequences".

The stealth war on the US middle class continues. Are YOU the next war casualty?

Thanks!

 

[DriftWood]

I wasn't advocating unions. I chose The Programmers Guild quote, link and post mainly to highlight that the issues are real, serious and widespread and NOT merely local and personal. I started programming for pay in 1969. Back then the people were cheap and the computers were the most expensive costs of production. Over time the situations have reversed.

BTW, I'm not a "cost of production". I'm a human being, hardworking US citizen and taxpayer. I have analyzed this situation thoroughly to try to understand just where I went wrong. My final primary conclusion is that my unpardonable "sin" is that I just got older. Sorry, I really can't do too much about that one. Doesn't that happen to almost everyone? FACTOID: On average 12,000+ boomers turn 50 every day. We have now reached the point where in addition to that now on average 12,000+ boomers turn 60 every day also.

I have no problems with the people coming here trying to improve their lives. I have HUGE problems with government programs designed to use and abuse them ( and me ) and to "artificially" make my work life unnecessarily more challenging and difficult. How does the individual fight the "system"? I truly believe that the IT industry in the US has gone totally insane ( with government assistance ).

The chickens will and are coming home to roost. Beware the "Law of Unintended Consequences".

The stealth war on the US middle class continues. Are YOU the next war casualty?

Thanks!

I dont mean to be rude or anything, just brutally honest. I dont think western IT workers (myself included) did anything "wrong". Its just the way the market works, the world changed. The supply of cheap IT workers grew. The only wrong thing we did was ending up working in a highly competetive industry. Its a tragedy when someone looses their job to cheaper labor. But that personal tragedy is just one side of it. The rest of society benifits greatly from productivity increases. I know its hard to accept. You are right we are human beings, but to the free market our labor is just a cost of production. I know it sounds cold, but in its the best of all possible worlds. The price system is the friend that always thells us the truth. It directs us to always do what benifits society the most. If the price of our labor goes down, that means society has enough of whatever we produced for her and that we should direct our effort at producing other things that society is in greater need off. Protectionism and socialism sounds nice, but they are just kind lies. They do not work and people will end up missdirecting their efforts. The price system never lies (in a free market) and it tells us exactly what society needs the most.

Its like a family living on a deserted island. The family needs fire wood, food, sheleter etc to live. It first sends out the childeren to gather wood for a fire. Thats what is needed most urgently, it has the highest price, because they are freezing. The childeren gather firewood until the family has enough for a fire, the price of wood lowers. That means its time to stop gathering wood and instead do whatever has the highest price at the moment. Maybe helping the parents to gather food is more urgent, at this point it would be foolish to continue gathering wood because its urgency and price has dropped. And so it goes.. A society is much like that family. The price sytem tells people what is needed most urgently, it tells us what our efforts should be directed at, and when to redirect our efforts. If the price of IT workers is in free fall it means its time to do something else, society does not need more IT products. You are probably right. Maybe I am the next casuality. I have some vague plans to change career somewhere down the line.

The cost of producing an IT worker, is as far as i can tell the cost of graduating from a IT univercity in India. I think the wages are probably going to keep shrinking to reflect this with or without protective barriers.

Cheers

 

[DriftWood]

when will you knuckleheads come to the realization that no borders = no nations. Nations should be free to compete amongst each other with products, and within themselves for labor. It has always been such for as long as nations have existed. Your an-cap utopia would mean the plain and simple nonexistance of the USA, poof, gone. All that would remain is worldwide capitalistic fiefdoms.

You simply have not thought this through to its natural and inevitable conclusion.

Yes, the free market knows nothing and cares nothing about political or national borders. As far as im conserned that is a good thing. It does not mean that nations would no longer exist. Citizens usually get privileges that immigration workers dont.

In the end it does not really matter if the US lets in productive low cost workers or not. Eigher you get them to play for your team or they will play for the other.

If US does not let in low cost high skill workers US will not be able to compete with other nations and the value of its currency and wealth will fall until its labour is cheap enough to be able to compete again. That would mean a nig destruction of wealth.

If US lets in low cost high skill workers the wages of these industries will probably fall. However the productivity increase will lower prices for consumers who will get extra purchasing power. A productive industry will also able to compete with other nations. Eventually the currency will rize to reflect this. This would means a big growth in wealth.

Protectionism is short sited and it has always failed in the past (The great depression was caused by the protectionist Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act). But then again you can not force anyone to do whats in their own interest. Only the future will tell wich road US chooses. Free market or protectionism.

Cheers

 

[DriftWood]

when will you knuckleheads come to the realization that no borders = no nations. Nations should be free to compete amongst each other with products, and within themselves for labor. It has always been such for as long as nations have existed. Your an-cap utopia would mean the plain and simple nonexistance of the USA, poof, gone. All that would remain is worldwide capitalistic fiefdoms.

You simply have not thought this through to its natural and inevitable conclusion.

Yes, the free market knows nothing and cares nothing about political or national borders. As far as im conserned that is a good thing. It does not mean that nations would no longer exist. Citizens usually get privileges that immigration workers dont.

In the end it does not really matter if the US lets in productive low cost workers or not. Eigher you get them to play for your team or they will play for the other.

If US does not let in low cost high skill workers US will not be able to compete with other nations and the value of its currency and wealth will fall until its labour is cheap enough to be able to compete again. That would mean a nig destruction of wealth.

If US lets in low cost high skill workers the wages of these industries will probably fall. However the productivity increase will lower prices for consumers who will get extra purchasing power. A productive industry will also able to compete with other nations. Eventually the currency will rize to reflect this. This would means a big growth in wealth.

Protectionism is short sited and it has always failed in the past (The great depression was caused by the protectionist Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act). But then again you can not force anyone to do whats in their own interest. Only the future will tell wich road US chooses. Free market or protectionism.

Cheers

 

[Truth Warrior]

I dont mean to be rude or anything, just brutally honest. I dont think western IT workers (myself included) did anything "wrong". Its just the way the market works, the world changed. The supply of cheap IT workers grew. The only wrong thing we did was ending up working in a highly competetive industry. Its a tragedy when someone looses their job to cheaper labor. But that personal tragedy is just one side of it. The rest of society benifits greatly from productivity increases. I know its hard to accept. You are right we are human beings, but to the free market our labor is just a cost of production. I know it sounds cold, but in its the best of all possible worlds. The price system is the friend that always thells us the truth. It directs us to always do what benifits society the most. If the price of our labor goes down, that means society has enough of whatever we produced for her and that we should direct our effort at producing other things that society is in greater need off. Protectionism and socialism sounds nice, but they are just kind lies. They do not work and people will end up missdirecting their efforts. The price system never lies (in a free market) and it tells us exactly what society needs the most.

Its like a family living on a deserted island. The family needs fire wood, food, sheleter etc to live. It first sends out the childeren to gather wood for a fire. Thats what is needed most urgently, it has the highest price, because they are freezing. The childeren gather firewood until the family has enough for a fire, the price of wood lowers. That means its time to stop gathering wood and instead do whatever has the highest price at the moment. Maybe helping the parents to gather food is more urgent, at this point it would be foolish to continue gathering wood because its urgency and price has dropped. And so it goes.. A society is much like that family. The price sytem tells people what is needed most urgently, it tells us what our efforts should be directed at, and when to redirect our efforts. If the price of IT workers is in free fall it means its time to do something else, society does not need more IT products. You are probably right. Maybe I am the next casuality. I have some vague plans to change career somewhere down the line.

The cost of producing an IT worker, is as far as i can tell the cost of graduating from a IT univercity in India. I think the wages are probably going to keep shrinking to reflect this with or without protective barriers.

Cheers

Yep, when NAFTA was implemented when I was younger and employed, that was pretty much my blasé attitude too, upon hearing all of the blue-collar job loss horror stories. Just go out and do something else. Do what? The viewpoint does tend to change drastically when the situations become up close and personal.

We aren't really talking "free market" here now, are we? "State" capitalism ( corporatism ) combined ("mixed economy") with "state" socialism ( collectivist "Big Brother" ) results ultimately in just a Frankenstein monstrosity and economic tragedy and nightmare just begging to happen and collapse. Legalized "globalization" ( so called ) is merely a convenient "manufactured" lame excuse AND fiction. The libertarian "free market" is no where even beyond the far horizon, that I can tell.

I had alternate plans too, back when I could afford them. Life is what happens to you, while you were planning for something else. Now, I'd gladly accept the prevailing "market pay rate", if I could even get an interview.

BTW, did you just miss this ( posted above )?
Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage.
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

I highly recommend a thorough and comprehensive reading of it.

Good luck, hang in there. Big wheel keeps on turning.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Yes that video "Free To Choose" is great. Thanks apc3161 for the link. It even mentions the topic about barriers on competition and adapting to changes in the price system. It is easy to forget that what made US so wealthy and successful was the free market and letting foreigners in to compete for work, without govt regulations and restrictions. Nothing has changed, freedom still works. Its the only way to a more wealthy society.
http://www.ideachannel.tv/

Cheers

Yeah, but why does Friedman compromise so much? He never challenges public education, he just says, "we need to be able to choose." Then he makes private schools look elitist.

 

[DriftWood]

Yep, when NAFTA was implemented when I was younger and employed, that was pretty much my blasé attitude too, upon hearing all of the blue-collar job loss horror stories. Just go out and do something else. Do what? The viewpoint does tend to change drastically when the situations become up close and personal.

We aren't really talking "free market" here now, are we? "State" capitalism ( corporatism ) combined ("mixed economy") with "state" socialism ( collectivist "Big Brother" ) results ultimately in just a Frankenstein monstrosity and economic tragedy and nightmare just begging to happen and collapse. Legalized "globalization" ( so called ) is merely a convenient "manufactured" lame excuse AND fiction. The libertarian "free market" is no where even beyond the far horizon, that I can tell.

I had alternate plans too, back when I could afford them. Life is what happens to you, while you were planning for something else. Now, I'd gladly accept the prevailing "market pay rate", if I could even get an interview.

BTW, did you just miss this ( posted above )?
Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage.
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

I highly recommend a thorough and comprehensive reading of it.

Good luck, hang in there. Big wheel keeps on turning.

I agree, the US system is not a pure free market, not even close. However limiting the working visas for foreigners is a knee jerk reaction that would make the system even less free. Globalism and free trade agreements are a good thing (even though i might loose my job or take a pay cut as a result). I'm sorry but i cant stop ranting about this. Nothing good comes from protectionism, even if it seems like a good idea in the short term. For example India protected (maybe they still do) their hand weaving textile industry by regulations and by subsidizing it with tax money. They protected the industry so that jobs would not be lost to more efficient machines. Generations later and people are still working long hours hand weaving textiles even though machines could do it better. These peoples efforts is wasted on nothing, they just as well might have one person working a machine and then pay the ten people that loose their jobs to do dig dirt all day. The Indian protectionist policy to reward unproductive labor and punish productive labor has kept India as poor as ever. I know the low cost IT labor from India is not the same as low cost textile machines. But the principle remains the same.

On another note, I hope you get an interview. Surely there must be jobs available if the price is right? (ie. if you are willing to taking a big pay cut)

Cheers

 

[angelatc]

. Eighter that adapt to lower wages or switch careers. Barriers will not work. Just imagine what would have happened during the industrial revolution to a country that tried to protect its high cost labor, by not buying more efficient machines. Yupp, that would have been the end of the industry in that country.

You mean, if we would have had protectionist measures in place then the American industrial revolution might not have happened?

You, uh, might want to do a little more research on that before you repeat that statement.

"All four presidents on Mount Rushmore were protectionists."

http://www.buchanan.org/pa-94-1203.html

 

[angelatc]

The stealth war on the US middle class continues. Are YOU the next war casualty?

Thanks!

He's not really a casualty if he surrenders, is he?

 

[DriftWood]

You mean, if we would have had protectionist measures in place then the American industrial revolution might not have happened?

You, uh, might want to do a little more research on that before you repeat that statement.

"All four presidents on Mount Rushmore were protectionists."

http://www.buchanan.org/pa-94-1203.html

No, I mean if some pre-industrial countries tried to protect their domestic labor from the "evil" unemployment creating industrial revolution and the machines (ever heard of the Luddites). Obviously any such protectionist measures could not work, because of competition from industrial countries abroad.

Take the Indian textile industry example above.. Or take the farming industry. Before the industrial revolution lots of people where employed working farms. Then the tractor came along and took peoples jobs away. People where surely pissed. Imagine what would have happened if the US made tractors illegal to save these peoples jobs. Then the domestic non tractor farmers could not compete against the foreign tractor farmers. Such a industry could not survive. The govt might try to "fix" this by subsidized the domestic none-tractor farmers with tax money. Or the govt might put tariffs on foreign farm products to make foreign grain as expensive as domestic. This would allow the domestic none tractor farmers to compete with foreign tractor farmers. But this scheme would only work for a while, as the whole domestic economy would suffer because tax payers or consumers would be forced to pay for the difference in grain prices.

Cheers

 

[angelatc]

You're still avoiding that fact that the greatest advances our country made were accomplished during periods of protectionism.

Guessing you once again didn't click on the link:

The greatest era of industrial expansion in America, where our workers saw the greatest rise in their standard of living was from 1860-1914, when America protected her industries and jobs behind a tariff wall. During that half century, U.S. exports rose 700 percent, while imports rose only 500 percent! By 1914, U.S. workers were earning 50 percent more that Brits, and more than twice what Germans and Frenchmen made.

No nation has ever risen to pre-eminence through free trade. Britain before 1848, America and Germany from 1865 to 1914, Japan from 1950 on, all practiced protectionism.

Now, the indices of national decline are all around us: endless huge trade deficits, falling wages, urban and social decay. But that decline will not be reversed until Americans cease to think of themselves as global citizens, with global duties, and start thinking again of their own country.

.

 

[DriftWood]

He's not really a casualty if he surrenders, is he?

Protectionism, anti-free trade and barriers against the free flow of labor. I'm surprised such ideas are popular in a Ron Paul forum.

I hope you understand that Ron Paul is completely free market and against any protectionism. Ron Paul is for immigrant labor (he voted for increases in H1B visas), as i understand it he is only anti illegal-immigration because they get into the social benefits system.

Cheers

 

[angelatc]

Warren Buffet paid 16.7% in TAXES 2007

Average American earning $60K pays: 33%

BTW - I suspect that Buffet still paid about 2 million dollars more than taxes than I did, and he'll use pretty much NONE of the services that the government furnishes.

Stop already with the tax-the-rich crap.