H1B Visas... We should stop them immediately!

[Bradley in DC]

You're crazy

Dr. Paul was explicit on this issue in the video when he spoke to the Google employees: if a company wants to hire someone and that someone wants to work at that company (at the mutually agreed terms), the government has no right interfering. Freedom of association. This stance in no way affects the government's right to determine naturalization policies.

There should be no limit on H1B visas. Quotas are for socialists.

 

[Nefertiti]

It's visas like this that are partially behind my and my husband's decision to move back to Egypt after he becomes a US citizen. He is a foreign trained doctor and has to go through the same exams and process that American doctors have to go through in order to get a medical residency here, which is required for any doctor to practice here.

Now, that itself isn't an issue. However, there are a limited number of residencies available, but it is greater than the number of American graduates, who are almost guaranteed a spot, so there are a good number of opportunities for foreign trained doctors. However, foreign trained permanent residents and citizens (he is a pr and has applied for citizenship) are forced to compete with doctors in other countries who are non-residents and non-citizens for those extra spots that don't go to graduates of American medical schools. Those overseas doctors, if offered a residency, are given H1-B and J-1 visas to come here and through loopholes in the law can stay. There are huge numbers of these doctors applying every year, so even if a US citizen doctor trained overseas passes all the exams, he still only has a 50-50 chance of getting a residency.

Now my husband spent 7 years training as a doctor and is licensed to practice back in his country. He will soon be a US citizen, but there is no guarantee and even a great chance of him being able to put his hard earned medical degree to use in this country, to a great extent because of visas being handed out to people when there are already many qualified foreign-trained doctors here who have already become permanent residents and citizens through other routes. It's like a game of Russian Roulette.

So we have decided to leave. He can go back to his country and do a master's and PhD in a specialty at a cost of about $75 a year in tuition. While he won't make a US physician salary, he can make a good living, and work in the field he has been trained in.

We also figure with a PhD and documented research experience, he might be able to come back to the US later and get a high level research position. At this point he has found it impossible to get one even a low level research job-all the research labs around here seem to prefer Chinese doctors that they sponsor for visas-again the same situation as the residencies. Never mind that these doctors hardly can speak a word of English and my husband's medical education was entirely in English. If you want a medical research job and you are a foreign doctor-you better be Chinese, just like if you want to be a gardener in Los Angeles, you need to be Mexican.

It's rather sad that the US is willing to give someone like my husband permanent residency and then US citizenship, yet it would rather bring others in who aren't citizens to do jobs that he is qualified to do. It's not just that the immigration system is unfair to native born Americans, it also is harmful to immigrants as well.

 

[rodent]

Ron paul voted yes 9 years ago when there was a massive shortage of HIGHTECH workers... but now, there are so many unemployeed HIGHTECH workers/Engineers/ETC...

I think hording the hightech workers around the world is doubly counter-productive:

1 - H1B Visas takes away any foreign assets to their respective countries workforce

2 - H1B Visas take away jobs from American Educated workers

3 - H1B Visas are just a PLOY by CORPORATE America to:

a. Hire workers at lower WAGES compared to Americans Workers
b. HOLD H1B WORKERS HOSTAGE to working more hours
c. Stay in AMERICA or they can notify INS/ICE to initiate deportation procedures
d. Industrial Relations IR/HR depts to control H1B workers because of NO US Civil rights (FOREIGNERS)

Ron Paul's previous record on H1Bs...

Voted YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers.
Vote to pass a bill to increase the number of temporary visas granted to highly skilled workers from 65,000 to 115,000 by the year 2000.
Reference: Bill introduced by Smith, R-TX.; Bill HR 3736 ; vote number 1998-460 on Sep 24, 1998

Skilled legal immigration is not really a problem. Engineering and software development has gotten to the point where it's more cost effective to just relocate and set up design centers off shore. If you make the cost of engineering too prohibitive in the US, they'll simply move all the design centers over seas.

You're not going to beat this problem by getting rid of H1B. Foreign engineering and manufacturing has more or less caught up with America. The US has no real technological edge or monopoly on talent, so there's nothing to prevent the entrepreneurial from using skilled labor elsewhere.

Unskilled, illegal immigration is another story. They're a complete and total drain.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Fyi...

Microsoft was an example. Again we can find articles, research papers etc stating both sides

Also, hiring a legal immigrant comes at a cost. Throw in application fees, lawyer fees, delays, etc and you do not get a "cheap" worker. Also, one needs to submit to the immigration service proof of salary etc, and this has to be comparable to state averages.

Again, we are debating something that is an offshoot of the main problem. America has benefited immensely by having open doors, and we should continue that. Putting up barriers, preventing hard working people from coming here is only going to hurt us in the long run.

Companies usually make the employee pickup most of the migrant costs. On the Salary side... High tech Systems Engineers in SILICON VALLEY: US native employee: $100K-$120K Foreign labor: $60K-90K First hand experience with colleages and HR practices. Where the lower salaries are advantagous is in STARTUPS companies... they don't have the capital, like a US public corporations.

 

[curiousobserver]

I am an american tech worker and I support allowing skilled people to work in the country unhindered.

They generally speak good english, are good citizens, and are the kind of people most likely to start businesses.

It's silly to invite people here as PhD students and then kick them out once they are educated.

They then just go and hire all the other foreign skilled workers we kept out, and undercut american businesses.

People complain about foreign workers, then turn around and complain about outsourcing.

The problem is, you can't just shoot these foreigners. They are going to find tech work somewhere, often at lower wages, and they are going to compete with american tech workers one way or the other.

If more workers really caused mass unemployment, then the US would be a nation of unemployed, as our population has doubled many times over.

The reality is these foreign tech workers become customers too, so unemployment is not increased. This is "Say's Law", the fact that supply creates it's own demand.

Agree. Makes a lot of sense. Ron Paul would have similar thoughts I presume.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Unlimited H1b Visa

Skilled legal immigration is not really a problem. Engineering and software development has gotten to the point where it's more cost effective to just relocate and set up design centers off shore. If you make the cost of engineering too prohibitive in the US, they'll simply move all the design centers over seas.

You're not going to beat this problem by getting rid of H1B. Foreign engineering and manufacturing has more or less caught up with America. The US has no real technological edge or monopoly on talent, so there's nothing to prevent the entrepreneurial from using skilled labor elsewhere.

Unskilled, illegal immigration is another story. They're a complete and total drain.

Depends on the Industry... Most source code on the software side are against US EXPORT LAWS, hardware has it's limit too, developing out of the US. Then, there's all the CORPORATE ESPIONAGE STUFF... PATENTS, COPYRIGHTS, etc

That's why Bill GATES and others testified in front of congress requesting UNLIMITED H1B VISAS. see link

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=3251

 

[Brian4Liberty]

It's visas like this that are partially behind my and my husband's decision to move back to Egypt after he becomes a US citizen.
...
However, foreign trained permanent residents and citizens (he is a pr and has applied for citizenship) are forced to compete with doctors in other countries who are non-residents and non-citizens for those extra spots that don't go to graduates of American medical schools. Those overseas doctors, if offered a residency, are given H1-B and J-1 visas to come here and through loopholes in the law can stay. There are huge numbers of these doctors applying every year, so even if a US citizen doctor trained overseas passes all the exams, he still only has a 50-50 chance of getting a residency.
...
He will soon be a US citizen, but there is no guarantee and even a great chance of him being able to put his hard earned medical degree to use in this country, to a great extent because of visas being handed out to people when there are already many qualified foreign-trained doctors here who have already become permanent residents and citizens through other routes.
...
At this point he has found it impossible to get one even a low level research job-all the research labs around here seem to prefer Chinese doctors that they sponsor for visas-again the same situation as the residencies. Never mind that these doctors hardly can speak a word of English and my husband's medical education was entirely in English. If you want a medical research job and you are a foreign doctor-you better be Chinese, just like if you want to be a gardener in Los Angeles, you need to be Mexican.

It's rather sad that the US is willing to give someone like my husband permanent residency and then US citizenship, yet it would rather bring others in who aren't citizens to do jobs that he is qualified to do. It's not just that the immigration system is unfair to native born Americans, it also is harmful to immigrants as well.

Thank you for that post Nefertiti. It is good to hear more about what happens in the real world. If people don't experience these things first hand, they tend to disbeleive and disregard them. Just human nature...

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Companies usually make the employee pickup most of the migrant costs. On the Salary side... High tech Systems Engineers in SILICON VALLEY: US native employee: $100K-$120K Foreign labor: $60K-90K First hand experience with colleages and HR practices. Where the lower salaries are advantagous is in STARTUPS companies... they don't have the capital, like a US public corporations.

Thanks for more reality. I confirm that, and would add that "US native" salaries have gone down from your stats...

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Dr. Paul was explicit on this issue in the video when he spoke to the Google employees: if a company wants to hire someone and that someone wants to work at that company (at the mutually agreed terms), the government has no right interfering. Freedom of association. This stance in no way affects the government's right to determine naturalization policies.

There should be no limit on H1B visas. Quotas are for socialists.

Dr. Paul has also said that it depends on the current economy. Our economy isn’t at its best, and Dr. Paul has many examples. Maybe not a good time for more immigration.

And this is a pet peeve of mine, so let me push this one more time...

<rant on>

If you don't want any limits on immigration, you are pushing the Corporate Globalist agenda, whether you agree with a One World Government or not.

As for the affects of insourcing foreign labor and/or outsourcing the jobs, first farm workers were affected, then garment workers, steel workers, auto workers, customer service reps, nurses, IT workers, doctors...who is next? Does it only matter when it affects you personally? Maybe. And maybe nothing happens until the majority of people are affected, and the unemployed and under-employed are not making the bills.

And immigration affects more than salaries. How many more people can the world handle? Massive immigration is just an accelerated version of a population explosion. Sure, just like the Federal Reserve, corporate American and government love the pyramid schemes they have created. If they create a bigger population, there are more people to tax, and they might keep their pyramid of cards standing for one more generation. Who really believes that an economy based on an endless and exponential human population growth pyramid can be sustained?

There comes a time when environmentalism isn’t about tree hugging. It’s about the capacity of the planet. Population increases affect many things: traffic, energy, housing, pollution, water, food. Our quality of life is going down the tubes. It is very related to our flawed fiscal and monetary polices, but it is also about over-population. And that is driven in the US by uncontrolled immigration.

We can all be for more liberty, more rights, sound monetary policy, limited government, less taxes, and less regulations, but we need to use common sense.

And it's ironic that you mention Socialism (or Communism, in terms of economic quotas). I am finding that the “anarcho/Rothbardian/libertarian” purists remind me of Communists, in that they are advocating a Utopian system that has never been proven in the real world, and doesn’t take reality into account. It’s fertile ground for less than noble leaders (government or corporate) to take full advantage.

Power corrupts, and it doesn’t matter if that power is concentrated in government or corporations. Big corporations are just like governments. If our Founding Fathers were concerned about the abuse of power during the founding of our small country, what would they think about multi-national, multi-billion dollar companies with hundreds of thousands employees. Employees that they fully control, who leave all rights at the door, and that can be eliminated at will. Bill Gates may not want any limits on immigration in and out of the US, but he certainly has a dictator’s control over who comes in and out of his Empire.

<rant off>

 

[shoms_w]

Again, I can provide examples to the contrary. I do not have the data to conclusively state a position, but I am not too worried about legal immigration. In the long run you want smart educated hardworking people in your country, and we should not close our doors. I am not gonna lose any sleep on this

Companies usually make the employee pickup most of the migrant costs. On the Salary side... High tech Systems Engineers in SILICON VALLEY: US native employee: $100K-$120K Foreign labor: $60K-90K First hand experience with colleages and HR practices. Where the lower salaries are advantagous is in STARTUPS companies... they don't have the capital, like a US public corporations.

 

[Minuteman2008]

Increase H1B visas, drastically increase legal immigration quotas, simplify the immigration process, stop country-based favoritism.

We're already bringing in legally around 2 million immigrants per year (though only about half will become citizens). The planet adds 80 million people per year, mostly in developing countries. At what point does the importation of people affect our quality of life? If "comprehensive" immigration reform had passed the first time around (before the elections), the Heritage Foundation found that it would have brought in around 120 million people in two decades. The scale of that is breathtaking.

Maybe we need workers, but people keep talking about drastically increasing immigration without considering the consequences long term. We're headed for a population of between 460 and 500 million by 2050 if we don't increase our immigration rate. Obviously we'll be there much sooner if we "drastically increase legal immigration." I for one think this is insanity. At some point common sense has to trump ideology.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069&pr=goog-sl

 

[stm]

Dr. Paul has also said that it depends on the current economy. Our economy isn’t at its best, and Dr. Paul has many examples. Maybe not a good time for more immigration.

And this is a pet peeve of mine, so let me push this one more time...

<rant on>

If you don't want any limits on immigration, you are pushing the Corporate Globalist agenda, whether you agree with a One World Government or not.

As for the affects of insourcing foreign labor and/or outsourcing the jobs, first farm workers were affected, then garment workers, steel workers, auto workers, customer service reps, nurses, IT workers, doctors...who is next? Does it only matter when it affects you personally? Maybe. And maybe nothing happens until the majority of people are affected, and the unemployed and under-employed are not making the bills.

And immigration affects more than salaries. How many more people can the world handle? Massive immigration is just an accelerated version of a population explosion. Sure, just like the Federal Reserve, corporate American and government love the pyramid schemes they have created. If they create a bigger population, there are more people to tax, and they might keep their pyramid of cards standing for one more generation. Who really believes that an economy based on an endless and exponential human population growth pyramid can be sustained?

There comes a time when environmentalism isn’t about tree hugging. It’s about the capacity of the planet. Population increases affect many things: traffic, energy, housing, pollution, water, food. Our quality of life is going down the tubes. It is very related to our flawed fiscal and monetary polices, but it is also about over-population. And that is driven in the US by uncontrolled immigration.

We can all be for more liberty, more rights, sound monetary policy, limited government, less taxes, and less regulations, but we need to use common sense.

And it's ironic that you mention Socialism (or Communism, in terms of economic quotas). I am finding that the “anarcho/Rothbardian/libertarian” purists remind me of Communists, in that they are advocating a Utopian system that has never been proven in the real world, and doesn’t take reality into account. It’s fertile ground for less than noble leaders (government or corporate) to take full advantage.

Power corrupts, and it doesn’t matter if that power is concentrated in government or corporations. Big corporations are just like governments. If our Founding Fathers were concerned about the abuse of power during the founding of our small country, what would they think about multi-national, multi-billion dollar companies with hundreds of thousands employees. Employees that they fully control, who leave all rights at the door, and that can be eliminated at will. Bill Gates may not want any limits on immigration in and out of the US, but he certainly has a dictator’s control over who comes in and out of his Empire.

<rant off>

*applause*

Personally, I think we should stop pretty much all immigration (be it from Russia, Africa, Sweden, China, or Mexico), as absolutely nothing good can from it.

 

[Duckman]

Ever since the beginning of America, there have been people who have scoffed at immigrants, even though we are nation built on immigrants.

I am a tech worker and I support the idea of H1B although I still think such visas could be improved. H1B brings in highly skilled, educated people. These are just the kind of people America needs.

 

[stm]

Ever since the beginning of America, there have been people who have scoffed at immigrants, even though we are nation built on immigrants.

Early settling/pioneering in America (which is how our country was actually built) =! modern day immigration.

 

[stm]

Ever since the beginning of America, there have been people who have scoffed at immigrants, even though we are nation built on immigrants.

And for good reason, too. Most of the time immigration runs contrary to the interests (of most) of the native population.

This is true even of when the Irish and the Italians first started coming here (both of whom are mostly Catholic, in contrast with the Protestant majority which America has had for most of her history).

I mean, let's say that you have a Muslim country, would anyone ever really try arguing that it would be in the interests of the native population for them to start accepting large amounts of Christian immigrants into their country? Of course not, because the Christians would doubtlessly work in favor of Christian interests, which would obviously NOT be in the interests of the native Muslim population.

How about if they started accepting so many Christian immigrants into their country, that it would only be a matter of time before the Muslim majority became a minority in their own country (which is basically what we're doing in America and Europe today)? Would anyone dare argue that that would be in the interests of the native population?

 

[shoms_w]

I have a honest question here:
Have any of the anti-legal-immigration posters in this thread lost jobs to an immigrant? Or has someone you know lost a job to an immigrant. If yes, what kind of job was it?

Also, do you believe in free markets?

Finally, would you rather have people work here and spend some money here or would you prefer to outsource the jobs? This may seem like a false choice, and please respond with another alternative if you prefer.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I have a honest question here:
Have any of the anti-legal-immigration posters in this thread lost jobs to an immigrant? Or has someone you know lost a job to an immigrant. If yes, what kind of job was it?

Also, do you believe in free markets?

Finally, would you rather have people work here and spend some money here or would you prefer to outsource the jobs? This may seem like a false choice, and please respond with another alternative if you prefer.

And I have question for all of the people who say that they work in Tech (and support visas): what do you do specifically? i.e. Management? Project Management? Operating Systems programming (name your most used programming language)? Embedded systems? Hardware? Firmware? Manufacturing? Production Support (of what)? Tech Support? General programming (again, what specific type and language)?

As for the questions you asked:

1) Laid off and replaced by imported labor? Yes, several times. As have almost all US citizens that I have worked with in my area of expertise. Even workers who were imported labor themselves and later became US citizens, only to be replaced by cheaper, newer imports.

2) Free markets? I believe in Fair and Competitive markets. Trade and friends with all! Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul both believe that "untargeted" tariffs are ok, and so do I. It's better than income tax.

3) Insource or outsource? Bringing labor here means increasing our population, and everything that goes with that: more traffic, higher housing prices, higher energy prices, paving over every open piece of land, etc. Alternatives: why outsource or insource? Just because someone has made a sales pitch? There's a lot of penny-wise, pound foolish decisions made everyday...making war on certain countries and policing the world to stop "terrorists" seems like a good idea on the surface...which is why so many people have supported that.

 

[Eponym_mi]

Based on what I have observed, there is often a HUGE disparity in wages provided to H1B visa holders, despite provisions in the law that state the employer must pay them the prevailing wage.

Having said that, I'm not entirely opposed to the program, but I do think that it is abused by employers and often brings in more employees than really needed just to depress wages. If overall wage growth in a given industry indicates a significant shortage of workers, there might be a case for gradually increasing quotas. But if wages are stagnate or declining, quotas should remain the same or be decreased immediately.

I think big increases in the immigrant population are somewhat disruptive and also contribute to government spending.

 

[kylejack]

Also, do you believe in free markets?

No, they do not.

 

[kahless]

As I recruit in IT I see both sides of this story. I think everyone got it wrong here since I see a shortage or surpluss dependent on region and skill.

We also have the problem with all the hype about H1Bs, Americans are getting out of IT and creating the situation where we have less computer science graduates.