H1B Visas... We should stop them immediately!

[Truth Warrior]

I agree, the US system is not a pure free market, not even close. However limiting the working visas for foreigners is a knee jerk reaction that would make the system even less free. Globalism and free trade agreements are a good thing (even though i might loose my job or take a pay cut as a result). I'm sorry but i cant stop ranting about this. Nothing good comes from protectionism, even if it seems like a good idea in the short term. For example India protected (maybe they still do) their hand weaving textile industry by regulations and by subsidizing it with tax money. They protected the industry so that jobs would not be lost to more efficient machines. Generations later and people are still working long hours hand weaving textiles even though machines could do it better. These peoples efforts is wasted on nothing, they just as well might have one person working a machine and then pay the ten people that loose their jobs to do dig dirt all day. The Indian protectionist policy to reward unproductive labor and punish productive labor has kept India as poor as ever. I know the low cost IT labor from India is not the same as low cost textile machines. But the principle remains the same.

On another note, I hope you get an interview. Surely there must be jobs available if the price is right? (ie. if you are willing to taking a big pay cut)

Cheers

Sure you can stop ranting about protectionism, since it has absolutely NOTHING to do with that. Regardless of what you may have been told. Just good old standard common sense explanations suffice very nicely. Was US IT employment protectionist before the miraculous and wholly beneficial passage of H-1B and L-1 visas? If so, what specific government tariffs were repealed?

I guess that you do not care for or agree with the myth debunking article either.

Sure there are LOTS of jobs, I know, I pursue them and have now for years. My resume just seems to fall into a black hole, never to be seen, heard from or about again. Pay is not even on the table, as an issue, without an interview. Right?

 

[Truth Warrior]

He's not really a casualty if he surrenders, is he?

Nope, just a POW!

Thanks!

 

[angelatc]

Protectionism, anti-free trade and barriers against the free flow of labor. I'm surprised such ideas are popular in a Ron Paul forum.

I hope you understand that Ron Paul is completely free market and against any protectionism. Ron Paul is for immigrant labor (he voted for increases in H1B visas), as i understand it he is only anti illegal-immigration because they get into the social benefits system.

Cheers

If we abolished the welfare state, I would be an open borders person. We're not going to, so I am not.

You can quote theories, but I have history on my side.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

If we abolished the welfare state, I would be an open borders person. We're not going to, so I am not.

You can quote theories, but I have history on my side.

Actually it will be a fine way to bankrupt the welfare state

 

[DriftWood]

You're still avoiding that fact that the greatest advances our country made were accomplished during periods of protectionism.

Guessing you once again didn't click on the link:
.

Yepp, I missed the link last time.

I whole heartedly disagree with Pat Buchanan on that one, and I think Ron Paul would do the same.

"No nation has ever risen to pre-eminence through free trade. Britain before 1848, America and Germany from 1865 to 1914, Japan from 1950 on, all practiced protectionism."

I cant believe I'm reading that. It goes against everything i have learned while studying Ron Paul, libertarianism and Austrian economics, lets just say I am not convinced. I would say that just about every country that has gone with low taxes and free trade has become successful.

Japan was a poor when it was protectionist and isolated, it scrapped its tariffs and went free trade and by the time of WW2 it had become a world power. After the destruction of WW2 it quickly got back on its feet by free trade. (Then in the 90 it started screwing up by imposing all kinds of stupid taxes.)

Hong Kong and Taiwan got to be a success because of free trade. China was poor until it scrapped protectionism and went free trade.

The golden days of the English empire was under free trade.

And the biggest success story of all has been America, with its radical free trade policy.

Socialist countries have always been fans of protectionism and been anti-free trade, and we all know how those countries turned out.

If free trade between countries is bad then why is free trade between the states of America not equally bad. Why not have big tariffs between states, cities and so on?

Also the idea that imports are bad and exports are good is completely foolish. Exports is how you pay for imports. In the long term they always equal out. Having lots of export and no import mean that you are basically giving away your goods for foreign paper money. You have to use the foreign paper money by importing goods to actually get back anything of value.

Cheers

 

[angelatc]

What's your source that Japan dumped protectionism prior to WW2? Japan was a superpower, marching up through China before they decided to attack us.

And IIRC, Japan almost singlehandedly killed our steel industry with their definition of "free trade."

China is protectionist now, and their economy is booming. Go figure.

I know you have lots of theories, but again, the history is on my side. IF we do not protect our interests, nobody else will.

The bottom line is that when executives complain that the U.S. isn't producing enough scientists and engineers, what they really mean is that the U.S. isn't producing enough scientists and engineers happy to work for $7 per hour.

I worked in an industry where there were labor shortages, and guess what? My employer started putting people through school to fill the demand. Instead, we have guidance counselors steering Americans away from tech and science careers because the salary levels are falling to third world levels.

 

[My First Name Is Paul]

1950 Hong Kong was very similar to 1830 United States. Hong Kong now enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world. It is the fastest and longest increase in a nation's standard of living and continues to this day. They also have one of the most free markets in history and have no protectionist policies in place. Yes, protectionism can achieve a certain measure of success, but I find it interesting that arguably most successful economy is also the one with the most freedom.

Truth Warrior, 'Free trade agreements' are not about free trade. NAFTA actually undermines our nation's sovereignty. Are you familiar with MTBE in gasoline? Basically, there is a provision in the agreement which states that if one nation sells a product to another nation, and legislation is passed which hurts the profits of the producing nation, then the producing is owed money to compensate for the lost profits. So when the state of California passed a law banning MTBE in gasoline because it was poisoning well water, the producer of MTBE, a Canadian company, filed to be compensated for its lost profits. There is nothing in the Constitution to make this enforceable and it makes us hostage to foreign corporate interests. Free trade does not require a Stephen King novel size document, but simply low or no tariffs and subsidies.


JosephTheLibertarian, Milton Friedman in his book and videos of Free to Choose was very much in support of private schools. He went into great detail about the U.S. schools systems of the 1800's and how the new public system is just that, new. Prior to the public system we were much better off. He offered the voucher program only as an attempt to change the momentum from the collectivist movement.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Will program for H1-B wages!

 

[Truth Warrior]

Truth Warrior, 'Free trade agreements' are not about free trade. NAFTA actually undermines our nation's sovereignty. Are you familiar with MTBE in gasoline? Basically, there is a provision in the agreement which states that if one nation sells a product to another nation, and legislation is passed which hurts the profits of the producing nation, then the producing is owed money to compensate for the lost profits. So when the state of California passed a law banning MTBE in gasoline because it was poisoning well water, the producer of MTBE, a Canadian company, filed to be compensated for its lost profits. There is nothing in the Constitution to make this enforceable and it makes us hostage to foreign corporate interests. Free trade does not require a Stephen King novel size document, but simply low or no tariffs and subsidies.

Yep, I know lots about "free trade" ( so called ) AKA government badly "managed trade".

I know about the MTBE situation also.

Thanks!

 

[ARealConservative]

http://www.programmersguild.org/

On the first page of this link is an extremely liberal interpretation of rights:

the right to practice in one's chosen profession is a Constitutional liberty [Gibson v. Berryhill, 411 U.S. 564, 571 (1973)] that is violated by visas that force Americans to train their foreign replacements or otherwise result in displacement by foreign workers.

If you are looking for the government to protect you from voluntary association issues, then I recommend looking elsewhere.

 

[angelatc]

1950 Hong Kong was very similar to 1830 United States. Hong Kong now enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world. It is the fastest and longest increase in a nation's standard of living and continues to this day. They also have one of the most free markets in history and have no protectionist policies in place. Yes, protectionism can achieve a certain measure of success, but I find it interesting that arguably most successful economy is also the one with the most freedom..

Or we can continue to look at Japan, who has (I believe) the second largest economy in the world, an unemployment rate of around 3% and yet allows virtually nobody in.

Even better, we can indeed look at Hong Kong, one of the most densely crowded places on earth. with about 18,000 people per square mile. I do not want to live in a box under a box on top of a box, which is what Hong Kong apartments are like.

Let's not to mention their utter disregard for international copyright laws, and the bilions of dollars that adds to their economy.

 

[Truth Warrior]

On the first page of this link is an extremely liberal interpretation of rights:

the right to practice in one's chosen profession is a Constitutional liberty [Gibson v. Berryhill, 411 U.S. 564, 571 (1973)] that is violated by visas that force Americans to train their foreign replacements or otherwise result in displacement by foreign workers.

If you are looking for the government to protect you from voluntary association issues, then I recommend looking elsewhere.[/quote]

Nope, as I clearly stated previously that home page was selected only for the quoted problems statement. I really seriously doubt that there are many ( or any ) here, more libertarian than I am. Not looking for a government handout, only asking to quit killing us unemployed and underemployed US citizen IT folks. We're not manufacturing buggy whips after all.

 

[My First Name Is Paul]

Or we can continue to look at Japan, who has (I believe) the second largest economy in the world, an unemployment rate of around 3% and yet allows virtually nobody in.

Even better, we can indeed look at Hong Kong, one of the most densely crowded places on earth. with about 18,000 people per square mile. I do not want to live in a box under a box on top of a box, which is what Hong Kong apartments are like.

Let's not to mention their utter disregard for international copyright laws, and the bilions of dollars that adds to their economy.

China has a GDP that is 75% larger than Japan's, but still about half of the U.S. GDP, but it's not the size that matters.

Many in Hong Kong are rich enough to own houses in other nations - that's what their hard work gets them. The population density in Japan is about 10 times higher than it is here in the U.S. This may be more an indication in the differences between western and and eastern cultures than the differences between different economies.

There can be no such thing as international law without an international empire.

 

[ARealConservative]

If you are looking for the government to protect you from voluntary association issues, then I recommend looking elsewhere.

Nope, as I clearly stated previously that home page was selected only for the quoted problems statement. I really seriously doubt that there are many ( or any ) here, more libertarian than I am. Not looking for a government handout, only asking to quit killing us unemployed and underemployed US citizen IT folks. We're not manufacturing buggy whips after all.

It speaks volumes that you would even link to such a site IMO.

As an I/T worker, I don't need government to protect my job. I protect it my staying current on technology while being able to provide better customer service to American Business' via superior communication skills.

By proving that I am worth more then foreign workers, I maintain a higher level of earning power.

It's nice that you value your perceived libertarian rank, but as a non-libertarian, I feel even I abide my the principles of non-aggression more then you do because you seem to be casting them aside rather quickly in this case.

You claim we are being killed - by whom? Apparently you perceive your job in I/T trumps the rights of the employer to hire whoever he wishes to hire but I do not.

 

[Truth Warrior]

It speaks volumes that you would even link to such a site IMO.
No it does not. You're merely grasping as bogus straws. Ah, the good old guilt by association logical fallacy.
As an I/T worker, I don't need government to protect my job. I protect it my staying current on technology while being able to provide better customer service to American Business' via superior communication skills.
As do I.
By proving that I am worth more then foreign workers, I maintain a higher level of earning power.
As do I.
It's nice that you value your perceived libertarian rank, but as a non-libertarian, I feel even I abide my the principles of non-aggression more then you do because you seem to be casting them aside rather quickly in this case.
La la land.
You claim we are being killed - by whom? Apparently you perceive your job in I/T trumps the rights of the employer to hire whoever he wishes to hire but I do not.
Yep, he wants the ambitious 25 year olds, to be quickly used up and thrown away, for the next replacement batch.

So I take it that you perceive the H1-B/L-1 visas government programs as a supreme triumphant validation of real conservative principles, smaller government, free market, less regulation, etc., etc. Correct?

To establish and prove my point, I double dog dare you to reply to my quoted original detailed Programmers Guild post. ( That would be thread post #59, for you convenience. )

Deal?

 

[apc3161]

People here seem to forget that wage is just another price. It is set by demand and supply. You can try to keep a price higher than it should (if left to the free market) by getting your govt to make regulations to keep the supply down. This is what caps on working visas are about. You are getting protection from competition. You might say that your wage would go down to an unfair level if everyone with your skills was allowed to get into the country and compete for the jobs. There is no such thing as fair wage. If you cant sell your skills for a certain price then you are overpricing your skills. The only fair thing is for people with the same skills to compete. The market will then set the price / the wage at an the correct price for your skills. Regulations to keep wages high, is just as foolish as price fixing to keep a commodity high. Society as a whole suffers because consumers have to pay a higher price for a product that is worth less. The consumers will have that much less money to buy other thing. The consumer and the whole society will be poorer as a result. Regulations like these destroy wealth. Free market creates wealth. Switch perspectives and see yourself as a consumer instead of a producer for a minute. The only reason we produce is so that we can consume. Consumption is the end goal. We can consume more and work less by letting the free market bring prices of products down. This is how wealth is created.

Thats my last post about this matter..

Bingo, spot on.

 

[apc3161]

What's your source that Japan dumped protectionism prior to WW2? Japan was a superpower, marching up through China before they decided to attack us.

And IIRC, Japan almost singlehandedly killed our steel industry with their definition of "free trade."

China is protectionist now, and their economy is booming. Go figure.

I know you have lots of theories, but again, the history is on my side. IF we do not protect our interests, nobody else will.

The bottom line is that when executives complain that the U.S. isn't producing enough scientists and engineers, what they really mean is that the U.S. isn't producing enough scientists and engineers happy to work for $7 per hour.

I worked in an industry where there were labor shortages, and guess what? My employer started putting people through school to fill the demand. Instead, we have guidance counselors steering Americans away from tech and science careers because the salary levels are falling to third world levels.

Go look up something called the Meiji Restoration. It occurred in Japan during the 19th century. It was basically the period where they decided to embrace change and free trade and then flourished afterwards as a result.

If you want the ultimate example of what protectionism can bring, I recommend you study Chinese history, specifically the 16th through 19th centuries. They thought they were "so much better" than the rest of the world, and that they could gain nothing by being in contact with them. Thus they closed off their borders and ports and looked inward. As a result, the world left them behind.

Also, the height of the British Empire came in the middle of the 19th century when the Britains decided to unilaterally remove all export and import tariffs. Go look it up.

 

[Kalifornia]

Go look up something called the Meiji Restoration. It occurred in Japan during the 19th century. It was basically the period where they decided to embrace change and free trade and then flourished afterwards as a result.

If you want the ultimate example of what protectionism can bring, I recommend you study Chinese history, specifically the 16th through 19th centuries. They thought they were "so much better" than the rest of the world, and that they could gain nothing by being in contact with them. Thus they closed off their borders and ports and looked inward. As a result, the world left them behind.

Also, the height of the British Empire came in the middle of the 19th century when the Britains decided to unilaterally remove all export and import tariffs. Go look it up.

You, sir, are insane. Japan has NEVER engaged in free trade, EVER. They have ALWAYS had a managed economy. They cant spin twice and sit down without the involvement of some government bureaucrat helping or assisting them. Their healthcare is managed, their means of production is managed, their banking is managed, and their IMPORTS ARE MANAGED, as well as their immigration, and in fact, the entire Meiji revolution was a period MANAGED by the Imperial government! What they do today is not all that different from what they did then, except now they are better at taking advantage of US free trade policies while restricting their own market to imports.

The watershed that the Meiji period represents is the decision to embrace western technology and knowledge, and to modernize their systems. They went out and picked what they thought to be the best of each particular type of system that the west had to offer. Thats not free trade, or free labor markets.

Im done with this conversation. It makes me want to punch a random anarcho capitalist in the neck.

Ya know, your rhetoric is exactly the kind of crap that the CFR/Nafta/SPP crowd is using to sell us on a one world government. IM not fuggin buying. Borders matter, economic stability matters, nations matter, cultures matter. The minute you get what you want, we wont be a nation anymore, and the only liberty allowed will be those which make the corporations profit. Profit is good, but its not everything.

 

[Truth Warrior]

The NWO is and will come about through governments, don't blame the anarchists for it. They've been talking about this forever. Your beef should rightly be with the statists. It's their baby and wet dream.

 

[DriftWood]

You, sir, are insane. Japan has NEVER engaged in free trade, EVER. They have ALWAYS had a managed economy. They cant spin twice and sit down without the involvement of some government bureaucrat helping or assisting them. Their healthcare is managed, their means of production is managed, their banking is managed, and their IMPORTS ARE MANAGED, as well as their immigration, and in fact, the entire Meiji revolution was a period MANAGED by the Imperial government! What they do today is not all that different from what they did then, except now they are better at taking advantage of US free trade policies while restricting their own market to imports.

The watershed that the Meiji period represents is the decision to embrace western technology and knowledge, and to modernize their systems. They went out and picked what they thought to be the best of each particular type of system that the west had to offer. Thats not free trade, or free labor markets.

Im done with this conversation. It makes me want to punch a random anarcho capitalist in the neck.

Ya know, your rhetoric is exactly the kind of crap that the CFR/Nafta/SPP crowd is using to sell us on a one world government. IM not fuggin buying. Borders matter, economic stability matters, nations matter, cultures matter. The minute you get what you want, we wont be a nation anymore, and the only liberty allowed will be those which make the corporations profit. Profit is good, but its not everything.

Free trade is common sense. It makes sense you just have to look at it without getting your emotions all involved. No world govt is needed for global free trade. Its like RP says trade with other countries but don't make any entangling alliances.

The reason why untaxed trade between individuals of different nations is a good thing, is the same reason that untaxed trade between individuals of the same country is a good thing. The benefit of trade is due to division of labor. You as an individual can not be good at making every product you need, but you can be really good at making one specific product. So it makes more sense for you to make the only thing that you do better than anyone else and then trade it for all the things that other people do really well. You could try to make everything you need on your own but the products you made would end up being expensive and of low quality because you can not be an expert on everything. Its much more effective to specialize in few things and let others specialize in other things. That way everyone wins.

Trade between individuals of different countries is no different. Its a win win situation. If Argentina is good at making coffee cheaper than anyone else can then it no sense for a country like Sweden that is not good at making coffee to also try and make coffee. Its much better that Sweden to trade the heavy duty trucks that it can make cheaper than any other countries for the coffee. That way both parties win. Argentina gets the cheapest and best trucks and Sweden get the best and cheapest coffee.

Its a wonderful trade and everyone is happy until, say, a Swedish politician come along and screws it up by imposing tariffs/taxes on coffee from Argentina. He does this so that the price off Argentinian coffee will go up so much that it costs more than the domestic Swedish coffee. Now the Swedish people have to buy expensive coffee no matter what. They have that much less money for other things. They grow poorer. Now they have to make more trucks just to get the same amount of coffee as before. Even the Argentinians are worse off, because they no longer sell coffee to Sweden they no longer have as much money to buy trucks as before. They grow poorer. Its a loose loose situation.

You see, its all logical and common sense. No single country can be an expert at making everything nor should it try to. It is much better to do a few things better and cheaper than others can and then trade that for the other stuff you need. That way everyone wins by getting the cheapest possible goods. Protectionism and taxes just make things more expensive to the domestic consumer. Now where is the sense in that? Dont forget that we only produce so that we can consume. Consumption is the goal here, low prices of the products we consume is what we want. Production is just the means to this end.

Cheers