government-free marriage

I want to see an actual link to a real story where someone gay or otherwise with a durable power of attorney was denied visitation rights by any hospital. I do not believe such a story exists. I've never seen such a story. I've talked to law professors who support gay marriage and they don't have any such story. I believe this to be a lie and straw man and a scare tactic made up by the gay marriage movement.

I am in no way defending Axis (his or her's opposition to free trade was enough to make my blood boil), but i'm sure he/she was just using that as an example, not that i'm supporting laws on discrimination as I believe 100% in freedom of association.
 
I don't think that any hospital would realistically refuse visitation rights to a spouse. My point is simply that these laws essentially mandate that only certain people are allowed to see the patients and others aren't. It would be better to allow each individual hospital to decide whether visitation rights should extend to gay couples, friends of the patient, distant relatives, etc.

If these laws mandated anything else besides immediate next-of-kin, I could agree with you.

Legally recognized marriage does confer, for legal purposes, a familial relationship superior to all others after all.
 
No, because I said that I would give them a refund check for the amount of money that they paid into the system. They wouldn't be cheated out of any money. Medicare is a more complex government program and couldn't be ended right away. With that program I would probably just phase it out over time for younger people like myself.

Still wouldn't work.

People would spend the money right away, perhaps to pay off the house for example, still leaving them out in the cold after retirement and/or disability.
 
I want to see an actual link to a real story where someone gay or otherwise with a durable power of attorney was denied visitation rights by any hospital. I do not believe such a story exists. I've never seen such a story. I've talked to law professors who support gay marriage and they don't have any such story. I believe this to be a lie and straw man and a scare tactic made up by the gay marriage movement.

Nice try, the durable power of attorney completely eliminates any chance of finding an example, as it is a legally binding contract that must be honored by third parties.
 
I am in no way defending Axis (his or her's opposition to free trade was enough to make my blood boil), but i'm sure he/she was just using that as an example, not that i'm supporting laws on discrimination as I believe 100% in freedom of association.

I am NOT opposed to Free Trade. I am opposed to the conservative idea of "Free Trade".

Then again I wouldn't expect someone like to to understand the subtleties.
 
LOL. I can just imagine a gay bouncer at a gay bar saying to someone "You look too straight so I'm not going to let you in." :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure most gay bars assume that anyone coming in the door is by definition gay or bi or "bi-curious" or whatever and as long as they meet the dress code they get it. I could be wrong though. And I won't be testing that theory out. :p

When I was a regular bar goer, I had no problems going into gay bars with friends who frequented such establishments for more than drinking, or getting into the bar for that matter.

Got plenty of free drinks too, by way of apology for hitting on me when I let the guy know I was straight. :)

I would much rather get hit on by a gay man than an ugly, smelly, fat woman. The latter just refuse to give up, even when you flash your wedding ring and tell them flat out "No, go away".
 
I am in no way defending Axis (his or her's opposition to free trade was enough to make my blood boil), but i'm sure he/she was just using that as an example, not that i'm supporting laws on discrimination as I believe 100% in freedom of association.

Oh sure he's using as an example. That's my point. It's a false example. A gay couple can protect itself just as easily as a straight couple. A durable power of attorney is no more difficult to obtain than a marriage license.
 
Nice try, the durable power of attorney completely eliminates any chance of finding an example, as it is a legally binding contract that must be honored by third parties.

There is no try, there is only do. And any person who wants the protection of a durable power of attorney can get one just as easily as he/she can get a marriage license. This whole "I can't visit my sick loved one in the hospital unless the state changes the definition of marriage" is totally bogus. The dirty little secret that statist marriage advocates don't want you to know is that almost everything that can be accomplished through a marriage license can be accomplished through contract. The parts that cannot be accomplished through contract (taxes and health benefits) are due to the federal government being too big in the first place. (There shouldn't be an income tax and any tax benefit from health benefits should go directly to the individual and not to the employer).
 
The gay-mariage issue is a losing issue for the GOP unless they redefine the argument from pro/con gay marriage to whether government should be invovled in the marriage licensing business in the first place. By granting government the right to license marriage as it does hunting and driver's licenses, one ultimately gives government the same power to take those licenses away. Anything government gives it can take away. I checked out the Government-Free Marriage movement and am in agreement with all the issues they espouse, primary among them... solve the many problems associated with marriage by getting government out... Government-Free Marriage, an idea who's time has come. http://www.governmentfreemarriage.com
 
Legally recognized marriage does confer, for legal purposes, a familial relationship superior to all others after all.

it shouldn't though; it should be up to each individual institution to decide, for themselves, what is allowed (or not) on their own property; to suggest otherwise means you believe in some form of slavery or statism (which, from what you've stated earlier, I suspect you do).
 
Still wouldn't work.

People would spend the money right away, perhaps to pay off the house for example, still leaving them out in the cold after retirement and/or disability.

That would be their own fault. Conservatives and libertarians are supposed to believe in personal responsibility. The government should not force people to save for their own retirement. People should make that choice on their own. And also, SS and Medicare are both blatantly unconstitutional.
 
That would be their own fault. Conservatives and libertarians are supposed to believe in personal responsibility. The government should not force people to save for their own retirement. People should make that choice on their own. And also, SS and Medicare are both blatantly unconstitutional.

why are they blatantly unconstitutional?
 
why are they blatantly unconstitutional?

The 10th amendment states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

That means that the federal government can't do anything that isn't authorized by the Constitution. There is no authorization in the Constitution for Social Security and Medicare.
 
The 10th amendment states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

That means that the federal government can't do anything that isn't authorized by the Constitution. There is no authorization in the Constitution for Social Security and Medicare.

You can't claim it is unconstitutional if the constitutional supreme court declares it is constitutional.


On May 24, 1937 the Supreme Court handed down its decision in the three cases. Justice Cardozo wrote the majority opinion in the first two cases and he announced them on what was, coincidentally, his 67th birthday. (See sidebar on Justice Cardozo.)

Mirroring the situation in Congress when the legislation was considered, the old-age insurance program met relatively little disagreement. The Court ruled 7 to 2 in support of the old-age insurance program. And even though two Justices disagreed with the decision, no separate dissents were authored. The unemployment compensation provisions, by contrast, were hotly disputed within the Court, just as they had been the focus of most of the debate in Congress. The Court ruled 5 to 4 in support of the unemployment compensation provisions, and three of the Justices felt compelled to author separate dissents in the Steward Machine case and one Justice did so in the Southern Coal & Coke case.

Justice Cardozo wrote the opinions in Helvering vs. Davis and Steward Machine. After giving the 1788 dictionary the consideration he thought it deserved, he made clear the Court's view on the scope of the government's spending authority: "There have been statesman in our history who have stood for other views. . .We will not resurrect the contest. It is now settled by decision. The conception of the spending power advocated by Hamilton . . .has prevailed over that of Madison. . ." Arguing that the unemployment compensation program provided for the general welfare, Cardozo observed: ". . .there is need to remind ourselves of facts as to the problem of unemployment that are now matters of common knowledge. . .the roll of the unemployed, itself formidable enough, was only a partial roll of the destitute or needy. The fact developed quickly that the states were unable to give the requisite relief. The problem had become national in area and dimensions. There was need of help from the nation if the people were not to starve. It is too late today for the argument to be heard with tolerance that in a crisis so extreme the use of the moneys of the nation to relieve the unemployed and their dependents is a use for any purpose [other] than the promotion of the general welfare."

And finally, he extended the reasoning to the old-age insurance program: "The purge of nation-wide calamity that began in 1929 has taught us many lessons. . . Spreading from state to state, unemployment is an ill not particular but general, which may be checked, if Congress so determines, by the resources of the nation. . . But the ill is all one or at least not greatly different whether men are thrown out of work because there is no longer work to do or because the disabilities of age make them incapable of doing it. Rescue becomes necessary irrespective of the cause. The hope behind this statute is to save men and women from the rigors of the poor house as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them when journey's end is near."

With these cases decided, Justice Stone could then dispose of the third case in short order. "Together the two statutes now before us embody a cooperative legislative effort by state and national governments, for carrying out a public purpose common to both, which neither could fully achieve without the cooperation of the other. The Constitution does not prohibit such cooperation."

http://www.ssa.gov/history/court.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/attarian7.html

Are you claiming the constitution is inadequate because you do not agree with the supreme court?
 
Since marriage is a contract, its not necessarily correct to view it as something which anyone has a "right" to because it inevitably involves the participation of someone else. Because of that, you have left the realm of "rights" and entered the realm of privileges and duties arising from mutual agreement.

The purpose of the site in the OP is not to remove government from adjudicating a dispute of a marriage contract, as they would any other contract, but to remove it from the role of granting permission to marry in the form of licensing.
 
You can't claim it is unconstitutional if the constitutional supreme court declares it is constitutional.

Oh sure you can. The supreme court gets stuff wrong all the time. And the only reason the supreme court gave in to FDR because he bullied them with his threat of packing the court.

See: http://reason.com/archives/2009/01/22/a-switch-in-time-saves-nine

The Dread Scott ruling was unconstitutional. So was Plessy v. Ferguson. By declaring that a SCt. ruling is unconstitutional we set the stage that someone growing up today who may later end up on the court will have the balls to say "That 19XX supreme court ruling was wrong and today we are reversing it."

Are you claiming the constitution is inadequate because you do not agree with the supreme court?

Disagreeing with an opinion of the supreme court is not the same as saying the constitution is inadequate. It is saying that 9 men and women got their decision wrong. Their wrong decision can be overturned by a later court ruling or by a constitutional amendment, or it can be rendered ineffective through nullification.
 
There's nothing in the Constitution that says or even implies that the Supreme Court was to have the final say on all determinations of Constitutionality. That is a presumption of law we have Marbury vs. Madison to thank for, but it was an incorrect ruling in that regard. Upon review of the documented understanding in the States' ratifying conventions, it is not tenable to assert that if they (the States) believed they were ratifying into existence a central government and giving it's agents sole discretion on deciding the extent of their own power that they would have done so under that understanding.
 
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