Dave Smith and Alex Nowrasteh Debate Immigration

[Anti Federalist]

 

[Swordsmyth]

And they don't want the best and brightest anyway, they want the cheapest and most servile.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

​

And they don't want the best and brightest anyway, they want the cheapest and most servile.

Depends upon who the "they" is you are talking about.

What are the motivations of immigration lobbyist Alex Nowrasteh? Well, he is paid to push for massive immigration. So he does it for money, and is likely a true believer in a global govt ruled by his associates. His globalist paymasters want cheap, controllable labor and the breaking down of the US to make way for their New World Order ruled by a Plutocracy.

If you are talking about the people doing the hiring, often they simply want to import more of their own. More people from their family, their village, their college, their religion, their ethnic group.

 

[PAF]

Depends upon who the "they" is you are talking about.

What are the motivations of immigration lobbyist Alex Nowrasteh? Well, he is paid to push for massive immigration. So he does it for money, and is likely a true believer in a global govt ruled by his associates. His globalist paymasters want cheap, controllable labor and the breaking down of the US to make way for their New World Order ruled by a Plutocracy.

If you are talking about the people doing the hiring, often they simply want to import more of their own. More people from their family, their village, their college, their religion, their ethnic group.

Source please.

Meantime:

____

by Alex Nowrasteh
03/22/25

Non-citizens include illegal immigrants, legal immigrants on green cards and other migrants here on work permits or other visas. The call for $880 billion in cuts is not specific to components of Medicaid or other welfare programs; the number is merely a target that the Energy and Commerce Committee needs to hit. The committee could meet much of this goal and assuage Hawley’s worry by cutting all non-citizens from Medicaid and other welfare and entitlement programs.

Non-citizens don’t use much Medicaid, but they shouldn’t be using any. Our recent research published at the Cato Institute found that non-citizens used about $2,100 per year in Medicaid on average, over 16 percent below the more than $2,500 consumed by native-born Americans annually.

In 2022, non-citizens received an estimated $50.3 billion of Medicaid benefits — about $35.6 billion in federal money and the rest from state coffers. Ideally, no non-citizens should receive any Medicaid from state or federal funding, but states do have that discretion with their own state funds. Our back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that kicking all non-citizens off Medicaid would save about $355.9 billion over ten years.

Still, the Senate could go further by restricting all non-citizen access to other federal welfare programs. We estimate that non-citizens consumed about $59.8 billion in other welfare benefits in 2022 — far below what native-born Americans do per capita, but a substantial sum nonetheless. Removing non-citizens from all welfare and entitlement programs, not just Medicaid, would save about $1 trillion over the next decade.

To remove all non-citizens from welfare rolls, the committee wouldn’t need to start from scratch. They could simply adopt Rep. Glenn Grothman’s (R-Wis.) Safeguarding Benefits for Americans Act from the last Congress.

Immigrants generally pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits, partly because they consume less welfare than native-born Americans. Kicking all non-citizens off welfare would boost those fiscal benefits even higher by reducing the outlays.

Immigrants also have positive economic effects beyond government budgets. The U.S. population would start declining in the mid-2030s without immigration, which would have negative economic, demographic and social implications — so their presence staves off that day. The other economic benefits of immigration are enormous, from a larger economy to higher wages and world-class firms started by immigrants like Jensen Huang, Elon Musk and many others.

The House budget blueprint supports pouring an extraordinary $200 billion into border security and interior immigration enforcement over the next decade. Such a move is fiscally irresponsible and will have little impact on border security as the number of border encounters has declined precipitously over the last year. Instead of being distracted by a phantom border problem, Congress should build a wall around the welfare state instead of around the country.

Loading…

thehill.com

____


^ Bold is mine ^. Sounds like something I can definitely get on board with. Keeping them "illegal" while coming here to work would be the ideal libertarian solution. You know, because I really don't like government "solutions" - at all. Even if you and the above posters do.

 

[CaptUSA]

PAF keeps on about rates... Crime rates, Medicaid rates, welfare rates...

The problem isn't the percentages. It's that those things are additive. So, you get more crime, more medicaid spending, more welfare spending, albeit at a lower rate than the native population.

And even if you look at those "rates", they have been increasing year over year. Why??? Because the people you attract through artificial government-subsidized immigration are NOT the same types of people who are attracted through NATURAL immigration.

I'm with you that we need to turn it all off. But we need to do that FIRST! Then, and only then, can we talk about relaxing immigration barriers. Doing so in reverse order is retarded.

 

[PAF]

PAF keeps on about rates... Crime rates, Medicaid rates, welfare rates...

The problem isn't the percentages. It's that those things are additive. So, you get more crime, more medicaid spending, more welfare spending, albeit at a lower rate than the native population.
And even if you look at those "rates", they have been increasing year over year. Why??? Because the people you attract through artificial government-subsidized immigration are NOT the same types of people who are attracted through NATURAL immigration.
I'm with you that we need to turn it all off. But we need to do that FIRST! Then, and only then, can we talk about relaxing immigration barriers. Doing so in reverse order is retarded.

Rand Paul and Mike Johnson were on TV this morning talking about the "big beautiful bill". Mike and you have a very similar philosophy and approach to "solving problems "which continues to "kick the can" as it has been forever. I was reminded how retarded Mike is and why they like him so much. Rand on the other hand essentially said shit or get off of the pot.

Every time we wait and do things as has been done for umpteen decades leads us further into tyranny. Yep, that's retarded too. No, I'm not changing my position on this. You can "claim the win" if you want since "that's what's popular", even though in reality it's a tremendous loss. Smile, you're going to be on candid camera from sea to shining sea, not that you aren't somewhat already.

People. They keep doing the same things over and over again expecting different results. Which is pretty retarded, if you ask me.

 

[Swordsmyth]

PAF keeps on about rates... Crime rates, Medicaid rates, welfare rates...

The problem isn't the percentages. It's that those things are additive. So, you get more crime, more medicaid spending, more welfare spending, albeit at a lower rate than the native population.

And even if you look at those "rates", they have been increasing year over year. Why??? Because the people you attract through artificial government-subsidized immigration are NOT the same types of people who are attracted through NATURAL immigration.

I'm with you that we need to turn it all off. But we need to do that FIRST! Then, and only then, can we talk about relaxing immigration barriers. Doing so in reverse order is retarded.

It's just lies that the rate is lower than the native population anyway.

 

[Swordsmyth]

A False Narrative, Based on Bad Data
As noted above, for decades, open-borders proponents have parroted the same narrative: “Illegal aliens commit less crime than native-born citizens.” However, this claim typically rests on studies that manipulate data in order to support the fictitious “illegal aliens = less crime” narrative.
Why are the majority of studies of illegal alien criminality so flawed? First, as Peter Kirsanow, of National Review notes, “Illegal-immigrant crime calculations conveniently and invariably steal a base by leaving out the millions of crimes committed by illegal immigrants related to procuring fraudulent social security numbers, obtaining false drivers’ licenses, using fraudulent green cards, and improperly accessing public benefits.”[SUP][2][/SUP] That error is then compounded when researchers intentionally elect to leave out broad classes of crimes for example, drug offenses — as the Cato Institute frequently does.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Secondly, most federal, state and local government agencies do not collect data on the rates at which illegal aliens are convicted of crimes. Most likely, this is due to political correctness, and a desire to keep the truth about the number of crimes committed by illegal aliens from coming to light. Peter Kirsanow is one of the few who has commented openly on this tendency. He states, “Unfortunately, almost every public official not named Jeff Sessions guards against disclosure of illegal-immigrant crime data more tenaciously than disclosure of nuclear launch codes.”[SUP][4][/SUP] Regardless of why this information is not collected, the end result is that there are a limited number of sources for obtaining data on crimes committed by known illegal aliens.
Finally, most researchers tend to ignore the few established sources that provide data on criminal acts by known illegal aliens. They point to all types of alleged, and typically baseless, “flaws” in this data, ranging from “limited sample size” to an inability to determine whether illegal aliens are being counted more than once. In actuality, however, the only real flaw, from the perspective of mainstream research organizations, is that examinations of data on criminal activity by known illegal aliens tend to establish that those who enter the U.S. in violation of our immigration laws also commit other crimes at a higher rate.
This should not be surprising to anyone. The simple fact that illegal aliens violated American immigration laws – and must continuously violate other federal, state and local laws in order to mask their ongoing illegal presence in this country – demonstrates a blatant lack of respect for the rule of law.
[h=2]Getting A Realistic Portrait Of Illegal Alien Crime[/h] [h=3]How FAIR Researched This Issue[/h] This report examines the rate at which illegal aliens are incarcerated in state and local correc- tional facilities after being convicted of a crime. To determine that rate:

• We analyzed incarceration data from the federal government’s State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) and compared it to the public records of state and local prisons.[SUP][5][/SUP]
• Via SCAAP, state entities apply to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to obtain reimbursement for the costs associated with incarcerating illegal aliens.
• Accordingly, the rate at which a state seeks reimbursement provides a good snapshot of the number of illegal aliens in its criminal justice system.
• In order to estimate how many illegal aliens are currently incarcerated in a given state, we relied on data from the most recent SCAAP report published by the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA).[SUP][6][/SUP]
• Our other calculations are based on commonly available state corrections/criminal justice reports and other non-SCAPP federal data.

[h=3]The Data We Used[/h] This report focuses on Arizona, California, Florida, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Texas and Washington because:

• The majority of the illegal population in the United States lives within these states.
• Individually, they all have significant, dense illegal alien populations.
• They consistently report to SCAAP, and therefore have the most reliable and complete data.
• The majority of the population in these states lives within a SCAAP-reporting district.
• There is little to suggest that our conclusions would be significantly different were we somehow able to obtain valid data for those jurisdictions that either do not participate in SCAAP or that do not produce enough SCAAP data to reliably estimate their total numbers of incarcerated illegal aliens.

Taken together, these ten reporting states represent a statistically significant sample. Although the calculations in this report are specific to those states, they include 65 percent of the total illegal alien population in the U.S. Therefore, even if the majority of unlawfully-present foreigners in the states not covered were never arrested, the rate at which illegal aliens are incarcerated would not change appreciably.
This report does not cover illegal aliens who have been convicted of federal criminal charges and are serving time in a Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) facility. Therefore, it does not include those illegal aliens incarcerated for committing immigration-related crimes such as illegal re-entry, welfare fraud, or identity theft.
[h=2]Summary of Findings[/h] [h=3]Key Findings in Brief[/h]

• FAIR found that in all SCAAP-reporting states along the Southern Border, and in SCAAP-reporting interior states that are preferred destinations for unlawful migrants, illegal aliens are incarcerated at a much higher rate than citizens and lawfully-present aliens.[SUP][7][/SUP]
• SCAAP data indicate that illegal aliens are typically at least three times as likely to be incarcerated than citizens and lawfully-present aliens.
• Since the SCAAP program only includes those illegal aliens who have, at some point, been convicted of a crime, the only reasonable conclusion is that illegal aliens must commit crimes at a higher rate than citizens or lawfully-present aliens in order to be incarcerated at such high rates.
• These findings stand in stark contrast to the narrative pushed by the open-borders lobby that illegal aliens are less likely to commit crimes compared to citizens or lawfully-present aliens.

[h=2]Detailed Analysis of Findings in Three States[/h] In Arizona, a state where drug trafficking across the long and sparsely-protected border is widespread, nearly 3 percent of all illegal aliens end up finding themselves incarcerated in a state or local facility at some point during the year. In comparison, roughly 0.7 percent of citizens and lawfully-present immigrants in Arizona are incarcerated – meaning illegal aliens are more than 4 times as likely to be incarcerated.
New Jersey is a state with relatively low incarceration rates, but illegal aliens are 5.5 times more likely than U.S. citizens or lawfully-present aliens to be incarcerated.
Even in Texas – a state with an allegedly “lower” number of illegal aliens committing crimes, unlawfully-present aliens remain 60 percent more likely to be incarcerated than citizens and lawfully-present immigrants. The slightly lower incarceration rate compared to other states is likely due to the increased federal law enforcement presence at and near the state’s border with Mexico, as well as a deterrent effect that stems from Texas’ willingness to prosecute illegal aliens and turn them over to federal law enforcement. As discussed in greater detail below, in recent years, the Lone Star State has dealt with more than 273,000 crimes committed by 175,000 illegal aliens.
As noted above, these alarming numbers do not include those illegal aliens currently serving sentences on federal criminal charges, as reported by the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP).[SUP][8][/SUP] Offenses committed by illegal aliens that may result in a federal prison sentence include crimes ranging from document fraud to alien smuggling, drug trafficking and murder.
[h=2]The Anecdotal Evidence Lines Up with the Statistical Evidence[/h] Most Americans do not wade into complex statistical data on a regular basis. But anyone who follows the evening news can see that there appears to be an unacceptably large number of illegal aliens committing serious crimes in the United States.
Listed below are several examples of particularly heinous crimes committed by illegal aliens over the past five years:

• In Tennessee, an illegal alien from Guatemala was sentenced to 50 years in prison for molesting a 6-year-old girl. Edwin Velasquez Curuchiche snuck into the girl’s home twice in 2015 and recorded himself molesting her in her sleep. Curuchiche was originally apprehended in 2013 for illegally entering the United States. Due to “catch-and-release” policies at the time, he was released and subsequently never appeared for his immigration hearing.[SUP][9][/SUP]
• On July 1, 2015, Jose Ines Garcia Zarate shot and killed Kate Steinle in San Francisco.[SUP][10][/SUP] Zarate had been sentenced to prison on numerous occasions prior to killing Steinle, but San Francisco’s “sanctuary city” status allowed him to be released back onto the streets despite ICE requesting that he be held until they could apprehend and ultimately deport him.[SUP][11][/SUP]
• In 2016 in Kansas, an illegal alien from Mexico murdered a mother and kidnapped her 6-day-old baby. Yesenia Sesmas had recently suffered from a miscarriage and faked pregnancy for the following months.[SUP][12][/SUP] Sesmas, who was living in Texas at the time, traveled to Wichita when she found out a friend she previously worked with just had a baby. She shot her friend in the head and kidnapped the child.[SUP][13][/SUP]
• In 2017, several MS-13 members “stabbed [a man] more than 100 times, decapitated him, and then cut out his heart” in Maryland. One of the alleged attackers, Miguel Angel Lopez-Abrego, is an illegal alien who was later caught in North Carolina.[SUP][14][/SUP]
• Yet another despicable act of violence occurred in Maryland as well when MS-13 members savagely beat a 15-year-old girl with a bat 28 times for “not doing a good job as an MS-13 prostitute.” Miguel Angel Ayala-Rivera allegedly ordered the beating and also made large sums of money from prostituting other underage girls. Ayala-Rivera is an illegal alien.[SUP][15][/SUP]
• In Iowa in August 2018, an illegal alien from Mexico was charged with killing Mollie Tibetts. She had gone missing after going for a jog the month prior in a case that also received national attention.[SUP][16][/SUP] Cristhian Bahena Rivera admitted to murdering Tibbetts after stalking her while she was jogging.[SUP][17][/SUP]

The open-borders lobby maintains that sensational cases simply create a mistaken impression that illegal aliens are committing crimes at a higher rate than their lawfully-present peers or U.S. citizens. But the anecdotal evidence appears to line up with the statistical evidence provided by SCAAP.
These vignettes received the most media coverage, but they represent only a small fraction of the thousands of crimes committed by illegal aliens across the United States every year.
In Texas alone between June 2011 and July 2018, more than 175,000 illegal aliens were booked into state and local jails. Within this time period, they were charged with more than 273,000 criminal offenses. These crimes included 505 homicide charges, 30,408 assaults, 5,396 burglaries, 34,555 drug offenses, and 365 kidnapping charges.[SUP][18][/SUP] By simply doing the math based on this data alone, then comparing it with the number of illegal aliens residing in the state of Texas, it becomes clear that illegal aliens are incarcerated at a higher rate than U.S. citizens or lawfully-present aliens.

More at: https://www.fairus.org/issue/illega...aliens-commit-crime-much-higher-rate-citizens


And then there's the fact that the big blue urban centers lie about their crime rates and the race and immigration status of offenders.

 

[Occam's Banana]

Evaluating SoHo Forum Immigration Debate Between Dave Smith/Alex Nowrasteh, AND Malice Talks Anarchy
{Robert Murphy | 27 May 2025}

The Bob Murphy Show: Episode 412

Adam Haman returns, this time for a 2fer. First he and Bob discuss the recent SoHo Forum debate on immigration between Dave Smith and Alex Nowrasteh. Then they discuss Michael Malice’s recent appearance on Bret Weinstein’s DarkHorse podcast to talk about egalitarianism and anarchy.

Mentioned in the Episode and Other Links of Interest:

• The YouTube version of this conversation. [see video below - OB]
• The SoHo forum debate [see this post - OB], and the Michael Malice interview [see this post - OB].
• BMS ep 194 on Bob’s views on immigration under anarchy.
• Dave Smith on the Human Action podcast laying out his views on immigration vis-a-vis libertarian theory. [see this thread - OB]
• The HamanNature substack.
• Help support the Bob Murphy Show.

[Audio (mp3): https://episodes.captivate.fm/episode/2500fd74-1ada-4771-be7e-dbbd53239239.mp3]

 

[PAF]

Evaluating SoHo Forum Immigration Debate Between Dave Smith/Alex Nowrasteh, AND Malice Talks Anarchy
{Robert Murphy | 27 May 2025}

The Bob Murphy Show: Episode 412

Adam Haman returns, this time for a 2fer. First he and Bob discuss the recent SoHo Forum debate on immigration between Dave Smith and Alex Nowrasteh. Then they discuss Michael Malice’s recent appearance on Bret Weinstein’s DarkHorse podcast to talk about egalitarianism and anarchy.

Mentioned in the Episode and Other Links of Interest:

• The YouTube version of this conversation. [see video below - OB]
• The SoHo forum debate [see this post - OB], and the Michael Malice interview [see this post - OB].
• BMS ep 194 on Bob’s views on immigration under anarchy.
• Dave Smith on the Human Action podcast laying out his views on immigration vis-a-vis libertarian theory. [see this thread - OB]
• The HamanNature substack.
• Help support the Bob Murphy Show.

[Audio (mp3): https://episodes.captivate.fm/episode/2500fd74-1ada-4771-be7e-dbbd53239239.mp3]

Yes, Dave is "persuasive". Adam and Bob support Dave's view that government has legitimacy/justification in solving this [and any other] problem that it created, the listeners fall for it [and applaud], which is why government [the state] perpetuates [and will continue to do so]. After listening to this, I came to the logical conclusion that Dave, Adam and Bob would actually support reparations.

Another fail [albeit a "win" for left/right government advocates].

So, according Dave, Adam and Bob, "it is what it is" and we should all be accepting of that; i.e. "redefining libertarianism". I also noticed that Bob mentioned that he had some kind of "AI" running during this conversation.

 

[CaptUSA]

"redefining libertarianism".

It seems to me that the only one wanting to narrowly define libertarianism is you.

I was a member of the Libertarian party in the early 90's and I saw the circular firing squad and purity tests you're trying to impose. On issue after issue, there was an atmosphere of "you're-not-a-real-libertarian-unless-you-agree-with-every-position-I-take". Yeah, nothing could be more libertarian than that.

Not only is that stupid, it's also self-defeating. Good luck with that.

 

[Swordsmyth]

It seems to me that the only one wanting to narrowly define libertarianism is you.

I was a member of the Libertarian party in the early 90's and I saw the circular firing squad and purity tests you're trying to impose. On issue after issue, there was an atmosphere of "you're-not-a-real-libertarian-unless-you-agree-with-every-position-I-take". Yeah, nothing could be more libertarian than that.

Not only is that stupid, it's also self-defeating. Good luck with that.

It's almost exactly like what an enemy mole would try to do.

 

[CaptUSA]

It's almost exactly like what an enemy mole would try to do.

NO. It's what people who lack confidence do.

"Follow me, guys!!!" "Oh, you're not following me?! You must be bad!" "You're not a REAL libertarian (according to my own personal definition)!"


But in the circular firing squad that is the LP, it all begins with people's innate assumptions. Do you value first the liberty for the mother or the unborn child? Do you value first the liberty for the criminal or for the victim? Do you value first the liberty for the migrant or the native? And so on and so on.

 

[PAF]

It seems to me that the only one wanting to narrowly define libertarianism is you.

I was a member of the Libertarian party in the early 90's and I saw the circular firing squad and purity tests you're trying to impose. On issue after issue, there was an atmosphere of "you're-not-a-real-libertarian-unless-you-agree-with-every-position-I-take". Yeah, nothing could be more libertarian than that.

Not only is that stupid, it's also self-defeating. Good luck with that.

Try harder. Or don't. :

justification in solving this [and any other] problem that it created, the listeners fall for it [and applaud], which is why government [the state] perpetuates [and will continue to do so].

Another fail [albeit a "win" for left/right government advocates].

 

[acptulsa]

It's almost exactly like what an enemy mole would try to do.

There's only one kind of person who would say that pointing out that the government created the problem the government wants more power and money to solve is enemy action, and that's a big government mole.

Another name for big government mole is "communist agitator", pinko.

Including you, pinko.

 

[Swordsmyth]

There's only one kind of person who would say that pointing out that the government created the problem the government wants more power and money to solve is enemy action, and that's a big government mole.

Another name for big government mole is "communist agitator", pinko.

Including you, pinko.

And that's not what I said, you are lying and projecting, as usual.

 

[acptulsa]

And that's not what I said, you are lying and projecting, as usual.

Projecting what? What am I projecting? You picked up the term from me and use lt like a buzzword, but every time I ask you what it means you duck the question. Too adult a concept for you?

And you never say anything at all. You just accuse everyone and his dog of being some kind of enemy agent, in between being a useful idiot for enemy agents because you're too stupid to know what you're doing.

 

[TheTexan]

If yall don't want us to spend tax money, then just make it legal for us to shoot illegal trespassers.

That would solve the problem real quick

 

[Swordsmyth]

Projecting what? What am I projecting? You picked up the term from me and use lt like a buzzword, but every time I ask you what it means you duck the question. Too adult a concept for you?

And you never say anything at all. You just accuse everyone and his dog of being some kind of enemy agent, in between being a useful idiot for enemy agents because you're too stupid to know what you're doing.

You are the leftist, you think you can hide it by accusing me even though that's laughable.
And you and the other usual suspects do exactly what was discussed in the post I replied to, you create your own narrow definitions of libertarianism (as well as narrowing Ron Paul's movement to libertarians when it was always full of conservative Republicans), and then attempt to use it to drive out everyone else so there is no movement anymore and anyone who is left is just an assistant Democrat.

 

[acptulsa]

Stop vomiting incomprehensible and toxic word salad and tell the world what I'm projecting, moron.