god or no god?

[erowe1]

i don't believe people are forced into Heaven, against their will. is that what you're suggesting?

No. He's saying that the possibility of choosing to sin does not exist for people in Heaven.

And he's right, the case of Heaven provides a good counterexample against the free will argument for the problem of evil.

I would retort with the questions of what he means by "free will" and what he means by saying that people in Heaven, who cannot sin, retain it.

 

[erowe1]

Why atheists should be so obsessed with God is beyond me. In fact, I've never met a religious person as obsessed with God as many professed atheists appear to be. 5 minutes of conversation with many "atheists" will produce more references to God and Jesus than an hour long church sermon

Good point. And they don't seem to notice how much their behavior betrays their own innate religiosity.

Me: Raping children is a sin.

Atheist: No it's not, there's no such thing as sin.

Me: So raping children isn't wrong?

Atheist: It's repugnant to me, but there's no absolute moral law out there that makes it wrong.

Me: Don't you think that the reason it's repugnant to you is because you have an inherent awareness of good and evil?

Atheist: No. It's repugnance to me is just the result of instincts that have evolved as a result of those communities that have empathy being more successful at propagating their genes than those that don't.

Me: So there's no such thing as good and evil at all?

Atheist: No. There's no god with any moral authority over us. So how could there be?

Me: How do you know there's no God?

Atheist: Because, if a god is someone who's all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, then it wouldn't be possible for evil to exist.

Me: Like what evil?

Atheist: Like raping children.

Me: Maybe God's goodness is such that it doen't compel him to prevent those things.

Atheist: Then I want nothing to do with God.

Me: Why?

Atheist: Because his moral law doesn't prohibit something that's repugnant to me.

 

[brandon]

God exists but the personification of God is silly as are attempts to describe God.

 

[WilliamC]

Your god is that which consumes your thoughts, that thing that you make sacrifices for, that which you put before anything or anyone else. We are all servants.

Well said, + rep

 

[erowe1]

God exists but the personification of God is silly as are attempts to describe God.

The claim that God has no personality is an attempt to describe God.

 

[jmdrake]

God allows humans to retain free will in heaven, and there is no evil in heaven (according to Christians). So it seems God *can* choose to create a realm where evil does not exist, but he chooses not to. It's not logically impossible for God to eliminate evil, and at the same time, allow humans to retain their free will.

There's still free will in heaven, but who in their right mind would choose to screw all that up by making a dumb choice after the fact? We have an advantage over Adam and Eve. (Or "Lucy" if you believe differently). They didn't know good and evil. We do. That's why God can trust people who have made an intelligent choice for Him not to sin again. Would I start digging up the streets of gold in heaven? What the hell for?

Edit: Maybe you misunderstood what I said earlier, or maybe I wasn't being specific enough. The only way an all powerful God could eliminate the possibility of evil would be to eliminate the possibility of choosing evil. But once free will beings have made a full, complete, and sealed choice for good, having experienced and rejected evil, there's nothing to worry about.

 

[jmdrake]

Well as I don't believe he/she/it exists then it isn't really, but if he/she/it was then he'she's/it's wrong and I'm right because I say so.

If he/she/it doesn't like it he knows where to find me eh?

But since there's no one out there I really could care less what god may or may not think, but it's more polite to attack him/her/it directly than his supporters unless they are after me specifically.

I'm looking for a point, and honestly I don't see it. Your believing God is "wrong" is in no way bad for Him. Sorry if that seems like I'm de-valuating your opinion.

 

[jmdrake]

No. He's saying that the possibility of choosing to sin does not exist for people in Heaven.

And he's right, the case of Heaven provides a good counterexample against the free will argument for the problem of evil.

I would retort with the questions of what he means by "free will" and what he means by saying that people in Heaven, who cannot sin, retain it.

Free will existed in heaven before sin because Lucifer existed perfect in heaven and chose sin. The final end of sin does not destroy free will. But the beings who make it to heaven, having seen the horrid effects of sin on earth and experiencing the wondrous saving grace of God, would never make that choice. That doesn't mean they don't have other choices to make. God said in heaven we would "Build houses and inhabit them" and "Plant vineyards and eat the fruit." I sincerely doubt in the new heaven and new earth God micromanages house plans.

 

[WilliamC]

I'm looking for a point, and honestly I don't see it. Your believing God is "wrong" is in no way bad for Him. Sorry if that seems like I'm de-valuating your opinion.

It's ok, my opinion about god is no more valid than anyone else.

I'd just do some things differently if I had the power, that's all.

But then again, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so maybe neither me nor god should be entrusted with it eh?

 

[jmdrake]

I largely had in mind the killing and injuring of innocent life and the destruction of property of innocents. If possibly preventing one wrong can justify committing 1, 5, 10, 100 or more other wrongs, then the concept of “wrong” is meaningless. Some people aren’t moral relativists and consider certain acts to always be wrong.

T.E.R. said it best. But here are some Bible verses you should consider.

Romans 8:28 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

2 Timothy 3:12 Those who try to live a godly life because they believe in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Matthew 5:11-12 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

To a true Christian, earthly suffering is not the worst thing possible. And this is where Christianity is, or at least should be, a very empowering religion. The soul of this nation is being killed (our constitutional rights) because we have been conned into fearing those who can destroy the body (the terrorists). Think about that.

 

[jmdrake]

It's ok, my opinion about god is no more valid than anyone else.

I'd just do some things differently if I had the power, that's all.

But then again, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so maybe neither me nor god should be entrusted with it eh?

Another Rush fan? Based on the subject matter I would have thought you'd post "Freewill".

 

[CasualApathy]

There is no god and religious people are retarded.

Freedom of speech, bitches

 

[WilliamC]

There is no god and religious people are retarded.

Freedom of speech, bitches

May I mombo dogface to the bananapatch?

 

[erowe1]

Free will existed in heaven before sin because Lucifer existed perfect in heaven and chose sin. The final end of sin does not destroy free will. But the beings who make it to heaven, having seen the horrid effects of sin on earth and experiencing the wondrous saving grace of God, would never make that choice. That doesn't mean they don't have other choices to make. God said in heaven we would "Build houses and inhabit them" and "Plant vineyards and eat the fruit." I sincerely doubt in the new heaven and new earth God micromanages house plans.

But if it's possible for there to be beings with free will who would never make the choice to sin, then God could have only created beings with free will in the first place who would never make that choice. He chose instead to make creatures who would make that choice. And that choice, ultimately, was his choice. It was not just a choice to create creatures with free will, but positively to create creatures who were going to sin, when he could have created creatures with free will who wouldn't.

 

[CasualApathy]

May I mombo dogface to the bananapatch?

I don't even know what that means

 

[austin944]

Free will existed in heaven before sin because Lucifer existed perfect in heaven and chose sin. The final end of sin does not destroy free will. But the beings who make it to heaven, having seen the horrid effects of sin on earth and experiencing the wondrous saving grace of God, would never make that choice. That doesn't mean they don't have other choices to make. God said in heaven we would "Build houses and inhabit them" and "Plant vineyards and eat the fruit." I sincerely doubt in the new heaven and new earth God micromanages house plans.

What are the requirements for a being to have the capacity to choose sin while in heaven? Did Satan have the capacity to choose sin in heaven because he was "perfect", and humans are imperfect (and therefore are incapable of choosing sin in heaven), or are humans incapable of sinning in heaven because they have experienced sin on earth (and Satan has not -- really?).

Can we agree that the improbability of choosing sin is not equivalent to the logical impossibility of such?

 

[Revolution9]

Okay, thanks for answering!

I believe God is also said to be "all-knowing" (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God is all powerful, and all-knowing, than he/she/it is aware of child rapists and actually has the power to prevent a child from being raped, but chooses not to intervene, on the basis of free-will?

Fair or no?

There was and is the remnants of the ongoing Satanic rebellion occurring. If it is blasphemous you can bet it ain't God perpetrating it.

You can get an idea of what occurred metaphysically
[URL="http://www.revelatorium.com"]http://www.revelatorium.com[/URL]

from the link...

Substance materializations which stem from Nonplus thought are corrupt. They do not have the proper higher Substance vortices present as balance so the Intelligence or Plus factor has no way to expand. The creations are called Endplus creations because their potential for expansion ends at the one and same moment as their creation.

Lucifer had denied the Christ Energy factor and Energy Balancing factor of the Creators, and had used Overplus Nplus charge states to try and set up a Self Serving Endplus Creation in the lower Galactic Underworld dimensions of Christ Michaels's Local Universe in an action now called The Luciferian Self Will Rebellion of the Cosmic Overplus.

In order to effect his plan of an accelerated evolution within the lower frequencies of the third and fourth dimensions, Lucifer and his minions tried to create a stand alone Matter Substance time line condition for consciousnesses outside of normal inter-dimensional practices.

The purpose of their misanthropic creation was to expand Self Will expression for the benefits of self rather than for the proper Free Will expression of love and service to the Creation for the Creators.

Called a 'Service to Self' vibration, the resulting imbalance created a turbulence felt all the way through Christ Michael's Local Universe.

When the harmony of his Command began to deteriorate as a result of the disharmonious Nplus frequencies Lucifer had introduced into the matrixes of the Local Solar Sector under his Command, he tried to access the higher frequencies above him by attempting to bypass Christ Michael whom he considered self-appointed.

When all his bypassing efforts came up empty handed, and the forewarned short circuits against the original blueprints of Creation and of things to come began to become evident, rather than accept responsibility for his mis-creations Lucifer rebuked it all in a fall of pride.

In a miscreant of Reality he declared that the consequences of his effects upon the greater laid plans were not a reality because the notion of greater laid plans were but fabrications used by those higher up to hold sway over those underneath.

More specifically Lucifer disclaimed the hierarchy above him, declaring that all above were self-appointed and that the Universe was itself made. In particular he claimed that Energy ran free in the Even Pool and was free for the taking. His fatal mistake.

The Great Even Pool of Darkness is completely devoid of Energy. Unlike the original Intelligent Breath and Tiny Particles of Substance of the Pool, beyond the scope of consciousnesses, Energy has no existence whatsoever.

Rev9

 

[PierzStyx]

If "God" is claimed to have the following characteristics

1. God is all good (He/she/it always makes the correct moral decision)
2. God is all Powerful (ability to carry out his/her/its will without restriction)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen

Only 2 of the 3 statements above can possibly be true at the same time, therefore that God can't possibly exist.

Argument is faulty for two reasons:

1. It ignores the goodness of free will. It is arguable that the greater rightness is to allow men their free agency to act to either good or evil and allow the consequences. Your argument only works if God is a dictator and forcing all of us to dance like puppets to His will as opposed to a God who allows us to make our own choices.
2. That "bad stuff" like hardships and suffering is, in the long eternal view of things, is evil. If Christianity is indeed correct that one of the main purposes of life is to learn to do good from evil by making choices in our life and facing the consequences, then "bad stuff" is indeed right. Also if they are true that learning to face suffering and find joy and standing the test it represents allows one to change and become better and even Christ-like, then one could also argue that "bad stuff" is good. If enduring "bad stuff" correctly and in a godly manner makes you more like God then it is right.

 

[PierzStyx]

No. He's saying that the possibility of choosing to sin does not exist for people in Heaven.

And he's right, the case of Heaven provides a good counterexample against the free will argument for the problem of evil.

I would retort with the questions of what he means by "free will" and what he means by saying that people in Heaven, who cannot sin, retain it.

Its not that people in Heaven cannot sin, it is that they will not. Their natures have changed so that they no longer desire sin in any degree. While still able to act and sin, they simply don't want to anymore.

 

[PierzStyx]

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." -Moroni 10:3-5, The Book of Mormon

This pretty much encapsulates my views on how to get to know God. If you truly want to know if He is real you devoutly and deeply study the scriptures He has given aka "ponder in your heart" over them, and pray to God in Christ's name asking if He is real and if what you've read is true. I sincerely believe that if you do so with a sincere heart that truly wants an answer, have real intent dedicated to acting on the answer and what it means if God is real, and have trust and faith in Christ to keep His promises to you to answer your prayer, then you will receive an answer. You will feel the Holy Ghost (which according to Galatians 5:22-23 in the New Testament feels like "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" for example. Essentially "good" feelings".) tell you in your heart and mind that it is right and good. And those feelings and thoughts from the Holy Ghost can be trusted to tell you the truth.

That is how it happened to me. I read the scriptures, I prayed and sought a relationship with Him, and He answered back. I felt, and feel, that goodness and joy from Him in my heart, and know in my mind that He exists, that He is real, that He loves me. I know this is true for everyone. It feels right, it feels true, it makes sense. I regularly commune with God, feel the Holy Ghost, and grow spiritually and personally. Its not hard knowledge to gain, it just takes dedication to action. I witness that He is real and that He loves you too.