god or no god?

Ohhhh I see what you're saying. Sacrificing a piece to save another, more important one. Again, this doesn't matter. A theistic God's duty is to serve every person individually, not society as a whole. Frauline Friesel will never be compensated. Her horror was not "well worth the going through". You're saying that in some obscure way, her torture and the death of innocent children prevented something worse elsewhere. If God's doctrine is backstabbing me to save two other people than I don't want to be a part of it, thanks.

She will never be compensated IN THIS LIFE. Remember, this life is not all there is. Thus, we don't know WHY God allows some bad things to happen, but we do know that it is not logically contradictory that going through hardships in life can ultimately be a good thing in the afterlife, since justification in this life is not the ultimate goal. If you accept the premise that God created this world and this life, and you accept that the afterllife is more important, according to God, then there is absolutely no contradiction. God can make bad things happen in this life that ultimately work out for good in the next.
 
How can Christianity proclaim to know more than me about God's purpose? Again I was debating this point on Christianity's view of God. I would be fine having a civilized discussion with a non denominational theist or deist because there are no preconceived notions about what God is or what his motives are

Nobody's claiming to know. We're just claiming it's logically sound and consistent to believe in God.
 
I am not a great speaker/communicator or good at convincing! Hence I am not in marketing :D However, I am a human being with a set of beliefs! I believe in God. One way to look at it is this:

1. If I believe in God and He isn't real when I die, what happens?

2.If I don't believe in God, and He is real when I die, what happens?

I choose to believe God is the God of the Jews, who sent a messiah (Whom I believe to be Jesus Christ) to die for our sins. I love Him, but fail Him often. However, if we could be perfect, why would Christ need to die for us in the first place?

My 2 cents, God bless
 
I am not a great speaker/communicator or good at convincing! Hence I am not in marketing :D However, I am a human being with a set of beliefs! I believe in God. One way to look at it is this:

1. If I believe in God and He isn't real when I die, what happens?

2.If I don't believe in God, and He is real when I die, what happens?

I choose to believe God is the God of the Jews, who sent a messiah (Whom I believe to be Jesus Christ) to die for our sins. I love Him, but fail Him often. However, if we could be perfect, why would Christ need to die for us in the first place?

My 2 cents, God bless
That is I believe Pascal's wager, and it is extremely sound. That is probably the only reason that I may end up believing.
 
No, what i'm asserting is that the basic assumptions of Christianity: Personal God, Perfect, Omnipotent, lead to the conclusion that to fulfill all of those characteristics He must protect equally his people. Let's try not to get too heated, we both love Ron Paul :D.

Listen I completely understand your argument and it is valid, but we have to think of all the hundreds of thousands who died. Again, all i'm saying is that an omnipotent, personal God's would not let horrible things happen to one person in exchange for better things for generations to come. For the record, I am an Agnostic, and very much respect religious people. Let's please not get angry at each other as this is a very controversial topic and we are all united in our love of liberty.
What if prior to mortality that person agreed to it? In fact I would say that Christ is the ultimate example of accepting suffering in mortality for the eventual better of others...greater love hath no man than this that he sacrifice his life for his friends...it is possible that those who suffer for the sake of others, or even seemingly meaninglessly - perhaps that is how they chose to be tested?
 
What if prior to mortality that person agreed to it? In fact I would say that Christ is the ultimate example of accepting suffering in mortality for the eventual better of others...greater love hath no man than this that he sacrifice his life for his friends...it is possible that those who suffer for the sake of others, or even seemingly meaninglessly - perhaps that is how they chose to be tested?
I really have no idea, but it seems plausible. No one can know for sure in this area, it's all speculation. That's why Pascal's wager is so powerful.
 
convince me as to why there is or isnt a god? especially the KJV god and jesus. i am on the fence.

discuss


I can't convince you, nor would I want to. I wouldn't want anyone to be convinced by man that God exists -that way lays peril.

Through the gift of faith I believe there is a God. No man convinced me.

I can quickly explain what I went through to come to this conclusion.

In three words:

I

was

humbled.

Hey, He's God/Perfect Love right? As through one man sin/death entered into our world, and by one man (Jesus) sin/death is defeated.

Who am I to argue with Perfect Love?



And now for my profound comments...:D

Reading through this whole thread, and many, many, like it on these forums, one can get the idea that the believers here were humbled at some point in their lives.

The whole 'shakin' my fist at God' thing is as old as time itself -and to a believer only proves man's natural state -naturally rebellious.

How rebellious against God to act natural...uh, yeah...:rolleyes:


Rebellion is sooooo cool until you figure out that rebelling against what you thought you were rebelling against..

-is doing nothing but proving God's point.
:D





Bunkloco
 
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And considering that you are a being with a life expectancy of < 100 years and lacking the ability to see the future you can't even know the ultimate outcome, let alone make any intelligent choice about what it should be.



Why exactly is that "too bad for Him"? What difference does your acceptance or lack thereof His decisions make?

Well as I don't believe he/she/it exists then it isn't really, but if he/she/it was then he'she's/it's wrong and I'm right because I say so.

If he/she/it doesn't like it he knows where to find me eh?

But since there's no one out there I really could care less what god may or may not think, but it's more polite to attack him/her/it directly than his supporters unless they are after me specifically.
 
Your god is that which consumes your thoughts, that thing that you make sacrifices for, that which you put before anything or anyone else. We are all servants.
 
But the only way an all powerful God could eliminate evil would be to eliminate the possibility of choosing evil.

God allows humans to retain free will in heaven, and there is no evil in heaven (according to Christians). So it seems God *can* choose to create a realm where evil does not exist, but he chooses not to. It's not logically impossible for God to eliminate evil, and at the same time, allow humans to retain their free will.
 
Well, I don't think that things of the spirit can be decided in the head with reason. No one could ever convince me that God wasn't real, but it's not based on logic, but on experience. The most convincing of which is the day I was instantly healed of Lyme disease. It happened after someone prayed for me at church (in the name of Jesus) and then I had an intense experience--like feeling a hand on my back that wasn't there in the natural. And then I went home and went to sleep and woke up with 20x as much energy as I had had since I was sick. I could exercise again. I could pick up my daughter. I could stand more than a few minutes. All this after a weekend of pushing myself beyond my limits--which normally put me in bed for a couple days. But since you don't know me and can't see the difference (one friend knew by the sound of my voice in another room something had happened), that probably won't help you. If you want to believe, ask God to help you. If he does, he's real. :) But if you don't really want to believe, nothing will probably convince you. I have a family member who thinks I'm not healing only doing better. They can't believe me b/c they don't believe healing is possible. I don't take it too personal--it's hard to believe. Yet I've lived it. And healing is not my only experience of God--even when I was sick I experienced his presence and help and even day-to-day in normal living. Don't know if that helps, but wanted to share in case it did.
 
I am not a great speaker/communicator or good at convincing! Hence I am not in marketing :D However, I am a human being with a set of beliefs! I believe in God. One way to look at it is this:

1. If I believe in God and He isn't real when I die, what happens?

2.If I don't believe in God, and He is real when I die, what happens?

I choose to believe God is the God of the Jews, who sent a messiah (Whom I believe to be Jesus Christ) to die for our sins. I love Him, but fail Him often. However, if we could be perfect, why would Christ need to die for us in the first place?

My 2 cents, God bless

So you are saying it's better to just believe and not deal with the consequence of dying and there being a god?

So you live a life of fear. You don't believe anything, you are just looking out for yourself. (religious)

What makes your god better than the THOUSANDS of gods before him? If you were born in Egypt or Iraq, your belief system would be very different and yet you would still claim to be right. Fail.
 
The best excuse for doing bad: producing "good".

The Devil God made them do it.

No, only God would know what actually produced good in that situation, so it's not up to them to decide if it's ok to do something. God tells you what He wants you to do, so that's what you should do, since God is all-knowing.
 
So you are saying it's better to just believe and not deal with the consequence of dying and there being a god?

So you live a life of fear. You don't believe anything, you are just looking out for yourself. (religious)

What makes your god better than the THOUSANDS of gods before him? If you were born in Egypt or Iraq, your belief system would be very different and yet you would still claim to be right. Fail.

No, he could be doing it because he truly wants to know. You are simply baiting him for not holding onto being an atheist in order to shed responsibility for your life. Believe it or not, reillym, you will be responsible whether you think so or not.

There are no gods before the one God. Only one God can exist, logically, and there is much evidence that it is probably the God of the Bible. It's the most authentic piece of literature in human history, so I think it deserves special attention.
 
No, only God would know what actually produced good in that situation, so it's not up to them to decide if it's ok to do something. God tells you what He wants you to do, so that's what you should do, since God is all-knowing.

The word "good" in your sentence has what meaning?
 
So you are saying it's better to just believe and not deal with the consequence of dying and there being a god?

So you live a life of fear. You don't believe anything, you are just looking out for yourself. (religious)

What makes your god better than the THOUSANDS of gods before him? If you were born in Egypt or Iraq, your belief system would be very different and yet you would still claim to be right. Fail.

Your reply sounds very confrontational. Sorry bud, you will not provoke me, I've been there, and done that; I've concluded nothing good of it comes. To peacefully reply, I will say I naturally/truly believe in God... I just mentioned the 2 questions about His existence to "argue why the Original Poster should believe in God." That is just one reason to. If you don't want to believe in God, well, that's your choice, and I wish you the best of luck. I don't live to the standards I believe God wants me to, so I feel disappointed with myself many times, but that doesn't change my mind about my belief in God. :)
 
No, he could be doing it because he truly wants to know. You are simply baiting him for not holding onto being an atheist in order to shed responsibility for your life. Believe it or not, reillym, you will be responsible whether you think so or not.

There are no gods before the one God. Only one God can exist, logically, and there is much evidence that it is probably the God of the Bible. It's the most authentic piece of literature in human history, so I think it deserves special attention.

Thanks for sticking up for me. God bless you !
 
God allows humans to retain free will in heaven, and there is no evil in heaven (according to Christians). So it seems God *can* choose to create a realm where evil does not exist, but he chooses not to. It's not logically impossible for God to eliminate evil, and at the same time, allow humans to retain their free will.

i don't believe people are forced into Heaven, against their will. is that what you're suggesting?
 
OMNIPOTENCE: the ability to accomplish all things in harmony with one's will.

OMNISCIENCE: the ability to see all possible consequences of all possible choices, and the ability to choose wisely.

OMNIBENEVOLENCE: the ability to work things out for the ultimate benefit of all parties, or for the greater good of the whole or most worthy.

The above are the attributes which atheists almost always insist that Christians (in particular) defend, in order to prove the existence of God. Why atheists should be so obsessed with God is beyond me. In fact, I've never met a religious person as obsessed with God as many professed atheists appear to be. 5 minutes of conversation with many "atheists" will produce more references to God and Jesus than an hour long church sermon -- even if those references are simply "GD this" or "JC that." I will not attempt to get into the psyche of atheists; even when I was a fairly well entrenched agnostic, I couldn't wrap my mind around the dogmatism of atheism.

I don't know if the definitions I offered are acceptable to others. My definitions are bound to be flawed, just as I am flawed. Actually, I don't believe that any of us could offer perfect definitions of the above concepts, because they are, by definition, beyond human comprehension. However, because I'm as prone to foolish human hubris as anyone else, I'll take a crack at it:

Omnibenevolence? This seems to be a favorite of those who question the judgment of God. "How could God do this or that?" Of course, what they're really saying is, "If I were God, I'd run things differently" -- which I'm sure is true, just as I'm sure that if you were God, I wouldn't like the universe any better than I do, right now, probably even less. And, of course, I can promise you all that if I were God, you'd be praying just as hard for new management as ever. There's nothing new or exceptional about this; after all, every fry cook at McDonalds thinks he could run the joint better than Ray Crock (an imperfect analogy, I know, but what else would you expect?).

"Enough stalling!" you say? Okay, let's get on with it.

There is a beautiful painting, and I have just destroyed it. Did I sin? If it was your painting, did I sin? If I had your permission, did I sin? If it was my painting, did I sin? If it was your painting, made with my materials, did I sin? If it was your painting, made with my materials, without my permission, was it really your painting? I'm willing to bet that your answers to all the previous questions were not all the same, because context matters. If I construct a bomb big enough to destroy the planet, and detonate it, most would agree that I'm not only a sinner, but have just made Mao, Stalin, and Hitler all look like amateurs. Now, if God were to erase the planet with a word, would He have sinned? Many would agree with me, that God may do as He wills with what is His. After all, if God created the universe and everything in it, from nothing, doesn't that make it and all of us His property? I think that many libertarian atheists are going to run into a big conflict here, by taking the contrary position.

Many atheists argue that if God allows person X to be murdered, then God has essentially murdered person X; while I do not agree with that premise, I do assert that if God were to have killed person X, regardless of person X's perceived innocence, God would not have sinned, by doing so. Is a man who eats a cow a cannibal? Is a man who eats a man a cannibal? Context is everything. We may not understand it, and we may not like it, but property rights must as surely apply to the author of natural rights as to the subjects of them. If there is a Higher Power (and I believe there is), we are His property, like it or not.

Omnipotence? Well, there's always that moronic rock argument to counter this one, right? Not really; after all, I'm perfectly capable of dropping a piano on my own head, but not stupid or suicidal. God's power has limits, if that's how you choose to see it -- the "limits" being His own will. This hardly needs further elaboration, but the fact that God chooses not to do a certain thing in no way indicates He lacks the "power" to do that thing, only the will. Sometimes people construct a foolish or self-destructive straw god, because people are foolish.

Omniscience? Many argue that if God knows everything, then God manipulates everything. That argument has more holes than swiss cheese. Precognition does not equal predetermination (my apologies to Calvinists). I'm sure some of you can think of someone you know so well (a parent, a spouse, a best friend, one of your children) that you know with near perfect certainty how that person will respond to any particular circumstance. Now, imagine you were 7 billion times smarter than you are, and that you had the same intimate knowledge of every person on the planet. Does your new precognitive power mean you are pulling the strings of everyone on the planet? No, no more than you are causing your loved one to respond in the way you have learned he/she will. You could argue that God's infinite intelligence should've prevented Him from creating us, or at least from providing us with a free will, because He must've known the evil we would do to each other, but there is no factual justification for arguing that knowledge of effect equals cause of effect.

Free will? I believe this has already been addressed, but God did not create us as slaves (despite what we've done to one another); if we were unable to commit evil, we would not have free will. The fact that God allows us to commit evil is not an indication that it is His will for us to do so. The fact that God allows us to act in accordance to our own will, instead of forcing us to act in accordance to His is, to me at least, the clearest single indicator that man has no right to force his will onto other men. If God will not, man may not!
 
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