Evangelize me!

[BetterCallSaul]

if HAVING ARMS isn't proof to you of you having arms, then there is no reason that we should believe that you are even capable of rational thought.

 

[erowe1]

Sense impressions. He has ears, for example, that have literally never heard anyone once speak about a time when the sun didn't come up. He has eyes that see it come up and go down and repeat. He has a bio-rhythm that feels and predicts through its own pulsing the sun's behavior.

Things that go up fall down. You see that a million times before you're 4. You learn, "things fall down." Stop playing stupid.

Call the following Claim, A:

Sense impressions are what make an argument a strong one.

Can you provide a strong argument for the validity of Claim A?

You are in a bind here, because if you come up with an argument based on sense impressions, then you beg the question. But if you don't come up with one, then, according to your own criterion, your argument is not a strong one.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

Same stuff that I am saying to Sola-Fide applies to you- if you don't understand how having arms is proof that you have arms, then there is nothing anyone can say to you except code-words that trigger emotional associations of childhood trauma manifested today as mind control.

 

[erowe1]

Same stuff that I am saying to Sola-Fide applies to you- if you don't understand how having arms is proof that you have arms, then there is nothing anyone can say to you except code-words that trigger emotional associations of childhood trauma manifested today as mind control.

I never said anything about having arms not being proof of having arms.

But what do you say to my question about providing a strong argument for Claim A?

Your choices are either to admit that your system is illogical, or to renounce your system by admitting that you must believe something without the support of your senses.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

like what?

 

[BetterCallSaul]

lemme just throw out real quick, yous have some diabolical and hateful preachers, parents, and/or religious leaders to have so many clouds between your thinking and your organs of perception. Straight hateful people.

 

[erowe1]

lemme just throw out real quick, yous have some diabolical and hateful preachers, parents, and/or religious leaders to have so many clouds between your thinking and your organs of perception. Straight hateful people.

I don't have clouds between my thinking and organs of perception. I have no problem with trusting my senses. But that doesn't cause any contradictions for me. The people whose worldviews that undermines are those who think that it's possible to only believe things that they can prove with arguments that rely on their senses.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

Also let's say that we spend the next page debating the validity of believing in anything that you can't sense. Let's say that everyone on earth accepts this- that doesn't answer why this or that particular faith. Why not faith in Mithra or Kronos or Kukulkan or Homer Simpson?

 

[erowe1]

like what?

Like Claim A.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

I don't have clouds between my thinking and organs of perception. I have no problem with trusting my senses. But that doesn't cause any contradictions for me. The people whose worldviews that undermines are those who think that it's possible to only believe things that they can prove with arguments that rely on their senses.

like what? What are we believing that we don't witness with our senses?

 

[otherone]

What makes an argument a strong one?

personal experience for me. How about you?

 

[BetterCallSaul]

Wasn't claim A having an arm? That's touch...one feels their arm...Like with their nervous system.

 

[Christian Liberty]

No thanks. I won't throw my pearls before swine.

Are you slipping into hypercalvinism here?

According to Matthew 28:19-20, we ARE supposed to try to make a disciple out of him, whether he is of the elect or not being something that only God knows.

I'll get back to this thread later, but the short version is this:

Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

Romans 6:23- For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

AND

John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[erowe1]

Also let's say that we spend the next page debating the validity of believing in anything that you can't sense. Let's say that everyone on earth accepts this- that doesn't answer why this or that particular faith. Why not faith in Mithra or Kronos or Kukulkan or Homer Simpson?

We need to get past the "let's say..." and agree that, yes, as a matter of fact, every single person on earth does believe things that they can't argue for based on their senses. To do so would be logically impossible. There are zero exceptions to this.

As long as anybody thinks this illogical nonsense of, "I don't believe in X because I only believe in what I can detect with my 5 senses," has any validity, then no logic at all will be of any use in trying to persuade them of anything.

 

[erowe1]

Wasn't claim A having an arm?

No. See post 102.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

well give me one example then

 

[erowe1]

well give me one example then

One example of what?

 

[otherone]

As long as anybody thinks this illogical nonsense of, "I don't believe in X because I only believe in what I can detect with my 5 senses," has any validity, then no logic at all will be of any use in trying to persuade them of anything.

But how can someone perceive your pearls without resorting to his senses? Vulcan Mind-Meld?

 

[erowe1]

But how can someone perceive your pearls without resorting to his senses? Vulcan Mind-Meld?

There's nothing wrong with using one's senses.

 

[Sola_Fide]

personal experience for me. How about you?

You cannot conclude that anything is true based on personal experience. Why? Because no one has universal experience of past, present, and future events everywhere. This is the fallacy of induction. No valid argument can be constructed based on your experience.