[SPLIT] Christian pacifism

ClaytonB said:
God the Holy Spirit, its Author.

If you do not have the Holy Spirit, you can never "interpret" it, neither finally nor in any other way (2 Cor. 4:4). And if you do have the Holy Spirit, then we had better be coming to essentially the same "interpretation" -- that is, understanding -- because God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

The serpentine view of Scripture as something that can "mean whatever you want it to mean, with enough interpretation" is repugnant to both reason and faith -- the Bible clearly and plainly says many things that are not open to any "interpretation" and all of the disputes over core biblical teaching regarding matters of faith derives not from any lack of clarity in the language of Scripture, but from the blindness of carnality (2 Cor. 4;4) of those who dare to pose as believers, while being no such thing. In short, those who do not have the Holy Spirit will have a million "interpretations" but all who have the Holy Spirit will have just one, univocal understanding of Scripture (Acts 4:32) because they are all taught by God (John 6:45). Those who do not hesitate to speak up loudly and proclaim their opinions on the basis of "apostolic succession", or "church tradition" or anything else, are not speaking from the Spirit, they are speaking from carnal pride.

God the Holy Spirit doesn't need any earthly assistance with enforcing order in the church, Acts. 5:1ff.
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What if I say the Holy Spirit tells me your interpretation is wrong?
 
familydog said:
"Orthodoxy" is just the adherence to right belief or doctrine, especially as defined by the historic, authoritative teachings of the Christian faith rooted in Scripture and affirmed by the early church. I assume you're referring to the Orthodox Church. And yes, through tradition and Apostolic tradition, this is correct.
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I can't tell from this what your answer to my question is.

You asked ClaytonB if he gets to have the final interpretation of God's word, as if Protestantism leaves him in some different position with respect to that question than the position you are in as an Orthodox Christian. But from your answer it appears that you are in the exact same position he is. Both you and he are obligated to accept the teachings of God's word as you understand them.
 
Invisible Man said:
I can't tell from this what your answer to my question is.

You asked ClaytonB if he gets to have the final interpretation of God's word, as if Protestantism leaves him in some different position with respect to that question than the position you are in as an Orthodox Christian. But from your answer it appears that you are in the exact same position he is. Both you and he are obligated to accept the teachings of God's word as you understand them.
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No. This is a basic theological difference between Orthodoxy/Catholicism and Protestantism. The latter relies on Sola Scriptura, which is belief that Scripture alone is the ultimate and final authority for Christian faith and practice, above all church traditions or human teachings. The former believes that an earthly authority is necessary to settle theological disputes, as what set down by Christ and the Apostles.

This is why Protestantism has 100,000 different denominations who all disagree on the same text. "Cause the Holy Spirit told them that they were correct in their interpretation.
 
familydog said:
No. This is a basic theological difference between Orthodoxy/Catholicism and Protestantism. The latter relies on Sola Scriptura, which is belief that Scripture alone is the ultimate and final authority for Christian faith and practice, above all church traditions or human teachings. The former believes that an earthly authority is necessary to settle theological disputes, as what set down by Christ and the Apostles.

This is why Protestantism has 100,000 different denominations who all disagree on the same text. "Cause the Holy Spirit told them that they were correct in their interpretation.
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Does this entity that settles theological disputes have a way of communicating its verdicts to you, as an individual Christian.
 
familydog said:
What if I say the Holy Spirit tells me your interpretation is wrong?
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Then at least one of us is anathema, 1 Cor. 14:33, Gal. 1:8,9, etc.

The part of wisdom in theological discussion is to follow the principle of charity to the fullest degree -- the wise discussant will defer final judgment which, ultimately, belongs to God (Luke 6:37,38). Fratricide in this case is potentially eternally fatal. Thus, there is no room for partisanship in such discussions, the only focus ought to be on what has God told us about the way things are, and how can we know what he has told us. If we are both truly listening to God, then we will necessarily converge on the same answer for the core questions of the faith. The name of Jesus is the starting-point (Phil. 2:5-11), and further discussion goes from there. This is the only way that true unification can occur in the worldwide church (John 17:23 and context).
 
Invisible Man said:
Does this entity that settles theological disputes have a way of communicating its verdicts to you, as an individual Christian.
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Yes, they are called ecumenical councils. Even Protestants do not deny the conclusions reached in many. Protestants all agree in the full divinity of Christ. That was decided in the First Council of Nicaea. Protestants all agree with the trinitarian nature of God. This was decided in the first two Councils.
 
familydog said:
Yes, they are called ecumenical councils. Even Protestants do not deny the conclusions reached in many. Protestants all agree in the full divinity of Christ. That was decided in the First Council of Nicaea. Protestants all agree with the trinitarian nature of God. This was decided in the first two Councils.
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And who gets to have the final interpretation of the written statements that are issued by the ecumenical councils?
 
This discussion really ought to be split to peace through religion.

When Jesus had people harvesting on the Sabbath and the Pharisees rebuked him, He said the Law was made for man, not God. He set down the Law, but He didn't use commandments to do it. He used parables because circumstances exist, and the same act could be absolutely against that Law in this situation but completely lawful in another. Nobody can, or should, look to their religion's head for every decision they make; that would be crippling. And conventional laws are a straitjacket because one size never fits all.

Invisible Man said:
And who gets to have the final interpretation of the written statements that are issued by the ecumenical councils?
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What does that even mean? Who gets to have the final interpretation of To Kill a Mockingbird? Either those, too, help bring people closer to God, or they're useless. But each person can only approach God according to their own understanding and ability.
 
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Invisible Man said:
And who gets to have the final interpretation of the written statements that are issued by the ecumenical councils?
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The Bishops who convened them, that were given their authority through Apostolic succession, which has a foundation in Scripture.
 
acptulsa said:
What does that even mean? Who gets to have the final interpretation of To Kill a Mockingbird? Either those, too, help bring people closer to God, or they're useless. But each person can only approach God according to their own understanding and ability.
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Good question.
 
familydog said:
The Bishops who convened them, that were given their authority through Apostolic succession, which has a foundation in Scripture.
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Do those bishops have a way of communicating their interpretations of the ecumenical councils to you, as an individual Christian?
 
acptulsa said:
Oh, that's not necessarily so. Two people can disagree, for example, on how best to serve God, and because they have different talents to offer, they can both be right.
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And even if they're not both right, the one who's wrong is not necessarily anathema.
 
Invisible Man said:
And even if they're not both right, the one who's wrong is not necessarily anathema.
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You're missing the point -- the point is that if I speak from a spirit of pride and tell someone, "The Holy Spirit has told me you are wrong!", I am not only lying, I am actually committing an act of blasphemy because I am making the Holy Spirit seem to be contradicting himself. Dragging the Holy Spirit into a theological debate to score debate-points is playing with spiritual nukes... someone is definitely going to get hurt (Isa. 48:11, Acts 5:1ff, etc.)

Firedog is trying to cast doubt on the idea that God the Holy Spirit can regulate the church without some kind of human administrative order, but we already have the clear example of the first-century church... God is completely able to keep order in the household of faith. Does God usually do this through the bishops? Obviously, yes, that's why Jesus founded the church. Nevertheless, God's hands are not shackled, he has no obligation of any kind to go through the church. And when the church itself is producing carnal fruits, why would God work through the church in the ordinary way in order to correct her? It makes no sense. Rather, God presses down upon the church with the same kind of insuperable power as he did upon the Israelites: listen, or be punished, and if you still won't listen after being punished, you will be scattered and utterly destroyed. That this is the way God works in the world in both the Old and New Testament ages is clear from the seven letters in Rev. 1-3. None of us gets to "make it up as we go", regardless of our historical, political, natal, familial, tribal or ecclesiastical pedigree.

We are all, alike, creatures before God and whatever distinctions God has determined to confer upon sinners in the church, he will do so of his own accord and by his own determination, he does not need an administrative rubber-stamp from "the bishops", let alone "the Pope". The only men who ever negotiated with God (Abraham, Moses, David, etc.) did so as wretched curs hanging on for dear life against the blistering presence of God's holiness, begging for mercy not only for their own sins, but also for those of their people. They were not autocrats, they were not sceptre-wielding "popes" or authoritarian bishops handing down hierarchical "authority" from "above". God has a magisterium, but the magisterium of this Age is purely provisional and probationary... we are God's people if we obey, if we believe, if we produce the fruits of repentance, and so on, and so forth (compare Deut. 28 with Romans 11:21). Anyone who is not converging on these foundational truths about who God is, does not have the Holy Spirit, they are speaking from carnality, they are simply playing church, they are no true bishop or congregant, no matter their pedigree (Matt 3:9, Luke 13:28).
 
ClaytonB said:
Adding the word "hawk" to peace cannot make it a slur. Peace is inherently good and is one of the fruits of the Spirit. No one can oppose peace unless they are a servant of the devil. Yes, the stakes really are that high. Choose your words carefully. No political objective you have is worth spending eternity in hell.
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The problem with Peacehawks is that they don't really want peace, they want the war so they can say "I told you so" and complain.
 
Swordsmyth said:
I'm the one truly seeking peace, as is Trump.
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I love it when you contradict yourself between the capital letter and the period.

"I'm supporting peace by supporting the guy who is so completely not supporting peace I have to include him as an afterthought!"

I have one word for you. Bolton. How long did it take Mr. If You Question Whether Bunker Busters Penetrated You're Dissing Brave Pilots to fire the guy?

Anti Globalist said:
GuOfXE7WwAAL5Oh
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